Author Topic: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck  (Read 138635 times)

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2016, 08:12:53 PM »
That's cool. I zoomed in and the truck ARN is 171-7?? Checking the ARN list, it has to be one of 4, unless it's like mine and not listed as an F1 with Abbey crane. 171-717, 171-720, 171-721 or 171-723. All of the trucks around this ARN range are listed as 1967 models but none of these 4 are on the SVN list. Interestingly, the other ARN's around these ones are all listed as standard F1's that went to SVN.
Mine is 180-971 and isn't on the ARN list as having an Abbey crane. I had hoped that the numbers on the tac plate holders might point to where it served.

Oh and the Landrover on the left looks like a new Vietnam find. The ARN is 113-849 and the ARN list has it as an "Automotive Repair Shop, Truck mounted, 3/4 ton, GS, Garage" Adelaide auction. 19/07/1993. No mention of it in the Series 2A list as having been overseas and it's not on the SVN list.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 08:21:43 AM by Ravvin »

Offline THE BOOGER

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2016, 10:30:28 PM »
Did the carriers get fitted with the T50 in the field?
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Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2016, 02:00:34 PM »
Just a minor update.
I spent most of yesterday using paint stripper and a scraper to remove the dozen or so layers of paint off one of the rear hubs, between the wheel studs and the axle studs. The paint stripper could only get through a few layers at a time, so it took 4 coats. The last layer came off easily and left the original red oxide layer, except where the rust was lifting it. With it all cleaned back, I gave it a good going over with a wire wheel in the drill and got it primed.
Next job was cleaning up the brake adjuster and the expander unit. Here's a tip. Don't try degreasing these while having a shower. You might save some water, but the old moly grease is really hard to get off the porcelain and your skin. The degreaser can be a bit hard on parts of the anatomy too.

With everything ready, today I got to try out my new bearing packer. This is pretty simple, just being 2 metal cones that connect with a threaded hollow tube with a hole near the bottom and a grease nipple on top. You put the bearing on the bottom cone, which then seals around the inside of the bearing, tighten the top one down until it seals on the top outside of the race, and pump it full of grease until it comes out the bottom of the race, between the rollers. Then I found it best to loosen the cones a bit, turn the outer race/rollers a few turns, re-tighten and pump a bit more grease in. As I had already degreased and cleaned the bearings, I was able to scrape all the excess grease off and put it back in the tub. In the end, it's just as messy as packing it by hand, but you know it is fully packed with no air pockets.
Before I could pack the bearings though, I had to sort out the grease gun. I had been using cartridges in it as it was just for small jobs up to now, like greasing my Discovery when I serviced it. A cartridge usually lasted me a year, unless the oils leaked out and it dried up sooner. This truck just eats grease. I bought a 5kg tub and so far used half of it just on the 2 back wheels. After pulling the old cartridge out, I cleaned it all and found I had to move a large o'ring so it sealed the plunger to the inner walls. Next fun job was getting the grease in there. I used a narrow scraper and stuffed it in, pushing it down to get the air bubbles out. After it was about 1/4 full, I bumped it and the plunger shot the entire load of grease out. Luckily, it all landed on my cleanish grease rag, so I was able to reuse it.

With the bearings packed, I refitted the brake unit and the adjuster, put the back bearing in the hub and managed to get the new seal in first go. The hub went on fairly easily this time and I was able to get the outer bearing in and the first lock nut tensioned up without getting too much blue grease on me. Lock washer and outer nut with seal went on next and then it started raining. I knew things were going too well for it to last.

I'm not sure what to do next. I could rebuild the hubs on the intermediate axle, but the seals aren't leaking on them. I haven't checked the diff oil in that axle, but it would make sense to change the oil now, as I am putting new oil in the back one. If I rebuild the hubs now, at best I will find it all in good condition and all I need is to put new seals in the back. I will know that everything in there is in good condition. If I don't do it now, something is sure to go wrong later, miles from home, in the dark/rain/bush and will be 10x harder to fix.

I still have to bend up new brake lines for the rear axle. I think I will also pull both master cylinders out and give them an overhaul. Like the intermediate axle, I will then know that they are all working properly. I'll make new brake lines as I go.

The days are getting longer and there is more light when I get home from work now, so I should be posting more frequent updates as I get lots of little things done.
I still have to sand blast all of the dust shields off the backs of the hubs so I can repaint them all. The problem is that I have to do it after dark as I can't see inside the sand blasting cabinet if there is any overhead light. I have a roll of black weed matting, so maybe I should make up a large box frame and cover it, so it blocks the light from above, behind and from the sides. My poor little compressor struggles to keep up. I've worn out 2 ceramic nozzles so far, but at least they are cheap and easy to find.

Greg.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2016, 05:25:54 PM »
Hi all.
I got home a bit early today so looked for something simple to do before it gets dark or rains again.
I want to remove the brake master cylinders and give them a clean and overhaul before fitting new pipes. There are only 3 bolts and 2 pipes to undo to remove it, so that's pretty simple.
No, it's really not. They put a steel frame as a step over the front fuel tank so you can service the Abbey crane, This means you can only get a 6th of a turn on the spanner when you undo the air line into the actuator. Eventually, I got it off. Then the flare nut on the steel brake line out of the master cylinder seized on the pipe and wanted to twist the end off. I didn't want to do that, as that section of pipe has a specific set of bends in it so it lines up with the master cylinder but doesn't rub where it goes through the chassis rail. I needed to undo the banjo bolt at the end to release the brass block that the flare nut screws into. The problem is if I undo that, the brake fluid will run all over the fuel tank and there is no room to get a tin in there to catch it.
Plan B. Remove the rear fuel tank. This was fairly easy. The fuel pipe unscrewed fairly easily, the 2 wires for the fuel gauge came off and the nuts on the Tee bolts that tension the retaining straps came off after a good squirt of CRC and a bit of a touch-up with the wire brush. When I lifted the tank out, I noticed that it rattled. Something loose in there.
With the tank off, the banjo bolt came out and absolutely no brake fluid ran out. The reservoir was empty. That might explain why the stroke indicator came all the way out. Oh well, I was going to rebuild it anyway.
I had planned on removing both fuel tanks to clean and repaint them at some point, as they were looking a bit rough and showing a bit of rust. The stone guards underneath need a bit of panel beating and some paint also. When I remove the other tank and the mud guards and retaining struts I will have clear access to get at the outside of the chassis rail and the channel section that fits between it and the tray. The chassis rail is galvanised and the paint is flaking off. The channel looks like just mild steel and it is rusting. I will wire-wheel both then prime and repaint them.
With the tank out and the air and brake lines off, I just had to undo the 3 bolts that hold the mounting bracket to the chassis rail. To do this, I had to get under the truck, just in front of the transfer case, which is black, oily and covered in caked on road dust and mud. The 3 bolts have nuts and washers on the inside of the chassis rail. To get to the nuts you need to have tiny hands and arms with 2 or more elbows or wrist joints. The 3 nuts are right between the first fixed cross-member and the removable cross-member that the transfer case hangs from. I can get to one, with a long extension bar and the bendy fitting, but I can't turn that and hold a spanner on the other side at the same time. I need an offsider. I also don't think I can get at the other 2 nuts and be able to move the ratchet handle. I'll round up all my extension bars and see if I have enough to reach across the top of the transfer case. Either way, I don't see how I can get the nuts and washers back on once it is all cleaned up. Maybe a blob of grease or a dot of super glue to hold the washer to the nut long enough to get it started might work.
I have a suspicion I am going to have to drop the transfer case out. It's totally filthy and I need to get it spotless before attempting to get a roadworthy. It would be worth it just to fit all new modern seals. No more leaks. Also with it out I can get at the air actuator on the winch and see if it is actually engaging.
I have a week off work coming up in October, so I'll have a think about it and see what other options arise.
I took the fuel gauge out of the tanks so I could see inside and found some treasure. In the bottom was the missing dipstick shaft and a spare float for the gauge. The inside is spotless, with no sign of rust or residue. You can clearly see the galvanising.



There is no smell of fuel in the tank. It must have been empty for a long time. The cork seal in the cap has shrunk and doesn't actually seal anything. I'll make a new one up after I clean up the outside of the tank and repaint it. The padding under the retaining straps looks like felt. It has rust flakes from the strap poking through it so I will clean the straps up, repaint them and make some new padding. I have a big sheet of thin conveyor belting that might work.

Oh well. Off to help my mum out tomorrow, so more updates on Sunday night.

Greg.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 06:25:38 PM by Ravvin »

Offline john.k

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #64 on: September 18, 2016, 06:53:51 PM »
Tanks are tinned,not gal.Zinc reacts with fuel to make a white flaky deposit which blocks carbys.Youre doing a great job there.Id love to go to one of the shows down south.Where guys bring in tanks on petrol Kaisers and floats.Up here in Qld the average collector is so tight they wont even run motors once a year.A thought with your crane...make sure the slew controll valve is working and hasnt been gutted.Otherwise the crane jib will run away downhill if used anywhere but on the level.Its in the jumble of pipes .The Hiab cranes had the lot included in the controll bank.Regards John.

Offline Diana Alan

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2016, 10:06:40 AM »
The felt under the tank bands retains water and aids rust development. While not original a number of people up here in Sydney (including myself) have replaced the felt with rubber available from Clark Rubber.  From memory the rubber I used was 10mm thick.
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Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2016, 06:38:48 PM »
Thank for all that. Yes, they are definitely tinned, not galvanised.
I just spent some time cleaning them up with the wire wheel and where the paint was flaking or wholly intact, it just flew off with the lightest touch. There the tinning on the outside had worn away, the light surface rust that had formed was a lot tougher to remove.



As you can see in the pics, I haven't finished yet. The filler neck is soft soldered to the main tank, with a lot of excess solder that was shaped and smoothed.
In the second pic, you can see the big problem. Under the tank bands were actual rust pits. So far, 2 of them are right through, so when I cleaned them out, I found I have holes to patch.
The bottom of the tank doesn't seem to have these pits and holes, but had a light coat of surface rust which I have cleaned off. The holes were all under the section of tank strap that was really stuck to the tank. It actually separated the layers of felt, rather than peeling off the metal. I'd guess the water soaking into the felt over the years was what did it. I'll definitely be replacing them with the rubber strips as suggested.

It looks like someone has cleaned the tank out not long back as the drain plug is clean and it has a nice new copper washer on it.
I have a bit of panel-beating to do as the whole bottom of the tank is dented in. There is also a deep sharp dent on the front where something has jabbed into it. The bottom will be easy enough. I will use a broom handle through the fuel float hole and pop it back out. The front dent will be harder. I will have to find something suitably shaped to use as a dolly from the inside and beat it out properly. Now that I have the LPG/Oxy gear, I can heat it and cool it later to shrink the stretched metal back.

How do you all suggest I patch the holes? I'm hopeless at welding, but one of the guys at work is good with thin metal. I could braze them up, or silver or soft solder them. Soft solder might be a bit soft though, and it should bond into the steel of the tank for best results, I guess.
I will borrow the inspection camera from work and check inside the tank. I know the section of bottom that I can see through the fuel gauge hole looked perfect, but there may be more rust where I can't see.

As the tinning has worn through where the light surface rust is, I will etch-prime the whole thing before repainting it. Hopefully the inside is ok. If not, I will have to re-coat it.

Greg.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 06:31:42 PM by Ravvin »

Offline Chazza

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2016, 07:46:51 PM »
Thank for all that. Yes, they are definitely tinned, not galvanised.
...Now that I have the LPG/Oxy gear, I can heat it and cool it later to shrink the stretched metal back.

How do you all suggest I patch the holes? I'm hopeless at welding, but one of the guys at work is good with thin metal. I could braze them up, or silver or soft solder them. Soft solder might be a bit soft though, and it should bond into the steel of the tank for best results, I guess. ...

Greg.

Apologies if I have sent this link before, but if the holes are small use glue http://www.remlr.com/ look under "Restoration information" on the left of the page.

Failing that, soft solder a patch onto the tank, or use body solder to fill the hole. Use a copper soldering iron; the sort which you heat up in a fire so that you can get enough heat into the metal.

Don't weld unless you have it cleaned properly, or there will be a risk of a fatal explosion. In any case the metal will be so thin it will probably make the hole worse,

Cheers Charlie
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Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2016, 09:38:29 PM »
Thanks for that.
The holes are both about the same size, down in the bottom of the deepest rust pits. There was a scab of rust on top which came off when I touched it with the wire wheel. The holes are about the size of a toothpick, but I have to clean more rusted material out before it gets filled, so they could end up larger. There were still sparks coming off the wire wheel, so there is still corroded stuff in there.
There are a couple of other rust scabs that I need to check carefully before I finish. My wire wheel went bald.

The tank appears to have been flushed out. There is absolutely no smell of petrol in it at all. The guys at work recently rebuilt 3x Kombis. All had a lot of rust cut out and patches welded in. That stuff was pretty thin and their welds were really neat. I had a go on some scrap pieces and managed to blow a lot of holes in them, so I wouldn't attempt welding this with the Mig, but they would do it for me if I ask.

Looking at the line where the strap sat, there is a lot of shallow pitting, with a few deeper divots and the 2 deep pits where the holes are. I used to be pretty good at brazing, so maybe I could run some along the pitted section and clean it off flush. It will be under the new rubber strip, under the steel strap, so it won't be seen. It will be painted too.
Silver solder would flow easier, but I'm not sure how well it would bind to the steel/tin combo of the tank, although there isn't likely to be any tin left where the pitting is.

I just want it to be properly sealed, and to last. I had rust removed from a Holden panel van years ago, and within 5 years it was back, worse than ever. I want to do it right the first time.

Greg.

Offline dodgeguy1942

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2016, 09:47:23 PM »
I find that oxy is the best way to weld up tanks. Then use a tank sealer

Offline Chazza

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2016, 10:41:02 AM »
G'day Greg,
If you are determined to weld it then you need to consider the following:

1. Welding successfully relies on both pieces of sheet-metal being the same thickness. In your photos the corroded areas have been reduced considerably in thickness, so therefore they need to be removed and new metal inserted. If you don't do this, the thin metal will melt into larger and larger holes and the holey problem will become worse not better. In addition to which, the metal needs to be clean on both sides of the weld; no rust, paint; dissimilar metal coatings, etc. Getting inside the tank is problematic.

2. If you, or someone else, cuts away the corroded metal and makes accurate patches that fit perfectly; then it can be welded successfully. However; because the panel being repaired is large and flat, it will distort badly and it would be impossible to get a dolly, or grinder behind the seams to stretch and shrink the metal back to shape. Don't forget that this method would require 4 welds, plus the ends of the patches. In my opinion and experience as a metal-shaper and car restorer of 30 + years, I think welding will distort the tank top so badly, that it will always look terrible.

So the alternatives are:

1. Solder to fill the pits and small holes. We know this works because the filler-neck is soldered and it was common practice to solder tank joins in those days, in conjunction with rivets and folded seams. Soldering requires bare metal, so I think a blast with a small and cheap sand blaster will work well, but you have to get the sand out of the tank later.

2. Use glue as suggested before, which is petrol-proof; doesn't cause distortion; will seal up pinholes; grabs any grit and rust in the tank and holds it forever; and is very cheap.

3. Use a combination of both of the above.

4. Have a new tank made, bearing in mind your earlier post about the dent in the end.

If you consider no.4 as a viable option, I have all the gear to make one and I don't mind helping  for the cost-of-materials if you need some help. The disadvantage of course, is the cost of freight across Australia.

I apologise if this post seems over-bearing, so please accept it as advice only and you can of course do whatever you like, with your tank,

Cheers Charlie
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S2A 109" GS '63
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Offline Bluebell One-eight

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #71 on: September 24, 2016, 08:48:57 PM »
All good advice, and a little extra. Don't assume all is safe because there is no odour. The industry advice is to steam or boil a tank for a minimum of two hours before welding. The problem is that some residual fumes can be trapped in the metal pores and heat will release them and any ignition source could be embarrassing. An old friend had an experience many years ago that illustrates this very well. He had an old J series Bedstead that had died probably a decade earlier. It was to be scrapped and the tank had been emptied when the truck was parked with the lid off. He decided to cut the chassis with the oxy to fit the thing in a bin. The fuel line came out of the tank, along a cross member and up the inside of the side rail on the opposite side of the tank. When cutting through the chassis the line was heated enough to start some sort of combustion in the pipe and it traveled down the line to the tank and BOOM.  He was lucky no injury, but it might have been different if he was near the tank. Caution is the way! There are specialists that do this sort of work and if you really want to weld it then that would be the way if the price wasn't too high. Keep us posted on the progress.

Offline Lionelgee

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #72 on: September 25, 2016, 10:45:30 AM »
Hello Ravvin,

For the holes in the tank you could find an older radiator repairs place and they could repair the tank for you. Not sure if a younger radiator operator would have the skills and experience to do the job. So an older tradie should be able to help you out.

Kind Regards
Lionel

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #73 on: September 25, 2016, 10:11:21 PM »
Hi all, sorry for not getting back to you all earlier, I have been up at mum's, getting 240v set up in her house. Now she can flick a switch inside to turn the inverter on in the shed and has all the lights changed over to 240v. Just need to work out where she wants all the power points, run the cables and hook it all into the breaker box. Maybe next weekend. :)

Thanks for all the info, offers and suggestions. It's exactly why I find this forum so useful; I can usually find detailed info on what I need to do next, or someone who has done it before and already found the tips and traps, saving me making them again. Maybe.

Saturday morning I ran into town to see what I could find in the way of soldering options. I had already decided arc/mig welding wouldn't be good as the metal is very thin. When I was using the wire wheel on the grinder to clean the flaky paint off the top, the metal was bulging up and down just from the small amount of heat that generated. As it cooled, it laid flat again. Around town, most places had their weekend staff on roster and were not that knowledgeable. One didn't know what brass filler rods were for and another wanted to sell me a pack of 10x 45% silver-soldering rods for $110. I thanked him and left quickly.

I could only see the 2 small holes that show in the pics above, but in a few places I was getting sparks as the wire wheel went over some areas where the metal straps sat. When I had a really close look at these spots, I realised that the rust had made a sort of raised scab under the felt where the rivets held it to the strap. It was almost like the crust you get when stick welding that chips off, (if someone other than me does it). When I worked these spots over with the wire wheel a bit more, they cleaned out to bare metal. In the end I had around 7 small holes, mostly pin-head size, at the bottom of small craters.

I went back into town to check with another place. They have been around for years, have some really ancient and hard-to-get parts and stuff out the back, but can be frighteningly expensive, so I always ask first.
I showed them the pics and explained what I was doing and, similar to what Chazza suggested about gluing it, they recommended that I use some stuff called CRC Minute Mend. It is similar to that Knead-It 2 part putty. The blurb says "CRC Minute Mend is a fast convenient epoxy repair putty that mixes in just one minute for permanent emergency repairs. It bonds to wet or damp surfaces and can even be applied under water."
The idea is that I work with small sections at a time. Knead this stuff up, force it into the grooves and holes with a paint scraper and then sand it flush once it's fully cured. I will paint over it later, but it will be under the new rubber strip replacing the old felt padding, so won't be seen.

I gave the whole tank a coat of Galmet Ironize, the rust converter/sealer. It is supposed to convert any remaining rust to iron chelate, which is inert. It has no effect on bare metal. Once it has done it's job, it forms a coating like varnish which you can paint over. I think the primer would work better on the bare metal so before I fill the holes and prime the tank, I will clean it off with thinners. The boss is going on another 2 week holiday starting Tuesday, so I foresee some short days coming up. I hope to get it cleaned, patched, primed and painted for next weekend.

After I cleaned the tank and ran around town until everywhere I wanted to go was shut at lunch, I came home to have another go at the damn driver's side brake master cylinder. With the use of vice-grips and much swearing, I got one nut and bolt out. That left 2 bolts. Interestingly, these 2 come in from opposite sides, so I have a nut and bolt head on each side. The nut on the outside came off without holding the bolt head under the truck, so either the bolt is seized in the aluminium casting or chassis rail, or it has a captured washer on the inside, stopping it from turning. I can't get into a position where I can see. It's in a narrow gap between the fixed cross-member and the removable one that the transfer case hangs off. I can get a finger onto the nut below it, but not a socket, as it is directly in line with the bracket that holds the hand-brake rod pivot. This is welded to the transfer case cross-member. I can't get my hand in to get a spanner on it, but I just realised that if I cut a hole in the deck timber just above, I might be able to get the ring end of a combination spanner onto it and it would lock against the chassis rail if I turn the bolt from outside.

Cutting a hole in the deck isn't a problem, other than that I have to move the 3 almost new spare tires that are stacked and strapped down and are right in the way. Typical. I have to replace all the timber in the deck anyway as it is rotten. When you look up from underneath, there are big patches of white fungus growing on it. I plan on using Southern Bluegum, Eucalyptus globulus. It's a harder timber than the "Tas Oak" milled around here and has a much higher durability rating. I just need to find a sawmill on the east coast that is still operating and see what sizes they can provide. The boards can be oversized as I have a bench planer and thicknesser to get them to their final sizes. The issue is finding someone milling the stuff who would do a small run of 12 boards at 4.5m lengths.

Anyway, that will do for tonight. Thanks for taking the time to read through my thread.

Greg.

Offline STDDIVER

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2016, 12:50:16 PM »
Hi Greg, really enjoy your thread and I am going through similar issues.  Firstly, I have been restoring a number of old 1956 Jerry cans, ex army and as would be expected, they come standard at this age with leaks.  So after a wet weekend of stripping rust and galvanizing, the leaky cans are off to the local radiator repairer who will solder up the leaks and run a thicker coating of solder over the thinner, sensitive areas of metal.  As you have suggested, he is an 'older' tradesman and knows his business.  His advice and recommendations have worked well for him with no returns in the past after treating many hundreds or tanks/cans. 

Next item, near where I live there are a number of hardwood mills privately owned and I have approached one to get new deck timber for my F1.  I am following their advice on correct timber type as close to the original as possible.  The timber will be kiln dried, and when I get my quote I am happy to share this with you as it may be cheaper or more expensive as the case may be.  Anyway, it may give you a reference point, or even a contact to follow for your own timber. 

Cheers for now -
Frank