Author Topic: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck  (Read 143960 times)

Offline Chazza

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2016, 04:50:38 PM »
If you can't buy seals,   it may not be a bad thing if the oil reaches the bearings. In fact Land Rovers used to have this facility.

Oil is a much better lubricant than grease; wheel bearings running in oil last for hundreds of thousands of km,

Cheers Charlie
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Offline GGG

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2016, 06:01:16 PM »
I agree with Chazza, keeping the oil out of the hubs on a series Landrover is about the same as King Canute commanding it to stop raining. I only took Mk 3's for a 12,000 mile service (which included wheel bearings off) twice and on both occasions there was oil in the hubs and the crafties didn't seem too concerned. Mind you with a Landrover you have to grease the bearings initially as it takes a while for the oil to arrive in the hubs.
Geoff O.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2016, 08:41:27 PM »
Thanks for that. I chased all along the coast, tried all of the different bearing suppliers and engineering places but nobody had ever seen anything like these seals before. Iveco has no listing for the IHC part number and none of the other places could find it in any of their cross-reference books.

The 2 seals I have seen so far look to be in decent condition, no cuts, cracks or apparent wear, so I will reuse them. I will get new inner seals as they are cheap and that is where the leaks have occurred. I think that if the diff breathers hadn't been blocked with mud nests, then there would have been no pressure build-up and the oil wouldn't have been forced past the outer seal to mix with the oil.
As you can see in the earlier picture, the diff oil was a foul orange colour. The grease in the driver's side hub was definitely mixed with it, but the passenger's side was still bright blue, just very runny, even at 8 degrees.

I plan to spend what little time I have on Sunday pulling the driver's side apart, cleaning and repacking the bearings and hub, then stripping and servicing the brake and adjuster expanders. With the brakes off and the stub axle (?) unbolted, I should be able to clean out the axle housing. I think if I jack that side up and spray diesel or degreaser down the tube, I should be able to scrub it out with a rag fixed to a broom handle. If I had a steam cleaner I could stick it in the tube and really clean it out. I might try spraying degreaser down it and then blasting it with the pressure washer. With the drain bung out of the diff and a bucket under it, I should get the worst of it out. I'll pull the axle out on the other side so I can do the entire axle. Once it's clean, I can use a hot air paint stripper on low heat to blow air through the diff to dry it out before sealing it all up until I can put it back together.
Just my luck it will rain all Sunday then fine up when I go back to work.

Another job on the urgent list is to pop the passenger's side roof back up. It has sunken down after having the boom ding in the side and when water pools around the turret hatch, it leaks in and puddles on the floor. I think a scissor jack and block of wood should do the job until I can get it un-dented and fixed properly.

Greg.

Offline STDDIVER

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2016, 09:20:13 PM »
Hi Ravvin,

Try using the frayed end of a flexible steel wire cable on the end of a power drill to clean out the diff tubing.  Before cutting the FSW cable, bronze it solid with the oxy to give the drill chuck a good foundation to grip onto. When cutting the wire this bronze stops the cables from spreading and running. I have bronzed the cable onto an old 1/2 drive socket and used a pneumatic socket wrench or a drill as a power source. Measure the length you want with a bit to spare. The other end can be the frayed end of your winch cable. Just spread the ends to give you the diameter you want. Even the old frayed winch cable has a good use. I have used this offshore many times in cleaning piping and it works well without gouging depending on the thickness of the FSW being used and the amount of teasing given and speed of the drill.

I really enjoy your thread and look forwards to every new installment,

Frank

Offline Lionelgee

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2016, 10:34:35 PM »
G'day Greg,

Do these links take you to the same part number 52753HA? It accesses a range of exchange parts from different manufacturers.

Accessed 29th July 2016 from, http://www.yoyopart.com/oem/10239937/ihc-52753ha.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I found another forum in the US of A which describes ...

M5H6 International Harvester Rear Axle Oil Seal Kits
Post a reply
3 posts • Page 1 of 1
M5H6 International Harvester Rear Axle Oil Seal Kits

Post by M38A1 MP Jeep » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:06 pm
I have M5H6 International Harvester Rear Axle Oil Seal Kits for sale - IH part number 141163-H

Consists of:

2 52753HA Rear wheel Bearing Nut Seals
2 54533H Rear Hub Wheel Seal
1 77819H Pinion Shaft Oil Seal
1 59871H Pinion Shaft Oil Seal Felt

This is new old stock, 1953 dated, parrafin sealed boxed and not dried out or shrunken.

$30 plus shipping per kit.

Thanks

Jon

The forum link was accessed 29th July 2016 from http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=160493

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another site accessed 29th July 2016 from https://nationalstocknumber.info/part-number/I1-52753HA_003925368

I1-52753HA Plain Encased Seal
Cage 76680
Technical Definition
Seal, Plain Encased, also referenced with federal logistics item name code 04214 - A pliable rubber, felt, leather, or composition ring-shaped element, split or solid; with or without spring or spreader, having a metal shell on all or a portion of at least two of the outer surfaces. it may be designed to be either bolt mounted or pressmounted between fixed and moveable parts to form a tight and effective seal by the pressure of the spring or spreader or the resiliency inherent in the element material. excludes packing with retainer.
Technical Characteristics
Accommodated Shaft Diameter (ABVM):
2.594 inches nominal
Case Style (BHHL):
Flanged
Housing Bore Diameter (CPCW):
3.064 inches nominal
Material (MATT):
Rubber synthetic sealing element
Material (MATT):
Steel case
Seal Width (ADUC):
0.484 inches nominal
Sealing Element Style (CTQC):
Angular
National Stock Number (NSN)
5330-00-392-5368

I hope this is the right part for you?

Kind Regards
Lionel
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 10:53:30 PM by Lionelgee »

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2016, 11:01:40 PM »
Ah, sort of like the wire version of a whipper-snipper head. Thanks for that, Frank.
The inside isn't really rusty, there's just a layer of slimy, degraded oil. Somehow a lot of water has mixed with the oil and the stuff is almost like a jelly. Being the middle of winter down here wouldn't help either.

Lionel, that picture doesn't look much like my seal, but I can now take a list of those alternate part numbers in and see if anyone can find them in their books.  ;D
The NSN number on the page doesn't match the one in the RPS, but it may still be the right part. I'll do some searching using the alternate numbers and see if I can find full pics for comparison.
Thanks for the links, it might be a very handy cross-reference for future needed parts too.

Greg.

Offline Lionelgee

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2016, 11:05:21 PM »
G'day Greg,

Just found another site dated May 2016 which has a description and also a current link to a product on eBay in the US of A.

The post by kyoung on Thursday May 19, 2016 11:51 am suggests that ...

Download the MT97 parts manual in PDF format from here:

http://www.hansenwebdesign.com/truck/facts_manuals.html

then look in chapter 17 and 14 to get the part numbers



For the rear wheels, check this out. From looking at part numbers in MT97 manual it appears to be the exact same as for the R160 rear wheel seals. I see there are still 5 kits available:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/360483405541?_tr ... EBIDX%3AIT

M5H6 International Harvester Rear Axle Oil Seal Kits for 2.5 ton - IH part number 141163-H, Consists of:
2 52753HA Rear wheel Bearing Nut Seals
2 54533H Rear Hub Wheel Seal
1 77819H Pinion Shaft Oil Seal
1 59871H Pinion Shaft Oil Seal Felt


This site was accessed 29th July 2016 from http://oldihc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6833

Perhaps you could be in luck?

Kind Regards
Lionel
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 11:07:40 PM by Lionelgee »

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2016, 05:39:31 PM »
That's really helpful. I've made a list of all the different part/manufacturer numbers and I'll give them to the local guys tomorrow. If I can get them locally, I will save a lot on postage. Since eBay started using it's own postage system, the prices have gone through the roof.

Another listing I found has better pictures of the seals. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/370956280856?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I got stuck in today and got the hub stripped down. The rear axle brakes are the "puller" type, where the handbrake rod and the hydraulic system pull a rod out of the hub, causing the expander pistons out, via roller pins on a tapered ramp. I managed to get all of the parts off except the alloy housing attached to the brake slave cylinder. I have to look that section up in the manual and work out what holds it all together, as I need to clean it up before I reassemble it all.

As you can see in the first pic below, there is a big pile of rust flakes in the bottom of the axle. I need a decent degreaser before I can try cleaning it all out as the stuff I have now, a water-based degreaser from Supercheap, just doesn't do the job. I tried using it on the parts I pulled off today and I might as well have been using plain water. When I gave up and tipped it out, there were lumps of undissolved grease in the bottom of the tin. The odd thing is, the stuff you get from there in the red spray cans works really well. I remember using some stuff years ago that you actually diluted with turps, or maybe kero. It worked really well but was hard on paintwork. There's a big patch on our John Deere tractor that now looks Ford tractor blue.



The grease that I scraped out was orange like mashed pumpkin and it stunk. I have to finish cleaning out the bearings, but I may have to replace them both. There are signs that there has been water between the bearing and the shaft. They feel fairly smooth when I spin them, but it's hard to tell as they keep throwing out chunks of grease. I need to unbox my parts washer and give them all a good hose out. I'm running out of room to store all my tools and stuff. I'm spending almost as much time digging out and putting away the tools I need for even minor jobs as I am doing the actual work.

When I pulled the stub axle (?) off, I found that oil had been leaking out through the gasket seal. This was what had run down the back of the backplate that I had seen from behind. With the hub off, I could also see where the oil/water/grease mix had been leaking out past the rear seal and running down the front of the the backplate and into the brake drum. I gave the backplate a quick clean-up with the wire wheel and found that most of the paint had flaked off, so I will give it a better clean and degrease during the week after work if it isn't raining, and then repaint it.

There was no grease left in the expanders and the pistons had a few spots of rust on them, so that explains why they wouldn't return properly. I will give them a light clean with some fine wet & dry before putting them back together. I have to go easy as they are only chromed and show signs of it almost being worn through in a few places. We used to have a good lathe and computer-controlled milling machine in the shed at work, but the new owner didn't know how to use them so he sold them both. I could really use them now. Wouldn't take much to machine up a few sets of stainless pistons for the expanders. Oh well.

Greg.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 06:03:32 PM by Ravvin »

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2016, 05:36:23 PM »
Hi all.
I had almost a whole weekend to myself this time, so I got a bit done, even with the crap weather.
I started off by cleaning out the diff tube. I borrowed some pink degreaser from one of my contractor's service trucks during the week and mixed it up with kero, as per the directions. I lowered the vehicle stand on the driver's side, so it would run back out and squirted the mixture up the pipe. It seemed to be working, but needed a scrub so I took the handle off my broom, as it has a cap on the end with a hole through it to hang it up. Next I got 3 new Curly Girl pot scrubbers and tangled them together and stuck them on the end of the broom handle, tieing them in place with string through the hole. With this I was able to give the tube a really good scrub. I started at the outer end to see how it went, as I was a bit worried about strands getting free and getting into the diff, but it seemed to work well so I did the whole length. Looking up the pipe, there is a sort of restriction before it got to the diff, so I could feel when I was getting close. Every now and then I would give it a blast up the pipe with the pressure washer and another good dose of degreaser and another scrub. Finally, the stuff running out looked clean. I had the bung out of the diff housing and caught the oil/sludge/water that ran out in my big oil drain pan. Even when the tube was clean, there was still nasty stuff in the diff housing.

Next step was to pull all the hub and guts off the passenger side rear wheel so I could clean it out too. The brake drum came off with just a few taps this time, as I had coated the surface around the studs and where the drum fits to the hub with nickel-seize when I had it off last time. The bolts that hold the expander units/slave cylinders to the back plate were only finger tight, but at least they had the locking tabs on the washer/plate bent over, so they couldn't have unscrewed. With all the brake bits off, I was able to remove the back plate and the stub axle. Eww.



Luckily, this gunk hadn't pushed past the seal and mixed with the wheel bearing grease, which was still bright blue, but very runny, almost like a thick oil in places.
When pulling the brake shoes off the expander unit, I noticed that the expander pins weren't going all the way back in, even if I tapped on them. When I got the slave cylinder/expander unit out of the back of the housing, I saw this odd rubber thing between the spring and the aluminium spacer thing. No idea what it is, but the other side doesn't have one.



It's a bit hard to make out in that photo. I left my good camera at work. When I pull that slave unit apart I'll see what it is.

Next job was to clean this side axle tube too. I jacked up the other side and repeated the previous process and cleaned it out. After that, I replaced the Curly Girls with some clean rags and mopped both sides out, until the rags came out dry. I'm not sure what to do about the actual diff housing. I could pull out the filler bung and squirt degreaser in and then try to get the pressure washer close enough to get most of the jet in there. I can't think of a better way to clean it out short of dropping the rear drive shaft and removing the diff guts, and I REALLY don't want to do that out in a sloping paddock. I think for now I will just degrease and blast it through the bung hole and maybe later once it's registered and I have my Heavy Rigid license I can look at doing more at work on the concrete, with people around to help.

Once dry, I made a new gasket and gave it a coat of RTV Silicone Sealant and refitted the back plate, stub axle and the tin dust/dirt deflector using new high tensile bolts and lock nuts. I only did them up enough to pull the stub axle in lightly, then left it a few hours for the sealant to cure. Last thing today I will do them all up to 30 ft-lbs and that should be that.



I had already cleaned out the brake adjuster housing so today I put it all back together and packed it with high-temp moly grease. I refitted it to the back plate and wrapped it all in plastic until I get the rest rebuilt.

During the week I was trying to work out how the "puller" type brake slave system came apart. The book says to undo the locking pin, turn the shaft anti clockwise and the piston and seals will slide out. Well, they left a LOT of steps out. First you remove the brake line from the slave cylinder. This is done by loosening the inverted flare nut. I even have proper imperial flare nut spanners, and the first thing they did was to round off all the edges. Out with the vice grips. They worked. Unfortunately, the flared end has corroded itself to the nut, so when the nut turns, so does the pipe, twisting and collapsing it. Out with the vice grips and the end is now crimped off. Oh well, I figured I would have to replace a lot of the old brake lines, as I could see where brake fluid had leaked at many of the junctions and stripped the paint, exposing it to the weather and corroding things. With the pipe safely crimped closed, I could take the slave cylinder up to the house and pull it apart on the work bench.
With the handbrake rod removed, I slipped the rubber boot off and found an external circlip. With that removed, I cut the safety wire that stops the locking pin from undoing and backed the pin out. I tried rotating the shaft anti clockwise, but it wouldn't come out. After levering the aluminium spacer plate away from the steel slave cylinder, I found another circlip stopping the guts from sliding out. With that removed, another whole lot of nothing happened.
I decided to clean it up a bit so I could see better, so I taped up all the openings and gave it a good blast in my sandblasting cabinet. With it all nice and clean, I could see that it definitely came out through the bottom. I stuck it in the press and it popped out pretty easily.



With that out, I found that the part number for the 2 rubber seals is PBR P621. These look ok, but if it's apart, I may as well put new ones in, if I can get them.
I tapped the pin out that locks the internals together and was able to separate them all. Looking into the slave housing, I found a ring of hardened sludge that had stopped the internals sliding out easily. I removed the bleeder and block-off bolt opposite where I twisted off the brake pipe, and found that these recesses were also full of sludge and gunk. I cleaned them out and gave the main cylinder bore a light clean with 1200 grit wet & dry. With everything clean now, and tools all over the work bench and around the truck, it decided to rain, so that was the end of the fun for the weekend.



I'll try and find 4 of those brake seals during the week. There's a pair for sale on eBay, but if I can get them locally it will save a lot of time.
I already picked up 4m of pre-coated 1/4" brake line and 11 new flare nuts, as that was all they had in stock. I'll try loosening the brake line on the other side during the week, so I can strip the slave cylinder down and see why it is not returning properly. The days are getting longer, so I can do a bit after work most days, when it isn't raining.

It was good to see parts actually going back on for a change.

Greg.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 06:08:43 PM by Ravvin »

Offline Chazza

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2016, 05:59:24 PM »
Nice work Greg!  :D

May I make the following suggestions?

1. Replace all of the brake pipes; there is bound to be corrosion either inside them, or on the outside. Because the wall-thickness is so small, even the smallest rust-pit is threatening the integrity of the hydraulic system. The worst that can happen if it fails, is an out of control truck with fatalities! Anyway making new pipes and fitting them is very therapeutic, I find.  :D

2. Fill the diff-housing with kerosene, put the bung back in and rotate the axles by hand to slosh it around a bit; that way the bearings hopefully won't get rust flakes blown into them, by a pressure cleaner, or risk rusting from water ingress. You might have to drain and repeat several times.

3. You will never get all of the flakes out unless you strip it completely, so what about fitting a magnet to the drain plug? I have done this to all of my old cars and it is remarkable how much fine filings end up on the magnet. If the magnet is clean it also tells me that all is well and good inside.

I love your posts and watching your progress,

Cheers Charlie
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S2A 109" GS '63
S2A Fire Truck '64

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2016, 10:17:21 PM »
Thanks for that.
I had figured I may have to replace the brake lines. I followed them all back and found that every single junction and fitting had signs of old leaks. There were rust streaks and stripped paint. I also found that both master cylinder stroke indicators came all the way out, even when the brakes were adjusted out and sticking.
Interestingly, the passenger side rear was the one sticking the most and now I have found the puller plunger isn't returning fully.
I have all the gear for doing double flares and bending 1/4" pipe, so it's just a matter of working my way through and replacing them as I go. I wanted to pull both master cylinders down for a clean and overhaul anyway.

As for the diff, I could jack it up to get the housing level and fill it with kero to the edge of the axle openings, then jack up one of the intermediate wheels and spin it. That should turn the rear diff over and stir the kero around. If I drop it into a clean container, I can skim the worst sludge off and use it again. Once no more comes out I will leave the bung out so it can drain fully. I can use the kero for mixing with the degreaser to clean the gearbox and PTO pump. It's caked on thick.

As for the diff bung, I think I have a small magnet off a broken telescopic pick-up tool somewhere. I cane drill a recess in the bung and stick the magnet in with some Locktite red. I haven't drained the other diffs yet, but it wouldn't hurt to have magnetised bungs in them too.

Greg.

Offline Chazza

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2016, 08:19:48 AM »
I bought a packet of rare-earth magnets from possibly this business in Perth years ago https://magnet.com.au/?gclid=CjwKEAjwrcC9BRC2v5rjyvSbhWASJACKkjDzI-sudi6EY1aujLBOwgE6pXYUyHlT6f14AtcHZY30ahoCUh_w_wcB

From memory I bought 20 and the price came down significantly; the chap on the phone recommended rare-earth. I chose the ones with a hole through the middle, which allowed me to drill and tap a hole in the bung and hold the magnet with a small screw. Getting the screw past the magnet and into the hole was the fun bit,

Cheers Charlie
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S2A 109" GS '63
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Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2016, 08:49:06 AM »
Thanks for that.
I just bought 10 6mmx3mm neodymium nickel coated disc magnets.  ;D

I'll buy a few new 1/2" pipe bungs and drill a 6.5mm hole in the ends, ready to glue the magnets in when they get here.

The postage cost more than the magnets.  :o

Greg.

Offline Bluebell One-eight

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2016, 10:04:51 PM »
Hi Greg, looks like you're making good progress. While on the rare earth magnets
I made up a magnetic broom by welding a length of pipe to a piece of 3mm plate, so that the plate was parallel to the ground when the handle was at a comfortable angle.  The magnets were simply put on the plate and if you wanted to find a small part the magnets would pick it up when they passed over it. Might be handy for you working outdoors. With the nuts that adjust the wheel bearings, only the outer has a seal, someone has probably fitted one with the seal because they didn't have a plain nut. It doesn't make any difference the seal just doesn't do anything when used on the inner position.   Keep at it. John

Offline john.k

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2016, 11:36:17 PM »
I havent looked at the forum lately,so a few points. The axle nut seals[not the nuts] are the same as used on one of the 70s axles.Either the No3 Eaton,or possibly the C1600.Cant remember.The rubber thingy crushed into the brake expander is actually a soft gasket seal to keep water out of the brake expander and cylinder.The grease question is as follows....Red grease for the hydraulic parts,,white grease is for the mechanicals of the expander....You dont want ordinary petroleum base grease in the expander migrating into the hydraulics,as it will swell the rubbers and jam everything up.And carefully check out the drop boxes on the front of the diffs.They are very feak and weeble,and prone to disaster.Worst part of the truck,in my opinion.Glad to see you got a good vehicle.The Mk3 will do for spares.Regards John.