Perentie rear seat approval

[BavarianLad]

You have one like mine.

As far as I am aware the 3 door TD5 was never sold on the civi market in AU.  The 200/300TDi was and I think they came as 10 seater so it would have been a simple process for these to meet ADR.

The Puma 3 door wagon which are a bit thin on the ground only came as a 2 seater, maybe this was to do with a ADR change at some point.

Looks Good!
Is the winch on it original (pto), or did you put it on?
I wanna get an electric one for mine.

I've got mine as a 8 seater in the papers.

I haven't done much research myself, but the previous owner mentioned, that the Australian forces only took 50 of the td5's in service.
Can you confirm that?

And how did we get our hands on them, if they weren't sold on the civi market?

[dugite]

The td5s were sold by AFM by auction in (AFAIR) 2011, some had Warn winches installed.

The details are noted on the remlr.com site

[303Gunner]

The td5s were sold by AFM by auction in (AFAIR) 2011, some had Warn winches installed.

No PTO on the TD5's, only Warn electric winches.

Not marketed by AFM back then, they were sold through Manheims through the normal disposal auction process, not the "Defence Remarketing Contract" that AFM have now. And while the TD5s were a "remedial" purchase to extend the fleetlife of the Perentie, they were actually sold off first before the mass disposal of the Perenties.

While our attention is firmly fixed on AFM each month, there are still the occaisional military vehicles or trailers that sidestep AFM and come through Manheims.

[juddy]

All of the last batch 2004 had the Warn winch and air-con.  Its a good winch and mine as had very little use.  Manheims seem to have most of the none vehicle ex army gear.

[BavarianLad]

Thanks for all your helpful information.
I'm a Defender owner for over 10 years, but until I bought the TD5 remediation vehicle recently, I only had civilian ones.
Hope you excuse my lack of knowledge and my questions don't sound too silly

[juddy]

Thanks for all your helpful information.
I'm a Defender owner for over 10 years, but until I bought the TD5 remediation vehicle recently, I only had civilian ones.
Hope you excuse my lack of knowledge and my questions don't sound too silly

Never too silly. This is a place of Knowledge so you should find the answer to most if not all of your questions.

[STDDIVER]

Hi BavarianLad -  hopefully some helpful comments - welcome to the forum!

Asking the right questions of any government department is most important.  I have always found proper research is critical before you ask a question in determining the answer you want and too often an open ended  question is not wise because it lacks the background information enabling the person to provide an informed decision.  For example, if you explain that a land rover model 110 is made in many variants including hard top and soft top of which both variants meet the ADR, and these variants are available as bolt on conversion options from the manufacturer.  The compliance plate may only have "Landrover military 4x4" on it alluding to the idea that a hard top or soft top is perfectly straight forwards.  What is required to show an example of a stock standard variant of each type and explain that these can be converted in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions using only parts supplied as original parts by the manufacturer, will get a significantly different answer from "What do I have to do to convert my vehicle from a sof top to a hard top or put seats in ther back?"    In every case I have taken the time to show the registration officer the correct information before offering up the "change of description of a vehicle" form and in every case they just signed the form to verify the details are correct and making the computer entry.  Giving examples of other brands where this "seasonal adjustment" or "seating adjustment" applies is also an excellent idea including photographs and even downloads from the web page from the manufacturer showing that this is possible and allowable makes it far easier for the registration officer to see where it fits in with their guidelines.  A mate of mine went in with a basic question and came out with a sheaf of forms to fill out and gave up on the project before even starting   Seats can be tricky though due to the compliance seating being stamper thereon.  Ask your insurance broker the same questions you might be pleasantly surprised in the answers.

I realise this varies from state to state, but its worth doing the research first and asking the direct question after providing the background information.   Good luck with your new landy - !
STDDIVER

[David]

STDDIVER
In Perth I found you don't even get to talk to the right department for this without having sent in the form first and booking an appointment.  I found that in Perth they wont listen or give advice over the phone and I couldnt book an appointment to discuss the issues unless I booked my vehicle for inspection.
I had the same idea of talking to someone after having my RFSV knocked back by an overzealous inspector several times for ridiculous issues.  In the end I got a movement permit drove the vehicle out there on spec, and hovered outside the inspection area until I caught an inspector on a break,  he ended up calling down a supervisor and assisted me getting my vehicle through, but initially he said he couldn't help without an appointment. 

[303Gunner]

Asking the right questions of any government department is most important.  I have always found proper research is critical.... For example, if you explain that a land rover model 110 is made in many variants including hard top and soft top of which both variants meet the ADR, and these variants are available as bolt on conversion options from the manufacturer.  The compliance plate may only have "Landrover military 4x4" on it alluding to the idea that a hard top or soft top is perfectly straight forwards.  What is required to show an example of a stock standard variant of each type and explain that these can be converted in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions using only parts supplied as original parts by the manufacturer.
STDDIVER

That approach might sink him before he starts.

The Perentie gained compliance as a uniquely different vehicle to the Landrover 110, to be called the "Military 4x4" (or Military 6x6). While many conponent parts were shared, they were treated as two different vehicles, in the same way that a Discovery or Range Rover also shares some common parts but is a different vehicle for compliance purposes. The Td5 Remediation vehicles are Complianced as 2003 or 2004 Defenders, and as such are not regarded as the same vehicle model as the Perentie, so any variations or acceptable configurations that are approved for the Perentie do  ot automatically apply to the Defender, and vice versa.

There is also the issue that the ROPS bar as fitted to the Perentie does not seem to have any surviving engineering paperwork, so while it may have been acceptable for a 1987 certification on a Perentie (or maybe it wasn't?), it will not be accepted as a 2004 model year accesory, or meet 2018 safety requirements (unless an Engineering Signatory can be found who says that it does). It must have standalone approval for fitting today to a 2004 Defender. Even if a document turns up that says it satisfies all engineering requirements on a 1987 model Perentie, that will not approve it on a different vehicle model (2004 Defender). It would be like saying that any braking or lighting option that was approved for a 1987 Commodore will be accepted for a 2004 or 2018 Commodore.

[STDDIVER]

Thanks for the discussion, this is really interesting. In any discussion, the specific always over rides the general so I'd suggest maintaining comments relative to the topic.  I have 'converted' my soft top to a hard top with the appropriate forms supported by manufacturer's descriptions many times with no worries.  (Yes even military 4x4s) Seats supplied by the manufacturer as fitted to one variant may be removed and replaced in the same vein.  If you put seats into a different variant which was never supplied with them - you will not be as lucky and it will most likely be referred to an engineer.  Defender rear seats for example, have been taken from one vehicle and fitted to another which did not have a compliance plate for that number of seats.  No problems if you have the information you present to the authority that the variant was supplied with the same seats un modified into factory mountings.  This includes full details and parts lists and workshop manual.  To come back to the point - a military 4x4 110 with a hard top can be converted to a military 4x4  110 with a soft top by swapping the original parts from one to the other.  Its stretching the concept beyond belief to convert a disco to a rangie though, that was never suggested.    I have used the REMLR and AFM technical documents showing the particular variant from what it is to what I want to bolt on or remove and this has been part of the success story, forewarmed is forearmed and of course the right attitude is critical - I have done this many times,  - still swimming.  Perhaps some states are more attuned than others, some officers use complex process as a defence against lack of knowledge too?

Cheers      

STDDIVER
 

[303Gunner]

Thanks for the discussion, this is really interesting. To come back to the point - a military 4x4 110 with a hard top can be converted to a military 4x4  110 with a soft top by swapping the original parts from one to the other.  Its stretching the concept beyond belief to convert a disco to a rangie though, that was never suggested.   
Cheers      

STDDIVER

Sure, that applies between different variants of the Perentie. But Bavarian Lad's vehicle is not a "Military 4x4" (aka Perentie), it is a TD5 Defender.  You did suggest converting a 2003/2004 TD5 Defender into a 1987 complied "Military 4x4" (ie Perentie); the two are completely different vehicle models for compliance and ADR purposes, with 17 years of engineering updates between them. How many TD5 Defender 110s were sold in the Australian market with soft tops (and therefore meeting ADRs)? I don't think there were any.

In fact, it could be argued that the TD5 Defender is more closely related to a TD5 Disco than it is to a Perentie, both mechanically and due to the ADRs that both meet.

[BavarianLad]

That’s some really good points of you two.

I came to the same conclusion about the difference of the vehicle types. I’m sure they treat it like any other TD5 Defender. But I didn’t know that it would be a problem to cross over suitable parts from different models. Makes sense especially if there is not an existing engineering certificate for the Perentie ROPS.
Stddiver really nice set up with those two back seats. But you didn’t get them approved in WA? Or you must have definately asked the right questions to the right people.
I have attached the information sheet from the NT, about Perenties. This is also been used by the WA department of transport.

It’s in the part Passengers. The wording …not be transported in an open load space… kills probably every chance to get a rear seat approval. Or someone from the department would be able to declare some parts of the rear area, as a passenger area.

[David]

These are my WA experiences trying to get a rear seat which you might hopefully be able to prove wrong.

I got an auto engineer to help try to get me approval for a rear seat in a 2 seat complianced RSFV in WA, I was told it is technically possible but it was going to be very expensive. 
As per the previous post if it is an open vehicle you need to be able to prove it isn't going to be used as load space, this would possibly be luck of the draw with the inspector as how can you prove it isn't loadspace when the WA guideline they use for Perenties says it is.
If you give in on the "it isn't load space" arguement you can try to segregate the load space from the seating ie with a cargo barrier.  The Cargo barrier can not prevent easy access to the vehicle (for emergency safety reasons) and the seating must have approved ROPS.  In a Perentie tub with access only from the rear and the ROPS at the front this is difficult. 
The other option I was given was to put in the seats and try to register it not as a landrover but as a custom vehicle (ie like a hotrod)  To do this I needed to start by meeting current emissions laws, not something I was interested in trying with a 4BD1. 
I was told it would be much easier to get a centre front seat but even this is difficult to get approved as there is insufficient legroom for the WA legislation, but I believe (untested) you can get a seat approved for under 16's who need less legroom.
I have a centre seat and a three point harness anchored off the ROPS, it is not legal but we use this seat off road and I wanted the three point harness for the safety of my kid.  We also use the RFSV jump seat off road.
I was told even having an seat fitted additional to compliance technically makes my vehicle breach the legislation which is why in WA most RFSV's have to have their rear seat removed.  Apparently the RFSV's were compliance plated prior to the seat being installed.

All I can add is good luck, and I hope you keep trying as I would like to see any 2 seat complianced WA perentie changed to a 3+ seater that has been WA complianced.

[tona]

   HI BARVARIONLAD ,WAS wundrin if you got your vehicle licence with those tyres and rims,, am thinking of buying a set for my rfsv, how do you think they would go ,thanks TONA

[BavarianLad]

Thanks David
I'm not giving up