Author Topic: So what did happen to 113-303  (Read 28329 times)

AGAS 5

  • Guest
So what did happen to 113-303
« on: March 22, 2013, 05:31:26 PM »
Hi Gang,

First off, many thanks to Ross for his research on Vietnam Land Rovers and Richard for updating the database on REMLR.com

I was looking through the list to confirm my vehicle 113-300 was listed, when I noticed the remark comments on the next vehicle, 113-303  " 1ALSG dec68 BER, 2jan69 2AOD awm95-13-3-10.pdf" 

To interpret this for you it means: In December 1968 the 1st Australian Logistic Support Group in South Vietnam declared 113-303 damaged beyond economical repair. Also, on 2 January 1969, 113-303 was located at the 2nd Advanced Ordnance Depot, also in South Vietnam. This information appears to have been sourced from Australian War Memorial file 95-13-3-10  (note, I've yet to view this myself).

So what's my point ?  Well, if you go to REMLR.com / information for members / member sheds and scroll down to "KJ's Land-Rover Series 2A ΒΌ Ton G.S" you will find pics of a very healthy and original looking 113-303 in private hands at Cooma in 1998.

So what happened here ? not beyond economical repair after all ?

As a side note, a very damaged and rusted number plate for 113-303 was on ebay a couple of years ago. If my memory is correct the seller stated it was part of an estate of a vietnam veteran.

Cheers,

Pete

« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 06:08:01 PM by AGAS 5 »

Offline Phoenix

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
  • THANKS 87
    • REMLR
  • Location: Launceston, Tasmania
  • REMLR No: 129
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2013, 10:20:16 PM »
That is a very good question.  Some vehicles are noted as beyond economical repair (and that may have only been BER in theater).  It may be that it was shipped home and repaired.  Yours isn't the only vehicle to have these kind of notations.

The notes that you have decyphered are the ones that Ross C is now adding to the database, and then (I hope) emailling me copies of the file for our archive. 

Certainly we have found vehicles noted as being salvaged for parts, or reduced for produce still existing in Australia, which is somewhat confusing I have to say.  I do wonder if the madly damage vehicles were loaded up, shipped home in that condition and repaired back at home.  Certainly there is a photo of a land rover on the back of an inter on the back of a recovery trailer being towed on to a landing craft, I presume to be sent home.  Perhaps it too was one of these instances.  A bit of a mystery until we find more documets of a later date, or of the time explaining. 

I would dearly love the homeward shipping records especially to see what condition returned vehicles are hoted as  being in.
REMLR Webmaster
Eden - 1961 Series 2 Ambulance, 108-098
1973 Army Moke, 25-764

Offline Carzee

  • REMLR Committee
  • Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 3449
  • THANKS 164
  • Perentie FFR 50-257
    • Perentie Wiki
  • Location: Canberra
  • REMLR No: 007
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2013, 10:37:18 PM »
Paperwork is the thing. I was not at 2AOD but the weekly summary sheet looks straightforward enough. A column of vehicles incoming with problems to assess and fix, a column of vehicles fixed and reissued, a column of vehicles flagged beyond local repair, and a column of vehicles beyond economic repair
I assume the ber and ble criteria changed thru the years as the local stock levels increased. One report mentioned vehicles were waiting on a resupply of transmissions. By 70 the tranny overhauls were being done locally. So just what couldn,t they fix incountry? Engines and chassis bends were maybe the only areas. Who knows. But its the case that vehicles in the ber column sometimes made it out and back in service.

Offline Carzee

  • REMLR Committee
  • Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 3449
  • THANKS 164
  • Perentie FFR 50-257
    • Perentie Wiki
  • Location: Canberra
  • REMLR No: 007
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2013, 10:44:07 PM »
 .... And I had planned on seeking out 113303 and meeting up with it again after 15 years. Soon.

AGAS 5

  • Guest
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2013, 07:48:48 AM »
.... And I had planned on seeking out 113303 and meeting up with it again after 15 years. Soon.

hmmmmm..... I wouldn't mind being a part of that   ;D

Pete

Offline zulu delta 534

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 247
  • THANKS 99
  • Location: Loganlea
  • REMLR No: 226
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2013, 10:35:10 AM »
When the Army purchases a vehicle, the initial price paid includes the price of the actual vehicle plus enough spare parts and consumables to see that vehicle through ten years or so of Army life. All vehicles break down and have to be maintained throughout their lifetime. The Army works out an equation as to how much money and time they can afford to spend on each vehicle to keep it in tip top condition.
BER does not mean that the vehicle is actually dead, simply that the sum of money that was allocated to keep this vehicle in combat ready condition had already been expended, or will be exceeded if the required repair is to be carried out! So, rather than waste more money on the vehicle it was BER'ed. The next step would have been to send it home from the Ordnance depot O/S and then it would have found itself in an auction as a "no-goer"somewhere in Australia where some keen young bloke bought it for a minimal sum.
The Government was happy as the vehicle had not cost them any amount over the budget that they had previously paid/allocated and then they got some cash back from the auction.
The purchaser was happy as he had picked up a reasonable vehicle that in his eyes was repairable within his budget, and probably got a number of years good service out of it before he got tired of the spartan set up and replaced it with a more modern and comfortable Japanese unit.
Next, possibly a collector came along, saw the potential, and spent a bit of time and money resurrecting the poor old beast back to its former glory and then took it to Cooma. (Think of someone like Dennis M here :) )
A pretty typical story for most ex military restored vehicles.
BER did not always work out on the cost side either, some vehicles may have had very little money spent on them in their lifetime but their allocated lifespan had run out. This would also be written off as a BER situation as the original contract was only for a certain number of years.

BLR on the other hand was another equation that worked out the urgency of the repair, the staff and means on hand to do the job, the availability of spare parts on hand required, the capability to handle the task successfully, and a few other requirements, and after looking at all the facts the decision was made to do it there, or if too big a job, send it back home to a base workshop.
Neither actually mean that that was the end of the vehicle.
Note in the last auctions, if you have been following them, a couple of the S line Inters were incomplete and non goers. These were obviously BER'ed by the army (strange after about 30 years service) and then flogged off. A civvy buyer could afford to spend another $10,000 on it and still have a pretty solid reasonably priced truck, but the Army could not justify writing off that amount on an already tired and oft repaired vehicle. BER is the answer.
Regards
Glen
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 12:12:38 PM by zulu delta 534 »

Offline Carzee

  • REMLR Committee
  • Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 3449
  • THANKS 164
  • Perentie FFR 50-257
    • Perentie Wiki
  • Location: Canberra
  • REMLR No: 007
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2013, 11:36:24 AM »
redo.. - - smartphones aren't quite there yet. Also, because the IP address is different, I can't modify the post at home.
:)

Paperwork is the thing. I was not at 2AOD but the weekly summary sheet looks straightforward enough.

A column of vehicles incoming with problems to assess and fix [Receipts],
 a column of vehicles fixed and reissued [Issues],
 a column of vehicles flagged Beyond Local Repair [BLR],
 and a column of vehicles Beyond Economic Repair [BER].

I assume the BER and BLR criteria changed thru the years as the local stock levels (and special tool requirements) increased. One report mentioned vehicles were waiting on a resupply of transmissions. By '70 the tranny overhauls were being done locally. So just what couldn't they fix in-country?

There was a reference to a new 2AOD improvement being completed (and a compliment to the local carpenters), especially set up to store body panel parts.

Engine rebuilds and chassis bends were maybe the only areas they didn't have manhours and machinery to do. Who knows. But its the case in the summaries that vehicles in the BER column sometimes made it out and back in the reissue column.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 11:43:03 AM by Carzee »

Offline Diana Alan

  • REMLR Inc
  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 2241
  • THANKS 108
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2013, 11:49:08 AM »
Could it have been that a number of BER vehicles were canabalised to make up a single unit to be returned to service?
REMLR 240.
Perentie FFR 50-422, SIII FFR 30-146, SIIA GunBuggy 112-726, Mk3 Inter 170-437, ex-SADF SIIB/SIII Radio Relay,
Army Trailers: No5 x 2, W/S x 2, PT1-1.2, Horndraulic ATR dog trailer.
Civilian: MY85 RRc HiLine 4.6, MY51 ex-RACQ 80", MY91 Defender/Reynolds Boughton 6x6, MY12 D4 SDV6

Offline Phoenix

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
  • THANKS 87
    • REMLR
  • Location: Launceston, Tasmania
  • REMLR No: 129
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2013, 12:04:57 PM »
Could be.

Genn, do you mind if I include your descriptions of BER and BLE in the REMLR abbreviations page?  It certainly clarifies what it means.

Richard
REMLR Webmaster
Eden - 1961 Series 2 Ambulance, 108-098
1973 Army Moke, 25-764

Offline Diana Alan

  • REMLR Inc
  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 2241
  • THANKS 108
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2013, 12:06:58 PM »
Could be.

Genn, do you mind if I include your descriptions of BER and BLE in the REMLR abbreviations page?  It certainly clarifies what it means.

Richard
Would that be BER and BLR?
REMLR 240.
Perentie FFR 50-422, SIII FFR 30-146, SIIA GunBuggy 112-726, Mk3 Inter 170-437, ex-SADF SIIB/SIII Radio Relay,
Army Trailers: No5 x 2, W/S x 2, PT1-1.2, Horndraulic ATR dog trailer.
Civilian: MY85 RRc HiLine 4.6, MY51 ex-RACQ 80", MY91 Defender/Reynolds Boughton 6x6, MY12 D4 SDV6

Offline Phoenix

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
  • THANKS 87
    • REMLR
  • Location: Launceston, Tasmania
  • REMLR No: 129
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2013, 12:11:17 PM »
Sigh, alas my typos are contagious today!
REMLR Webmaster
Eden - 1961 Series 2 Ambulance, 108-098
1973 Army Moke, 25-764

Offline zulu delta 534

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 247
  • THANKS 99
  • Location: Loganlea
  • REMLR No: 226
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2013, 12:37:14 PM »
Feel free. Also there was a discussion in an earlier post that pretty well says the same thing and an interesting reply from Cookey re a Studebaker truck that underwent a complete o/haul and then BER'ed on an ancillary technicality. http://remlr.com/forum/index.php?topic=412.msg3303#msg3303.
If it helps people understand how things were, then I am only too happy to pass on the info. Just take into consideration that these "snippets" are  widely a "general overview" and may be slightly technically imperfect in some instances, but should give the general idea.
Regards
Glen

AGAS 5

  • Guest
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2013, 02:00:02 PM »
Thanks Glen. Your knowledge on this (and other) areas of our vehicles military service is very appreciated.

Pete

Offline Carzee

  • REMLR Committee
  • Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 3449
  • THANKS 164
  • Perentie FFR 50-257
    • Perentie Wiki
  • Location: Canberra
  • REMLR No: 007
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2013, 05:47:39 PM »
 :) :) :)

I have just spoken with REMLR member 025 - Ken J. who lives down in the Snowy Mt region.

I also emailled Ken the REMLR link etc.

113-303 still lives and still earns its keep.

Ken said he has recently had some local help (from a real Landy enthusiast) fitting new brakes parts and he is currently working on replacing or fixing one of the fuel tanks. Also the seats, the original green ones, look a bit shabby. Well, next year 113-303 will be 50 years old so its no surprise the seats are looking tired. Ken said the paint is still the original paint as he purchased it at auction in Sydney around 1980.

How many of us can say we have owned our ex-army Landy for 33+ years?

Looking forward to some photos next month or so.

I might also add, tracking down Ken was possible because he filled in one of those original forms I handed out at the 50th Anniversary Event in Cooma. The contact phone number for Ken is still the same... (!)


Offline Diana Alan

  • REMLR Inc
  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 2241
  • THANKS 108
Re: So what did happen to 113-303
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2013, 06:41:36 PM »
Note to self, never move or change phone or email address, that way REMLR can find me.

Isn't there also a "one time repair cost" or something similar? cookey may explain it better, it is the reason why some vehicles get a major overhaul and the at the end need some inexpensive part which exceeds the specified repair cost of the vehicle so it goes to auction effectively a zero timed vehicle.
REMLR 240.
Perentie FFR 50-422, SIII FFR 30-146, SIIA GunBuggy 112-726, Mk3 Inter 170-437, ex-SADF SIIB/SIII Radio Relay,
Army Trailers: No5 x 2, W/S x 2, PT1-1.2, Horndraulic ATR dog trailer.
Civilian: MY85 RRc HiLine 4.6, MY51 ex-RACQ 80", MY91 Defender/Reynolds Boughton 6x6, MY12 D4 SDV6