Author Topic: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos  (Read 488496 times)

Tommy

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #120 on: April 26, 2013, 07:52:09 PM »
This photo, copied from another thread, shows a Gunbuggy receiving some mechanical attention. This Buggy would be 111-578 as it exhibits a number of similarities.

1. Same TAC plates and position on front guard panel.
2. ARN plate located under headlights.
3. No bonnet latches.








Tommy

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #121 on: April 26, 2013, 08:04:31 PM »
Hi Tommy

No I'm just going by the REMLR records. 

The blue ARN book suggests that the chassis and engine originally fitted with the ARN 112-726 plates was later fitted with the ARN 112-723.  It seems that a number of the buggies in the 112-7?? region played musical chassis at one point.  http://remlr.com/ARN/ARNs_gunbuggys.php 

My ASSUMPTION is that this would have happened during a full base workshop rebuild when several buggies were on the line at the same time and that possibly happened when the vehicles returned from SVN.

So if my buggy which left service with ARN 112-723, was actually in SVN it likely had ARN 112-726 plates at the time.  I must reinforce that this is an assumption based only on the change of ARN not any other documents. 

Diana

Interesting :o.

If what you say is correct then this may be your buggy whilst in SVN :). I'm almost convinced that it is 112-726.


Offline Carzee

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #122 on: April 26, 2013, 08:04:57 PM »


The front seat passenger has an interesting weapon. Is that the 'grease gun'?

Tommy

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #123 on: April 26, 2013, 08:12:11 PM »


The front seat passenger has an interesting weapon. Is that the 'grease gun'?

No :(. Aussie designed and manufactured F1 :)

http://world.guns.ru/smg/austr/f1-e.html

Tommy

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #124 on: April 26, 2013, 08:23:24 PM »

Isn't that an owen gun, the original drivers personal weapon that clipped onto the triangular bracket next to the seatbox and the spring clip where the door catch usually is. Oops wrong again!  :'(

Would that bracket and clip have been designed to take the L1A1 SLR? The SLR would have been the primary army rifle at that stage. Glen would most probably know.

Tommy

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #125 on: April 26, 2013, 08:38:00 PM »
Would that bracket and clip have been designed to take the L1A1 SLR? The SLR would have been the primary army rifle at that stage. Glen would most probably know.
No its too short for a long arm or assault rifle.

I see what you mean.

I found this photo with weapon in situ. It however, does not sit in the clip correctly. Am attempting to identify said weapon at the moment. The two screws/fixings where butt joins receiver is stumping me. Maybe a early version of the F1 or Owen. You can just see the wooden trigger grip.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 08:40:12 PM by Tommy »

Tommy

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #126 on: April 26, 2013, 08:49:45 PM »
However the brackets were designed for the Owen not the F1.

Have never seen an image with the Owen mounted, and I wonder if the stock was folded when stowed.




I'm pretty sure the metal frame stock on the Owen did not fold :(.

The other issue I see with the Owen is that it had quite a long top mounted magazine. I cannot see how this weapon could be stowed in the bracket and clip without removing the magazine. The weapon sits in the bracket on it's back. Cannot be good if you require your weapon at short notice :o
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 08:53:38 PM by Tommy »

Offline zulu delta 534

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #127 on: April 26, 2013, 09:55:59 PM »
In 1966 when Australia upped the ante and committed extra troops to SVN the weapons issued to drivers were the L1a1 SLR rifle or in the case of a lot of drivers the Owen Machine Carbine. The particular weapon I was issued with was an  OMC  manufactured in 1941.
Towards the end of 66 or possibly early in 1967 the OMCs were recalled and we were issued the brand new Aussie built F1.
It was still a 9mm rimless weapon with about the same cyclic rate of fire and an improvement over its predecessor in that it didn't tend to creep high right as did the Owen, but as we were to find out in later dates, US ammunition was not quite the same as we were used to in Australia, and this caused quite a number of problems, and not only with the F1s.
One very noticeable difference in the ammunitions were the softer projectile nose of the American issue product that caused consistent scarring and subsequent jamming of the 7.62 L1A2 AR, and this hastened its subsequent replacement by the GPMG M60.
The F1 was not really known for its penetrating power especially in SVN, I believe mainly because of the ammo differences.

The stand on the drivers side seat base of the gunbuggy was designed originally for the OMC. but the unfortunate thing about this arrangement was that the weapon could not be stowed with a magazine fitted. Handy way to carry a weapon in a war zone!
The F1 was basically the same as far as the stock dimensions were concerned so it also fitted well in the supplied stand and clip, but once again, with a top mounted magazine, still stored magazineless.
The OMC had a straight Mag whereas the F1 had a curved Mag. Inside they both operated on the same principals (recoil operated) and were very similar in a lot of respects.
I used to carry my F1 to my left in between the two seats and I kept the more important part of our CES (and very often used too I may add) in the weapon stand to the right of the driver when I drove them. (Looking bored shirtless at the time I might add.)


 SLRs were usually carried by "back seat" passengers and in the tub towards the rear SLR mounts were fitted.
The crew commander (left front seat) often had a SLR as well and that was carried across the floor just in front of the seat box with the butt to the left and the barrel fitting into a small tube under the drivers legs.

Two magazines were usually taped together, one empty and one fully loaded, as it was very easy to change from a "safe" area where loaded weapons were prohibited to a "not safe" area where a loaded weapon was a necessity. The fact that the magazine was always fitted kept the vital organs of the weapon relatively sand and mud free.


Regards
Glen
PS I can't quite work out who the NCO is operating the radio in the shot with  in the quarry - probably looking for an absent unloaded tipper prior to a convoy, by the looks of the clean boots.

Tommy

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #128 on: April 26, 2013, 11:10:17 PM »
Thanks for that explanation Glen. Many questions have now been answered :).

The weapon carried on the Gunbuggy in the photo below can now be confirmed as an Owen MC. Where would the SLR be mounted in the tub?



I notice that the inverted magazine (in your second photo) is loaded. I can therefore assume that the F1 is in 'safe' mode as you have explained.

Your knowledge is greatly appreciated Glen :D

Offline digger

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #129 on: April 27, 2013, 12:46:26 AM »
and I have resisted the urge for too long...
 :o


MMM GUNBUGGY MMM ;D ::)


ahhh thats better!!  :)

I notice the crank handle there in ready access position.... battery trouble? (see what I did there...artillery type vehicle...battery trouble ?? :)   ahh, dont bother..)

On a serious note, the wire cutters on front left side, just standard angle and a star dropper or what was it made with?
how common were they (see photos with, and without..) and were they a unit mod or was there some sort of standard set for them?
how often were they needed?


some other questions up for grabs - 

-screens seem fitted almost all the time in the in country shots once the "big pipe" was removed, is that correct?..
-how common was the 'no bonnet hooks" on gunbuggies?
-I know why the headlights have 'eyelid" covers...why yellow? and who fitted these?

Cheers...
and lets keep this thread up chaps!!!
it is a great record.. (ps post 48... spot Prince Harry as a driver!)

ta.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 01:14:10 AM by digger »
(remlr 235 / MVCA 9)*88"-'63 .S2A--c6005  x 2-"Horrie"-112-769, & "The Vet"-112-429(-Vietnam-PRE 1ATF '65)
(unnamed)--109"--'56 .S1 (ute)(future project --88"--'66--S2A-as UN CIVPOL.) 80"-49,53 PARTS, 80"-50,52 , 1 x 109 s3, "Hans" 1 x 88 s3, AND 1 X 110 - 2012 "BEAR"

Offline DennisM

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #130 on: April 27, 2013, 08:00:56 AM »
The Series Two gun buggy was a converted S2 C/R, theat vehicle was basically a civilian vehicle with a few military add on's, the bonnet was released by putting fingers through the hole in the grille and pushing the bonnet release lever sideways, thus releasing the spring catch, I suppose these would occasionally fail, image of 111-5?? In a previous post has the std bonnet release.
The S2 in the image with a bucket/shovel in the background has bonnet clamps that look almost the same as early International engine cover clamps, I'm not sure where the SLR would have have been mounted in the rear?? cheers Dennis.
Ps I had a look at page 31 in the training pam Vol 3, pam 2 106 RCL, it only shows provision for a machine carbine (OMC) to be stowed on the RHS floor. 112-655 has the holes in said places but not clips/mounts, most likely removed by the previous owner Sgt. R. Thompson, he used 112-655 to map Aboriginal sacred sites within the Holdsworthy Range area, so maybe with gunbuggies that were used in a theatre of war might have had a clip or two added to secure a SLR, but the only image I have seen had the SLR loose on kit near the gunner,,??.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 09:06:49 AM by DennisM »

Offline zulu delta 534

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #131 on: April 27, 2013, 01:30:47 PM »
The gunbuggy was designed from scratch as a vehicle to carry what was at the time a brand new weapon, so a list of requirements would have been drawn up about 10 miles long to cover what was perceived by peace time engineers to be the basic requirements. Hence the prototype gunbuggy was released and thought to be ideal for the job.
Over a period of time set aside for "user evaluation" (standard process with all new products) a few shortfalls were discovered, such minor things as the muzzle blast obliterating the front of the vehicle and the recoil blast having the same effect on the rear section, hence mudguards and body tub were shortened. A lot of other minor problems were found (but remember that these problems were discovered in a "peaceful" home grown exercise environment) and these were duly rectified, and lo and behold eventually the gunbuggy as we know it emerged, on what was then the current GS vehicle, the S2.
Time marches on and the little gunbuggy performs above and beyond its expectations, an awesome new anti tank weapon suddenly has the added advantage of being highly mobile. The S2a is adopted by the Australian Army as the standard GS and it has quite a number of improvements and modifications over the almost civilian S2 as Dennis M mentioned, and as a result some of these differences show up on buggies that were produced on different platforms. The Army "gunbuggy mods" were standardized but the Land Rover bits underneath it changed with the model change, hence the 2" lift on a S2a, bonnet catches, brushguards etc etc.
So whilst still under a "peacetime exercise type" development, little compartments and holders were attached all over the place in various nooks and crannies to hold all the perceived pieces of equipment deemed necessary and all looked neat and tidy and seemed to be practical by all inspecting Officers and the likes of such.
Unfortunately when the little buggies eventually did go to war in South Vietnam, suddenly what seemed important in peacetime, like where to store a personal weapon, became irrelevant, in that most people I knew had this thing about keeping their weapons handy, rather than in the prescribed place.
This fact, plus the fact that the most prevalent spare parts held by any LAD or workshop stores would have been for the current S2a vehicles, so when a mudguard or bonnet or other body panel was damaged it was replaced by what was readily available, and that often would have been a standardized S2a part. Originally the guards for a gunbuggy were from a S2 and undrilled for recovery CES brackets. The lack of use of the 106 as a vehicular mounted weapon quite possibly made the requirement for the tools to be out of the muzzle blast area, nowhere near as important as it was originally thought.

Onslow still has one rifle clamp still fitted in the rear of the tub although it seems to be bent about 90 Deg or so. This is the only one still fitted to the vehicle as most others were removed before disposal.

As I inferred above, I have never seen it used as most people I knew held on to their personal weapons, and I am  having trouble recalling whether the machine gunner even took his personal weapon with him as he had drawn the M60 and ammo from the Q store for the outing on a day by day basis.

Wire cutters were fitted by the local 1 Coy LAD and made out of stock standard star pickets. There is one reference to wire across the road in the Commanders Diaries, and written off as a kids prank, but it happened at least 6 times that I know of. (A lot of funny things happened that didn't actually get to the notice of the boss, but I am sure that any employee in any job is well aware of this.  At our reunions we have sometimes show personal collections as slide shows every now and then and our OC is simply amazed, and the most common statement heard is; "But I never knew that happened!!")

Lights were painted with the yellow eyelids as a courtesy to the locals and applied at a unit level. South Vietnam was basically a French outpost, the second language was French, driving rules etc were French, and as a result headlights on a local car had a yellow lens, a bit like our fog lights. Our light were white (well Lucas white anyway) and threw the wrong way so the compromise reached was the yellow eyelids. This ceased in later days as left hand drive headlights were fitted to O/S bound vehicles.

Most buggies that were fitted with M60s were road going vehicles and contrary to popular belief it is no real great fun driving around with no wind screen fitted, especially in the bug infested tropics, winding in and out of convoys and local traffic.

Regards
Glen

« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 10:53:50 AM by zulu delta 534 »

Tommy

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #132 on: April 27, 2013, 11:00:29 PM »
Update.

This thread can now confirm 43 Gunbuggy ARNs from images posted. Out of a total of 72 known ARNs, that is not a bad strike rate :). I have slowly been posting up new images as they come to light. Some new ones now in the thread.

The following list represent the 72 Gunbuggy ARNs. The red denotes that we do not yet have an image showing ARN. The blue denotes that we have image/images posted on this thread.

ARN 110-

110-395, 110-412, 110-423, 110-447, 110-501, 110-506, 110-518110-537, 110-542, 110-715, 110-720, 110-724, 110-776, 110-780, 110-785, 110-786, 110-797, 110-807, 110-849

ARN 111-

111-132, 111-552, 111-578, 111-613, 111-650, 111-660, 111-661

ARN 112-

112-243, 112-245, 112-246, 112-253, 112-254, 112-255, 112-256, 112-257, 112-258, 112-259, 112-325, 112-333, 112-334, 112-335, 112-336, 112-337, 112-371, 112-372, 112-373, 112-374,
112-375, 112-376, 112-377, 112-378, 112-379, 112-510, 112-512, 112-514, 112-516, 112-517, 112-578, 112-655, 112-722, 112-723, 112-724, 112-725, 112-726, 112-727, 112-728, 112-729
112-730, 112-731, 112-732, 112-733, 112-734

ARN 113-

113-253
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 05:43:08 PM by Tommy »

Offline Carzee

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #133 on: April 28, 2013, 08:02:20 AM »
Good idea
Could I suggest you edit the post to underline the ones that we have proven to still exist, whether restored or not.
How many of the 72 are left? They must be getting rare.

Tommy

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Re: Gunbuggy ARNs & Photos
« Reply #134 on: April 28, 2013, 11:20:56 AM »
Hello Carzee and Diana

Your suggestions make good sense and have crossed my mind from time to time. As time permits, I hope to make the changes to improve the thread. I am a little in the dark when it comes to private and museum ownership. I can only go by what is on the forum, REMLR website or internet. I would need the help of fellow members.