Inter 170-952

[Ravvin]

I've just about had enough of this truck. It's starting to be more trouble than its worth. I'm very tempted to take it up home and park it in the bush out of the way under a tarp. Then I can save up and find something that isn't so rusted out and use this one for parts.

I got a 1-5/16" socket and with a lot of CRC and heat, got 3 of the 4 bolts out that hold the cross-members to the mounting brackets. By levering the winch frame around, I was able to get the 3 brackets out, including the one with the captured nuts and bolts that I cut off by mistake. The final bracket is on the driver's side at the rear. I got all of the bolts out of the captured nuts, but I had no room to get the socket and breaker bar in there to undo the big bolt through the cross-member. Taking the other 3 brackets off has given me enough room to move things around a bit. I have soaked the final bolt in CRC and will have another go tomorrow. Even if it comes out, I don't think it will be enough to get the winch out.

I spent over 3 hours levering it around, trying different angles to get it to drop through the chassis rails. No matter what I did, I still need another 5mm, I looked through all of the EMEI's as well as the MK3 Workshop Manual, and I never found a single mention of how the winch comes out of the chassis rails. It must come out with the cross-members still connected, because the Workshop Manual states that you have to remove them before pulling the guts out with the winch drum. The cross-members are bolted to the winch body with 6 of those huge bolts, 3 on the front and the same on the back. If I could get either of the cross-members off, I could drop it down easily. The bolts go through the steel cross-member and through the aluminium winch housing. I had a go at undoing one of the bolts with a 1/2" drive breaker bar and a length of pipe and managed to twist the square section off the breaker bar. Luckily, that bit is replaceable on this bar. I borrowed a 3/4" breaker bar from work, but I don't like the feel of it. It flexes a lot and I don't want to break it. I found one on eBay with a 1" thick handle, second-hand for about $30 including freight, but it won't get here until next week when I'm back at work. I was able to get a good squirt of CRC on the backs of 5 of the big bolts, so I'll have another go at them tomorrow.

Something I thought about was trying to spread the chassis rails just enough for the winch frame to slip through. Once I get one corner through, the rest are easy as there is more room to spin things around. I've only got to widen the gap by 5mm. I have a scissor jack here somewhere so I'll try that with a piece of timber tomorrow. Here's a couple of pics or the setup I used to support the winch assembly while I worked on it today.



It's a bit hard to make out, but I hooked my 2 ton hand winch to the top of the frame on the truck and allowed the cable to hang down. Then I used the tree protector strop from my recovery kit to wrap around the winch drum and hooked it to the cable with the split pulley sheave. The first time I tried to winch it up, the sides of the truck frame bowed in so I had to make up the spreader bar that you can see above. That worked and the whole thing lifted up easily.

I undid the bolts and removed the eyelet on the front of the winch cable and was able to pull it through so it is laying out the back. It's pretty much stuffed. Where the front eyelet clamped, it's still shiny silver but all of the cable that was under the tray is badly rusted and pitted. The coils on the winch drum are the worst.  I'll take it up home, put an eyelet on each end and use it for snigging logs out of the gully with the tractor.

While cleaning a lot of the rust flakes out of the chassis rails, I noticed that the fixed cross-member behind the winch is fitted upside-down, compared to the one in the middle of the truck and the one right at the back. It's shown that way in the RPS, but it seems to me to be a bad idea. The cross-members are U shaped, so this one fills up with dirt and junk, plus any water that leaks through the deck. There is nowhere for it to get out. Mine is full to the top with rust chunks from the tray. It's totally stuffed, with the metal so thin that I can bend it in and out with my bare hand. It will have to be replaced and it's one of the ones that are riveted. The 4 rivets go through the cross-member, chassis rail and the rear spring hanger. The weird thing is that there is a bolt that goes through the bottom of the spring hanger and chassis rail. I think it may have been an in-service mod to stop the spring hanger twisting sideways.

I'm wondering why they didn't make the cross-members out of lengths of heavy-wall box section with plates welded across the ends. If I can't get a similar shape U channel to replace my stuffed ones, I'll use box or "H" beam. Originality would be ideal, but it may not always be practical.

Greg.

[john.k]

Make your crossmember out of an old bit of inter chassis.if its the wrong width,cut the flanges and graft two together.I find the c1300s are ideal for chassis bits as they are single thickness and 1/4 to 5/16 thick.The steel welds easily.I mounted the winch from 170/064 in my old Leyland tilt tray with chassis bits.Its now cleaning up the yard,and I used the winch a couple of days ago to pull down some dead trees,after one nearly demolished the neighbours house in a blow we had recently.No rest for the wicked ,but I dont remember being this bad.She says Im a grub living in a yard full of junk,so I think Im in with a chance.Happy new year.Regards John.

[Chazza]

I've just about had enough of this truck. It's starting to be more trouble than its worth. I'm very tempted to take it up home and park it in the bush out of the way under a tarp. Then I can save up and find something that isn't so rusted out and use this one for parts.

Greg.

Don't give up now, you have done so well so far and the joy of fitting nice clean painted parts is worth the wait!

Have you investigated a torque-multiplier? We have one at work and I undid a 500 ft/lb nut effortlessly yesterday; it may not fit where you are having trouble, however,

Cheers Charlie

[Acco 4x4]

Hi Greg,
As per usual, I love your work! Every time i read your posts i have an overwhelming urge to go and work on my truck! As far as blasting your components, I am using metal grindings (for lack of a better word) that i get for free from my local brake shop. The stuff I'm using is the consistency of sand and is what comes from the brake lathe when they machine brake drums and brake rotors. I get it by the bucket full for free as it is waste. Works well and as i repay them with a carton of beer every now and then it is really cheap and they make sure they clean up and give me every little bit. Only problem is you really need an area that can be cleaned (swept) up or covered with a tarp as after blasting for a while with a little moisture the whole place will look like the Pilbara! Anyway, Id like to wish you and all our members a safe and prosperous new year and i hope at sone stage in the future we get an opportunity to have a big truck run some time!
Timo

[Ravvin]

Thanks for all the feedback and encouragement. It's really appreciated, especially when things are going wrong.

John, I hadn't even thought of using old chassis rail as cross-members. That's a great idea. I'll check the local scrap merchant and see what they have laying around.

Charlie, I had never heard of a torque multiplier until you mentioned it. A bit of a google around and it looks like a very worthwhile investment. I went into town and asked around, but the one place that had one in stock wanted $2,200 for a Norbar one, so that was out. Both of the other places that supply tools wanted between $350 and $550 for the ones that they can order in. I came home and checked eBay and found a seller listing the exact same one that the locals were selling for $550. He has a Buy Now of $76 and $33 freight. It's a Miller Falls brand, so pretty low-end, but the others listed for lower prices were all no-name, Chinese made units, with wildly different torque ratings, although they all appear to be the same item. The seller with the Miller Falls one is away until the 14/1/2016, but that's ok as I have plenty of other stuff that I can do. Here's a link to the listing, if anyone is interested. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TORQUE-MULTIPLIER-TRUCK-WHEEL-NUT-CRACKER-POWER-WRENCH-TOOL-TYRE-TORQUE-TORQ-KIT-/261880965593?hash=item3cf95269d9:g:tH4AAOSwPcVVnm9z

Timo, I don't think we have any brake places around here that would do that. I got the contact details of a supplier of silica sand and other types of blasting grit just before Xmas but they shut down until after New Year, so I couldn't get pricing or other details. I'll give them a call early next week and see what they have and how much it's going to cost.

Now the good news. The damn thing is out! It took most of the day, but nothing broke and I only cut myself once with the grinder.
I wiggled and jiggled it around, working out what gave me the most room, to try dropping one corner of a winch cross-member down past the edge of the chassis rail. No matter what I tried, I needed another 5mm or so to get it past. While I was underneath, levering things around. I got a good close-up pic of the winch rope. I think it's beyond recovery.



The second pic is the rusted out upside-down cross-member. Most of that crap in there is rust chunks from the tray. There were 2 bolts coming through the bottom, stopping the spring hanger from twisting, but the nuts have totally rusted away. I'm not sure what is holding the bolts in place.

To spread the chassis rails enough to get the winch cross-member through, I used a scissor jack and a length of wood. It was a good idea, but not quite good enough. I was getting a decent load on it, but every time I got close to spreading the rails enough, it would flex a bit and shoot the bit of timber out sideways.



The jack also felt like it was very close to stripping the thread so I replaced it with the little hydraulic jack out of my Discovery. As long as I kept the pump tower on the bottom of the jack, it worked fine. I jacked it up again and could hear things creaking and complaining, yet still couldn't get enough room. I realised then that the cross-members in front and behind the winch assembly were too close together and stopping the chassis rails moving apart. I had already decided I was going to pull the front cross-member out and clean it and the chassis rails up, so out with the grinder and off with the rivet heads. Then I used a grinding wheel to take the remaining metal down enough to see where the rivet stem went through the rail. A couple of hits with the big punch and 4lb hammer and they shot out, leaving nice clean holes. Seeing as the rear cross-member was totally rusted out and had to be replaced anyway, I used the grinder to cut the back and bottom. The front was already rusted through. As I cut the last bit of metal, it sprang open about 5mm and the winch frame moved. I gave it a poke or 2 and it had started to drop through, but that one last mounting bracket on the other side that I couldn't get at was hanging up on the top edge of the chassis rail. At least now I could get at it. I couldn't turn the nut, as it was tucked in between the 2 gussets on the bracket, so I had to turn the bolt head. Luckily, while in town I picked up another 1-5/16" socket, an impact one this time. I was able to get one socket on the nut with a 1/2" to 3/4" adaptor and my spare breaker bar and lock it against the winch body. I used my new impact socket on the 3/4" breaker bar from work on the bolt and the damn thing unscrewed with no effort at all. It was the easiest of the 4.
With this bolt undone, I was able to get the bracket out and the cross-member lifted straight up, allowing the one diagonally opposite to drop down. Then it was just a matter of levering it all around until it fell through and my overhead winch thing took the strain. I got my ATV lift in position and managed to jack it up and rock the winch around until it was positioned with one support under the edge of the winch gearbox and the other under the wire rope, with a timber packer to keep it level.



Tomorrow I will lay out my sheets of steel and try dragging it around and down to the house so I can dismantle it. I can't believe how heavy it is. It's far heavier than the transfer case and I don't think my workbench will hold it, even if I could get it up there. I'll have to pull it apart on the ground. Maybe it will be light enough once I get the cable drum off.

Now that it's out, it's not a high priority. I want to get the front cross-member out so I can clean it up and use it as a template to replace the rusted out rear one. With those out, I can clean and paint the chassis rails right back to the rear diff. When that's done, I can refit the air reservoir and most of the air and fuel lines, as well as the transfer case. I'll have to make a new transfer case cross-member first.

Something I noticed when I popped the rivets out was that the holes through the chassis rail were slightly larger than the holes in the cross-member. I suppose the idea is that it will expand into the larger hole when it's fitted, locking everything tight. I'll measure the holes and drill the chassis rails out to the same size and refit them with the highest tensile strength bolts that will fit. I won't need to spread the chassis rails when I put the winch back, as I will be able to remove the cross-members from the winch assembly. Once it was down on the ATV lift, I gave 5 of the 6 bolts that hold the cross-members to the winch body a squirt with a new penetrent/rust breaker stuff I picked up today. Something I saw while squirting the thread ends is that all of the holes through the aluminium seem to have helicoils, or some other version of steel threads, same as in the top of the transfer case. Hopefully, that will make it easier to get them out.

Ah well, I still have a few days left to get things done. I'll post if anything interesting turns up.

Greg.

[Chazza]

Well done Greg! 

That torque multiplier is the twin brother of the one at my work - purchased for about the same price! Make sure you read any safety instructions when you get it; I don't know if it was the same style, but a person I knew was killed by one when something flew off and hit him in the head. As far as I can see, holding the tool firmly onto the nut is a must. Be aware too that using one to tighten a fastener, runs the risk of shearing the thread, as there is no way to measure the torque accurately.

With regard to the holes in the chassis where the rivets were; I was told when I did my fitting trade in the ARes, that rivets were used to allow the chassis to flex off-road. The difference in hole diameters may support this theory,

Cheers Charlie

[PeteFox]

I'll measure the holes and drill the chassis rails out to the same size and refit them with the highest tensile strength bolts that will fit

Greg
You could try " grouser plate bolts" used for bolting the track plates on to dozer track chain. The shank of the bolt is slightly larger than the thread and they can be driven in to be a tight fit in the holes you drill, just like a rivet and are better than grade 8 for strength.
Pete

[Lionelgee]

Well done Greg! 

With regard to the holes in the chassis where the rivets were; I was told when I did my fitting trade in the ARes, that rivets were used to allow the chassis to flex off-road. The difference in hole diameters may support this theory,

Cheers Charlie

Hello Greg,

I realise that the Inter is your truck - therefore it is your property to do with what you will.

I am also not a mechanic nor am I an engineer. However, I have read a number of forums around the replacement of chassis rivet and chassis bolts. I came across a video of a chassis riveter made in 2013 and they faced the same engineering criteria that the designers of the Inter faced in the 1960-1970s. So in 2013 they are still using rivets instead of bolts on a chassis in specific places. 

So I would have to agree with Charlie about replacing old rivets with new rivets. They must have been placed there for good reasons in the 1970s and in truck manufacturing it looks like the same reasons held true in 2013. Otherwise chassis rivets would have be considered to be a relic of an old technology and no longer be used in current truck chassis manufacturing techniques. The video clip is of a very modern version of riveter however there are videos on old truck restoration forums where it involves two people with a pneumatic hammer worth less than $100

Anyway, here is the clip Accessed  1st of January 2016 from, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTfhbayGTqw.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[john.k]

Rivets were used because they are cheap and dont require precision holes,nor for the holes to line up.The considerably undersize[7/16 rivet in 1/2 hole] rivets are cold pressed and swell out to fit the hole.The only Transport Dept  approved method of replacement is tight bolts in alignreamed holes.If you dont have a hydraulic riveting plant,hammered rivets are not satisfactory.Use grade 5 bolts,nothing stronger is required.Modern jap trucks use heaps of rivets,but most yankee trucks use special fittings like "Huck rivets".Bolted chassis were often an extra priced option ,for instance Mack used to advertize "body bound bolts" in reamed holes for extra duty and for cattle cartage,where urine and **** would get between the rails and corrode out chassis in short order.Its a pity you aint local,as I have army fitted winch cables .Wire rope is a dear item nowdays.Your springs dont look too healthy either,the helper behind in the winch picture is cactus.I put 4 ton of springs in the last bin to go.The guys at the scrapyard are making a list of all the trucks they have never heard of,but getting in my bins.They pulled out a Federal gearbox and have set it up ,and are pretending to change gear with the three gearsticks.They had never heard of a Federal.Regards John.

[Ravvin]

Thanks all, for your suggestions and interest.

I'm back to working a full week again now. The money is good, but I don't get a lot of time to do anything to the truck.
I've had all of the winch mounting brackets and the air actuator soaking in a bucket of diesel for a week now. During the week I picked up a 12L parts washer with some of my Xmas bonus Supercheap gift card. It will make things a lot less messy compared to how I have been doing things. The soaking in diesel is helping a lot by getting right into all the corners and under the flaky rust bits. I'll have to keep my eye out for a cheap sand-blasting cabinet for cleaning up the small bits without wasting grit.

I pulled the air actuator apart today. The outside is very rough with a lot of pitting. There was an EMEI where they replaced the steel barrel with a brass one, but mine didn't get that done. The bolts holding it together were almost rusted through. I couldn't undo any of the nuts. They were too rusted to get a decent grip with a spanner, so I snipped through the bolts with the grinder. Have to be careful doing that. We are in a total fire ban and down here, that means no grinding, welding or anything that can cause sparks outdoors. Even mechanised crop harvesting in paddocks is banned during the hot hours of the day.
 


The inside of the barrel and the main actuator shaft are spotless. There was a lot of grease in there and the rubber piston looks as good as a new one. I did have to push the rod out of the end seal, (part 10 in the diagram), with the press, but it doesn't seem to have scratched anything. The packing nut, (part 13 in the diagram), is aluminium and is very corroded around the top where the spanner fits to undo it. I don't know if I will be able to get it out or if it will be reuseable if I do. One of the arms on the clevis fork is also badly corroded. If I can't find a replacement, I might be able to clean it up, fill the divots with weld and file them smooth again. Lot of stuffing around for a small part.

The winch is halfway between the truck and the house. It's ridiculously heavy. I managed to reposition it on the trolley and wire it in place so it won't fall off again. I am laying down a couple of sheets of steel off the truck tray sides and leapfrogging them as I drag the trolley across the yard. I'll get it the rest of the way down to the house when it cools down a bit. The cable dragging along behind isn't making it any easier. Even though it is really rusty, it is still very flexible. I'll find out if ATV's are allowed on any local beaches and take it for a drag through the sand. We used to clean rusted up anchor chains like that.

John.k, if I was closer I would definitely be raiding your spare parts collection. A winch cable and couple of sets of springs be a bit much to stick in the post. 

Greg.

[Ravvin]

I had a couple of friends over today so I put them to work. It took all 3 of us to lift the transfer case down off the workbench and onto a small pallet. And we still dropped it. It only dropped about a foot, so no damage done to the transfer case, but the pallet got a bit busted up. Oh well.
Then I got them to give me a hand to get the winch across the yard. I had it wired down to the ATV lift and it was easy enough to get to move. The difficulty was in stopping it before it ran off the end of the steel sheet and got bogged on the grass. The yard isn't really steep, but it's hard to chock the trolley so it won't move while you run around and pick up the sheet of steel from the back and run it around to the front. We managed to get it down to the house, but there's no way it's going on the workbench until it's in a few more pieces. It's really surprising how heavy it is. I checked out compatible cable and 6-25 black RHOL is around 107kg/100m, so the rope on the winch, including the length running across the yard that was running out the back of the truck and around to the front, should be about 75kg. The drum and gearbox housing with gears must be really thick metal to weigh so much.

Some new toys arrived in the mail through the week. The first was a 3/4" breaker bar. The one from work worried me as it had a big handgrip area, but the main shaft was a lot thinner and it flexed alarmingly when I put my 1m length of pipe on it. This one has a 1" shaft and seems a lot stronger. Also, it's mine, so I won't feel bad if I break it. $35 inc freight. I'd buy locally, but they wanted $110 for the one that work has and a LOT more for a name brand one.
The second thing was a bundle of big imperial spanners. Two of them just happened to be in sized that fit things on the truck that I don't have sockets for and standard large spanner sets don't seem to have. $10 for the spanners and $15 for the freight. Can't beat that when the cheapest 1-5/16" spanner locally was $90 ex gst.
Finally, my new favourite toy, the torque multiplier. When it arrived, the ladies down at the post office offered to get the door for me. They thought I'd need both hands to lift it. Turns out it is a bit over 10kg in the case with the extension bar and 4 sockets. When I opened it, I was not really stunned with the quality. It looks cheap, with a rough cast finish. The sockets look nicely machined and really heavy duty, but they are 1" drive. When I bought it, I thought it was 3/4" drive. Oh well. Today I got to try it out on the winch. The 6 bolts holding the heavy angle iron of the cross-members to the winch body are 7/8" UNF with 1-5/16" heads. The holes in the aluminium of the winch all have what looks like helicoils or time-serts. The bolts had been getting soaked in the nasty corrosive stuff that ate through the tray, so I rolled the winch on it's side and squirted a load of penetrating liquid into the ends of the threaded holes. I left it to soak for 2 hours and occasionally gave them another squirt. I rolled it back over and nothing ran out, but it sure lifted the last of the paint off the winch housing around the hole. I'll have to watch it if I use this stuff anywhere near painted stuff. I tried the breaker bar, extension pipe and impact socket again, but there was no way that was going to work. I stuck the torque multiplier on it, put the dinky little winder handle on and gave it a few turns. After a turn or two, it got harder, but I was still using one hand. I was working backwards, pushing it away from me instead of using my weight to turn it over like crank-starting a car or truck, but I needed to do it like that as I needed to brace against the trolley as it wanted to trundle away. I kept winding, thinking I was wasting my time, as it wasn't getting harder, when I realised it was actually unscrewing. I wound away for a while and it got a bit easier. I counted the turns and it takes 65 turns of the handle to turn the socket once, so 1:65 ratio. Not quite the 1:110 claimed in the listing, but I sure wouldn't want to have to fully undo a nut at that ratio, especially a UNF one. The other 2 bolts on that side came out just as easily.



I rolled it over and gave the 3 on the other side a soak and left for a while. When I undid these, one was really tight and I had to use both hands. 
The thread inserts all look good, but have some rust and crud on them from the reaction between the aluminium and nasty chems from above. As they seem to be inserts, I think running a tap through them might be a bit excessive. I'll try a bronze brush in a drill on slow with a good squirt of WD40 and see how that goes. I'll use a good antiseize when I put it all back together.



Not much to see in the end-on pic, but it looks like there is a brass sleeve between the centre shaft and the aluminium end housing, number 36 in the exploded view drawing. Mine appears to be seized solid. I'll take the grease nipple off and try cleaning out any old grease, then I'll fill it with this new penetrant stuff and see if it frees up. I gave the aluminium ends a good smack with a piece of timber, but it won't move. If I really have to, I can probably fit it in the press if I make up a couple of cross-bars to support the ends. I'll try to avoid that as it's so heavy that something is likely to get damaged when it lets go. I probably can't get new parts for these now, so I want to avoid breaking things.

Greg.

[Murray Mk4 Inter]

I'm enjoying reading your updates. Keep up with the good work.

Murray

[john.k]

Plenty of  winch bits at the other yard.new shafts,gearsets,bushes,flanges etc.Hope they arent too rusty,havent looked in a while.The mainshaft is quite soft,and rusty/scored journals can be turned undersize to clean up.and new bushes made.They are a good winch,and I have fitted heaps of them to tilt-trays.They will break 5/8 cable,and one even ripped a Chinese tractor in half.Few surprised faces when that happened.Regards John.

[Chazza]

I
The thread inserts all look good, but have some rust and crud on them from the reaction between the aluminium and nasty chems from above. As they seem to be inserts, I think running a tap through them might be a bit excessive. I'll try a bronze brush in a drill on slow with a good squirt of WD40 and see how that goes. I'll use a good antiseize when I put it all back together.


Not much to see in the end-on pic, but it looks like there is a brass sleeve between the centre shaft and the aluminium end housing, number 36 in the exploded view drawing. Mine appears to be seized solid. I'll take the grease nipple off and try cleaning out any old grease, then I'll fill it with this new penetrant stuff and see if it frees up. I gave the aluminium ends a good smack with a piece of timber, but it won't move. If I really have to, I can probably fit it in the press if I make up a couple of cross-bars to support the ends. I'll try to avoid that as it's so heavy that something is likely to get damaged when it lets go. I probably can't get new parts for these now, so I want to avoid breaking things.

Greg.

Good progress Greg!

A friend of mine had a mechanic run a tap down an insert and it ended up in tears, and a visit to a man with a machine who had to spark-erode the broken tap - so your decision to use a brush is a wise one. 

Be careful about pressing against the aluminium casting, it will break quite easily, especially if you press on the ends. Try warming the aluminum with an LPG torch, as well as using penetrating fluid. Can a 2-legged puller be used near the centre of the casting?

Cheers Charlie

[Ravvin]

Thanks Charlie.
I came to the same decision regarding pressing the shaft out. Because of the thickness of the aluminium housing/brass bush, almost 4", I figured that with the pressure on the end of the shaft and the supports on the ends, it may even flex the end frame enough that it would actually grip the shaft tighter towards the outside edge. Every time I wander past I dribble a bit more penetrating stuff on the end. Its oily so doesn't evaporate like a solvent and it keeps disappearing so it must be getting in. I pulled the grease nipple out and the passage is full of hardened grease. Tonight I will try to pick out as much as I can and then fill my little grease gun up with more penetrating oil and pump some in. Not sure it will work, but it's worth trying. If I can get enough in, I will work the end frame backwards and forwards and try to get it loose enough to slide off.

I wish the weather would change, but it's almost February and that's usually our driest month of the year. My area is under total fire ban. You can't even use anything outdoors that may cause a spark, like grinders, welders or even mowers. There are over 80 fires burning already, most from a recent spate of lightning strikes from a dry storm last week. The smoke is being pushed from the west coast right across to me here in Devonport. It's so thick you can almost feel it when you breathe. There's supposed to be a NW change late today, so that may blow it inland and away from where I am. Check out the pics I took up and down the street outside work.

 

It looks far thicker to the eye. Bet there's a lot of asthmatics suffering with this going on for days at a time.

Greg.