Author Topic: Inter 170-952  (Read 174655 times)

Offline Ravvin

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #75 on: April 05, 2015, 03:41:19 PM »
Well, I got a bit done.
I got the 3/8" trailer brake line replaced and made a new front driver's side brake line and fitted it.
I got the new clutch slave cylinder fitted and cleaned, painted and refitted the clutch line, but I can't get the damn thing bled.
There's nobody around to help today, so I used one of those one-man bleeding bottle kits. Super frustrating.
For it to work, I had to have the bleeder screw looser than I liked, which meant it kept sucking air back when I let the clutch off.
Any tighter and the fluid wouldn't run out. After going through loads of fluid, I finally got to a stage where no bubbles came out.
Unfortunately, when I got in and pushed the pedal with my foot, I could see the clutch rod was only moving about 10mm, right at the end of the clutch pedal's travel.
I have a feeling that there is a large air bubble in the line at its highest point, where the flexible section bolts through the lug fixing it to the cab above the radiator.
I think I might try doing a reverse bleed on it. I'll get a couple of large syringes and a helper, then force fluid through it from the slave cylinder bleeder and have my helper suck any excess out of the master cylinder reservoir so it doesn't overflow.
I'm betting there will be a big heap of bubbles come through and that should fix it. Seems silly having a high spot in the line like that, far higher than the master cylinder.
I would have taken the line out of the master cylinder and dropped it down, through a lower hole in the firewall and then run it along the inside of the engine bay, secured to the low fibreglass section that the engine cover fits on. Then I would run a short flexible section across and into the slave. That way, the master cylinder would be the high point and make bleeding easy.

Greg.

Offline Chazza

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2015, 09:01:38 AM »
Greg, try doing what I do on Series Rovers.

Stamp on the pedal as hard as you can several times with the bleeder nipple open. The initial rush of fluid pushes the air down the tube and has always worked for me,

Cheers Charlie
S2 Command Recce '59
S2A 109" GS '63
S2A Fire Truck '64

Offline Ravvin

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2015, 06:43:38 PM »
Great, thanks, I'll give it a go after work tomorrow.
I have to be really careful as the reservoir only holds enough fluid for about 4 full presses of the clutch with the bleeder open. Found that out the hard way yesterday. I was inside, pressing with my foot and leaning down to crack the bleeder while it was pressurised and just when it seemed I was getting the last bubbles out, I heard it suck air at the reservoir.

Greg.

Offline john.k

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #78 on: April 06, 2015, 07:30:56 PM »
Back bleeding is easily done with a slightly modified trigger action spray bottle.Simply adapt the spray nozzle to a flexible tube,and connect the tube to the cylinder bleeder.This works very well with some small jappa trucks,where every thing is built to be serviced by midgets.Ive known guys to take days trying to bleed a clutch.Do the same for your brake system,and you wont waste a drop of brake fluid,and you wont need any compressed air either.Regards John.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2015, 05:39:58 PM »
I gave it a go.
4 reservoirs full later, I got it to a stage where it moves half the distance it should, so that's better, but not enough.
The main problem is that the reservoir only holds enough for 4 full pumps of the pedal, and the high spot where I think the air sits is right up near the master cylinder. Stupid design.
I'll try again tomorrow if anyone is around when I get home, so they can top the reservoir up as I go, but I think I'll have to back bleed it to get it all out.
After running 3/4 of a bottle of fluid through it, I know its all clean and there are no leaks. I haven't clipped the 1/4" clutch fluid line to the fuel and oil lines yet, and it's a bit alarming the way it moves and flexes when the pedal is depressed.
If it gives me much more trouble, I'll replace the whole line with braided stainless and run it down right from the master cylinder. No annoying high spots then.
John.K, thanks for the idea of the squirter bottle, but doesn't the brake fluid dissolve the trigger insides? I tried it once ages ago when I was removing paint from an aluminium dingy, and it killed the sprayer almost instantly. That was a long time ago though, so maybe modern ones are made of better materials.

Greg.

Offline john.k

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2015, 09:11:29 PM »
I use the bigger sprayers meant for gardeners,so they might be made of better plastic.One meant for liquid starch might only be good with water.Anyway, Ive had no trouble,I just finished doing a forklift brake system by back bleeding.The master cylinder pushrod was wrongly adjusted,and the brakes would never have bled by pumping the pedal.The sprayer pump came up hard,so obviously the fluid port was obstructed.Quick adjustment of the pushrod,the job took a half hour instead of all day,trying to figure out why it wouldnt bleed.Forklifts are allways a nightmare to work on due to inaccesible parts.Regards John.

Offline Bluebell One-eight

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2015, 09:42:12 PM »
I gave it a go.
4 reservoirs full later, I got it to a stage where it moves half the distance it should, so that's better, but not enough.
The main problem is that the reservoir only holds enough for 4 full pumps of the pedal, and the high spot where I think the air sits is right up near the master cylinder. Stupid design.
I'll try again tomorrow if anyone is around when I get home, so they can top the reservoir up as I go, but I think I'll have to back bleed it to get it all out.
After running 3/4 of a bottle of fluid through it, I know its all clean and there are no leaks. I haven't clipped the 1/4" clutch fluid line to the fuel and oil lines yet, and it's a bit alarming the way it moves and flexes when the pedal is depressed.
If it gives me much more trouble, I'll replace the whole line with braided stainless and run it down right from the master cylinder. No annoying high spots then.
John.K, thanks for the idea of the squirter bottle, but doesn't the brake fluid dissolve the trigger insides? I tried it once ages ago when I was removing paint from an aluminium dingy, and it killed the sprayer almost instantly. That was a long time ago though, so maybe modern ones are made of better materials.

Greg.
A couple of comments on the progress, in the design used when the truck was made, the line did take a more direct route, but engine heat caused problems and there was a mod to how it is now! If you elect to change it and experience problems, then a shield fashioned from sheet metal would probably help, even covering the line with heavy aluminium foil may be enough. There was a comment about the valve in the brake master cylinder perhaps not being necessary, but I would say it is because there were problems experienced with a faulty one and I personally had the brakes disappear on an arterial road in Melbourne in a Mk3 when the valve failed to seal. The whole fleet had to have that valve replaced. The strange part is that the log book said the valve had been replaced, but somehow it wasn't. The failure in my case was nearly a decade after the instruction to replace it.  Paperwork is infallible ??? One way to reverse bleed is to use the smallest pressure pot weed sprayer you can buy and use it. Simple and cheap.

Offline john.k

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2015, 07:37:44 PM »
Ford and Leyland trucks of the late 70s early eighties used flexible plasic tube in the clutch line,without fittings.If you applied max pressure to a stuck slave cylinder ,the tube would blow off.In my opinion ,the brake system on these Accos is unsafe,certainly for modern traffic conditions.They should have a divided system,with a duplex booster,which is what IHC fitted to the later tilt cab commercial trucks.The Bendix master cylinder fitted is not meant to be air boosted,the correct Girling booster as fitted to english trucks should have been used.But at least an effective hand brake was fitted,again thanks to Girling,They could have used the pathetic tailshaft handbrakes that IHC allways used,which either didnt work at all,or made the truck kangaroo hop if it was empty.Regards John.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #83 on: April 11, 2015, 05:25:13 PM »
Well, it looks like I may have all the air out now. I tried using a bottle similar to the ones Aquadhere comes in, by forcing brake fluid back through the bleeder nipple, but that didn't work. I was constantly having to suck some out of the master cylinder reservoir so it didn't overflow and ruin my paint job. I eventually ran a length of 3/16" clear plastic tubing from the bleeder nipple back up to the reservoir. This way I was able to stand at the front and pull on the clutch pedal and still be able to keep an eye on the level. At first, I got a few small bubbles. If I gave it more than about 6 full pumps, the fluid seemed to become aerated. Then I had to wait until it formed into larger bubbles and worked it's way to the high point in the tubing. This got boring really quickly. I couldn't see how air could be getting in to cause the bubbles, as the bleeder was sealed with thread tape. I figured it had to be a large bubble somewhere that was slowly being distributed through the fluid as it surged back and forth. I squeezed the pipe as tight as I could, up where it ran back into the reservoir, and pumped like mad. It was only flowing one way then, and after maybe 20 strokes, I got a surge of bubbles and it was suddenly a solid, clear stream of fluid. I kept pumping it around for about a minute, but it stayed bubble-free. I'll leave it overnight in case there is air still in there somewhere and then pump most of the old stuff out, while topping it up with the new bottle. I think this will be necessary as I had the top of the reservoir off for ages while I worked and it would have absorbed some moisture. Also, it started off a light yellow colour, and now it is almost brown.
After I got that done, I adjusted the clutch push rod to remove about 10mm of slack. I'd noticed that I could move the rod back a bit before meeting any resistance, and this space is now gone. I'm not sure if there is supposed to be any free movement in the rod, but it now seems to move the arm connected to the clutch throw-out yoke much further. I suppose I won't really know until I get it running again.
The next thing back on was the starter motor. That was fun. You can't get a socket on the top bolt. You can only move the 3/4" spanner a tiny amount each time as you hit the block or clutch slave cylinder. Got it all tightened up eventually though.
Once that was done, I had to replace a section of the wiring that runs to the generator. As you can see below, the old wiring was pretty cooked.



My assistant was paying close attention, as you can see.
I think what happened was the old wires weren't held to the chassis rail with a clip and melted on the exhaust manifold. Once that happened, I think they shorted, as the melted section ran back a long way. I cut them both off and stripped them back until I had clean copper, then soldered on new sections. I used heatshrink on each section, then taped over that. Then I slid bigger heatshrink over both of the wires and put the whole thing in that split cable wrap for extra protection. It will be interesting to see if the generator still works when I get it started next.
Tomorrow I plan on refitting the 2 exhaust pipes and the new muffler.

Greg.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 06:30:58 PM by Ravvin »

Offline Ellard

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2015, 03:58:10 PM »
Hi there

Need to comment what a great write up - looking forwards to seeing the progressive reports and the finished Inter.

We used to have one of theses as a Fire Truck at Woomera, unstoppable off-road.

Well done Greg

Wayne
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Offline Ravvin

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2015, 04:57:34 PM »
Thanks for that. Good to see some people are reading it. :)
Today was a bit mixed, with regards to results. I started refitting the exhaust pipes and got them roughly in place, with new sealing rings and bolts. I tried to unbolt the support plate that the far end of the muffler is hung off so I could clean and repaint it, and sheared both 3/8" bolts off. At least the bracket is off and repainted now. Just need to pick some new bolts up tomorrow. When I cleaned the 2 flat 1 1/2" steel straps up that go from the bracket to the muffler, I found that the bolt holes had stretched over the years and wouldn't hold much longer. I'll have to pick up some new flat steel tomorrow and drill it. Then I had to find the old muffler as there is a 1" wide flat steel strap that runs around it to support the outer end. This was so badly rusted that it snapped when I tried to open it out enough to get over the rim on the end of the muffler, so I have to make a new one as well. At least I have the old bits to use as a template.
I packed all that away and looked for more info on the clutch system. I found the detail I needed in the MK3 Workshop Manual. I had this book in about 5 different PDF files, so I converted it all into a single PDF and put an index in to make it easier to find things. It explained how to get just the right amount of slack in the rods of the master and slave cylinder. While checking the master cylinder end under the dash, I realised I had the push rod clevis and pin in the top hole of the clutch pedal mechanism. This was where it was before I pulled it all apart to clean and repaint, as I actually made a note so I wouldn't get it wrong. What I saw was that when the pedal was pushed all the way in, the push rod was on a fairly sharp angle to the bore of the piston. Also, the piston was only moving about 20mm. I changed it to the bottom hole and now it travels about 30mm and the rod stays pretty much parallel to the cylinder bore. The best thing, though, is that the master cylinder piston doesn't bottom out and the  push rod from the slave cylinder to the throw-out bearing yoke moves almost twice as far as it did before I made the change.
The guy I got it from in South Australia told me that the clutch was leaking and that he would pull it off and put a new kit in it. I'm guessing he put it back on and in the wrong hole.
Now I'll just have to work out how to adjust the gear lever linkage so that I can get into first without the gearstick hitting the intake manifold.

Greg.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #86 on: April 26, 2015, 05:01:03 PM »
Got a bit more done today.
During the week I painted the radiator and oil cooler top and bottom tanks. I got them both back in the support frame with all new spring washers, as the old ones had lost their spring.
I managed to get it back in the truck and then found that the bolts at the back that go through the rubber bushes to support the top had been rubbing on the metal brackets and were badly worn. I managed to round up new bolts and some new suspension bushes that were the same size as the old deteriorated ones but when I went to fit them, I realised that the holes in the radiator support frame were so far to the sides that the bolts would touch the brackets and would just wear again. After taking some measurements, I saw that the distance across the front of the support frame was almost 20mm less than the back measurement. The front has a metal rod with eyelets on the end bolted across it to stop it spreading, but there is nothing on the back. I did see that it was supposed to have a fan shroud mounted on the back and mine doesn't have one, but that seems a bit too flimsy to pull the sides in 20mm and hold them. I got my sash cramps out and was easily able to pull the back of the frame in so it matched the front and the support rubbers lined up dead centre. Tomorrow I will grab a length of 1" flat bar, cut it to length, drill some holes at the ends and paint it. The new bolts I used for the top support rubbers are longer than the originals, so I will use them to hold the brace. That should help take any flex out of the support frame and stop the rubbers chewing out.
I put the new thermostat in and fitted new radiator hoses, using some non-hardening sealant and put a radiator sock in the top hose. This should catch any chunky crud that comes loose from in the block once I run decent radiator additives. I only filled the radiator with water this time as I want to dump it after I have run a good dose of engine oil flush through the engine.
I checked the dipstick before starting the truck and found the oil was really foul. It stunk, and was an odd colour, sort of an off-brown with caramel streaks through it. I decided it would be a better idea to run it until hot, drop the oil and filter, then run some cheap oil and flush through it before dropping that and putting proper, good quality oil in it.
I hooked up the battery leads and primed the fuel pump, as it hadn't been run since around New Year. When I hit the button, it turned over, but didn't quite have the power to kick in. It's only a small el-cheapo battery that was in it when I got it, and the generator wires had been melted previously, so it hadn't been getting a charge. (I've since replaced the melted sections and clipped it up out of the way.) With jumper-leads to another battery, it started first touch. As an added bonus, when I rev it a bit, the amp meter in the dash shows the generator is working again.
While it warmed up, I kept an eye on it for leaks, but it didn't have any. I found that the oil pressure and temp gauges weren't moving, and that was odd because they did last time I had it running. After poking around a bit, I realised that it was just a simple earthing issue. I had the dash panel unbolted to get the pipe off the air pressure gauge, and there was no metal to metal contact between the gauges and the body of the truck. I put the panel back in place and stuck a single screw in and the gauges started moving. Simple.
It was a lot quieter, with the new muffler on. Unfortunately, the high-temp paint I used on the exhaust pipes and muffler really ponged as it baked, and all that smell came straight up into the cab.
I ran it for about 20 minutes, until the temp gauge came up. The oil pressure sat just over Idle the whole time. I dropped the oil and left it to drain for half an hour or so. The oil was only warm, not hot, so I guess the gauge only registers the coolant temp. I'll fit a TM2 Engine Watchdog gauge before I start driving it. One temp sensor can monitor the coolant and one can do the head. Less chance of expensive surprises that way.
The oil and stuff had mixed  and were now a normal black colour. Still stunk like old, rotten oil. When I drained the oil catch pan into the waste drum, there was no metal or solids in the bottom, so that's a good sign. I'll have to get a magnetic drain plug before the final flush.
Tomorrow I will pick up some cheap oil and run the flush through it. Once the final good oil is in, I will drop the water from the radiator and fill it with proper anti freeze/boil/corrosion stuff. I have a bottle of RMI 25, but I will keep that until the truck is on the road so I can run it the required amount of time. That is a long way into the future though.
When I pulled the oil filter housing off I got a surprise. As you can see in the RPS diagram below, the filter is supposed to have holes in the top for the oil to run through. In the pic of my oil filter, you can see they put it in upside-down. They also put the nylon washer (3 in the RPS pic) on top of the filter, where it did nothing. (You can't see the nylon washer as I took it off to clean the top for the pic.) The weird thing is that the nylon washer had actually once been used correctly, under the nut that holds the whole assembly together. I know this as there are grooves pressed into it that match the ones in the washer I removed when I undid it all.



The filter was also stuck. There is a ridge pressed into the housing down near the bottom, and when they put the filter in the wrong way around, the metal cap got forced past this ridge. I had to lever the top cap off, pull the filter material and steel mesh cover out, then knock a hole in the cap that was stuck so I could get a hook through it to forcibly yoink it out.
Once I got it out I was able to give the housing a bit of a clean up. That filter had been in there upside down for so long that the sludge that normally would collect inside the filter had built up in the bottom, under the filter. I scraped a lot out but couldn't get it all. It was thick and grey and looked like that Nickelseize paste, but thicker. I left the housing soaking in some diesel and will have another go at cleaning it tomorrow.
I checked in the top part of the filter housing (4 in the pic above) and there looks to be a very old and perished square section o'ring in the groove, but it's really mashed in tight. I'll have to take the housing in once its clean and see about getting a few new ones. The after-market Ryco filters don't come with these.
Well, that's it for today's update. As usual, small things accomplished and new issues discovered, but it was all fun.

Greg.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 06:32:12 PM by Ravvin »

Offline Chazza

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #87 on: April 26, 2015, 06:12:31 PM »
Good work on the oil filter Greg! Your attention to detail will pay off in the short and long run.

I buy rare earth magnets from these chaps; they are surprisingly cheap if you buy 10 or more. http://www.lodestoneindustries.com.au/typessizes.asp#neorings

I use a brass screw to hold them in place to the drain bung, with the bung suitably drilled and tapped,

Cheers Charlie
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S2A 109" GS '63
S2A Fire Truck '64

Offline GGG

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #88 on: April 26, 2015, 08:16:56 PM »
Greg,


Offline Acco 4x4

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Re: Inter 170-952
« Reply #89 on: April 26, 2015, 11:24:42 PM »
Hi Greg, I take my hat off to you! Thank you for saving another piece of history from sims metal! Another big thank you for taking the time to share your experience with us it is certainly an enjoyable read. Some feedback for you...

1, Did you come up with a better solution re sandblasting? If not, check out Super cheap autos, they have a handy hand held hopper style blaster which works a treat! Best part is it can use normal (dried) beach sand (the fine stuff) it is cheap as in 20kg bags! I have one and for only $50 it the best tool! I have blasted everything and anything from usual steal parts to battery terminals, aluminium fittings, brass........And for the really delicate items just fill it with baking soda from Woolworths to do carbies and anything precise.

2, Did you do anything with the generator? I read it is charging now... It is very simple to wire up an alternator it can get tricky to adapt it to a generator system when you have charging gauges etc. If fitting an alternator all the supporting bits to the generator can be removed. Should you still be interested, I'm happy to send a wiring diagram for you to follow. An alternator, although not original is far superior and will help keep a battery in top condition when not driven regularly.

3, Did you end up changing the rubber diaphragm in the power assembly? These are still available and only about $30, cheap safety in my mind...The master cylinders are still also available new if yours was too far gone. I ended up re-plumbing mine and made to a dual circuit at the same time. Just a little more safety.

4, Oh yeah, before i forget, With the clutch pushrod from the slave cylinder, remember to leave some free play (about 5mm) to compensate for the clutch as it wears, this free play is taken up by clutch fluid initially when you pump the clutch the first time then as the clutch wears over time, the fluid is slowly returned to the master cylinder.

Anyway keep up the good work!

Tim