Inter 170-952

[john.k]

Unfortunately, you cant just eliminate the gaskets,without resetting the end float of the shafts in the tapered rollers.I dont know how much float an Inter should have ,but Timken cases need about 004 endfloat.The alloy case will complicate matters,as it will expand when hot and increase the float.You will find that exact replacement seals are just about extinct,and you will have to put up with the plastic rubbish that bearing companies sell these days.Regards John.

[Ravvin]

Got a bit done this morning.
As usual, good and bad outcomes.
I drilled a couple of holes in a long bit of flat bar so I could bolt it to the front of the drive flange on the transfer case to help lock it up so I could undo the castellated nuts to remove the flange. That went well.
I got the rear drive flange off fairly easily and found that the seal retainers don't actually have gaskets. What I thought was a gasket was actually a steel shim.
Whoever worked on this last should be shot. As you can see in the pics below, they used some sort of black silicon between the seal retainer and the transfer case.
They pumped so much in that it blocked the 2 oil holes in the case that let oil get to the rear of the bearing. The recesses in the back of the retainer were full.
There was even silicon blocking the oil holes which I was able to hook out. If you look at the winch drive on the left in the pic below, you will see a trail of nasty creamy gunk that ran out after I cleared the hole.

 

I'm a bit worried about the seal retainer on the winch drive.
The steel dirt & liquid deflector, #16 in the pic below from the RPS, has trapped something corrosive against the aluminium seal retainer and it has eaten the edge away, exposing the top rim of the seal.
It could make it very difficult to fit the new seal. I suppose I could always press the seal in from the back.



Interestingly, the output shaft to the rear wheels is larger than the input, front drive and winch shafts, which are all the same diameter.
I just need to remember to get 3 seals the same as the winch one and only one of the larger ones.
If I get time after mowing the jungle out back, I'll pull the front drive and input flanges off and check those retainers for corrosion as well.
Oddly, the larger rear drive flange is the only output shaft without one of the dirt & liquid deflectors, and it is in great condition. I hope the front ones aren't all corroded.

Greg.

[john.k]

If you look at the splined shafts where the shifter clutches work,you will see that the splines are variable widths.This is not wear,as some think but machined into the shafts to provide "walking guards".These variable splines provide a ridge over which the clutch cannot slide under load,so locking it in gear.The other thing about the case is that it is "back to front" compared to a Timken case.This means it will seize up the bushes in the gears if the truck is towed,unlike WW2 cases where the gears turn pumping oil into the bearings.The front gear often has the bushing loose and seized onto the mainshaft,with heat bluing on the gear and softening of the parts.These are a very good case and I have put them in modern Jap trucks as replacements,handling a lot more power.PS.... make sure you dont get the shims mixed up,they must go back where they came from.Regards John.

[Ravvin]

I'm not sure, but it's possible that the winch drive may have a problem. When I disconnected the control linkages, I'm sure the PTO was in the Disengaged position. I know the high/low/4x4/4x2 selector was in neutral as I can spin the input shaft on the transfer case and the others don't turn. The input, front and rear drives are all nice and free and I can spin them by hand. When I undid the castellated nut on the winch one, I thought it must have been engaged or something as it wouldn't move. With the 3' breaker bar on it, it did actually turn a bit before I got it positioned to lock the bracing bar against the ground, but it was very stiff. Even after I took the dirt and liquid deflector and the seal and retainer off, it was still really hard to turn over when I slipped the flange on to check. The 3' bar moves it, but you would really struggle if it was only a normal ratchet or 10" spanner.
What is likely to be the problem? If you look at the shim packs in the pic in the post above, you can see that the one on the left at the front is blue on the bottom edge. This is the one that was against the actual transfer case. I checked the others in the pack and none of them are blue. Could this just be from manufacture? It is very thin, probably the thinnest of all the shims.
I suppose one way to check if it won't turn because the PTO is engaged would be to push or pull the selector in or out, (to the opposite of what ever it is now), and see if I can turn the input shaft. 
In the pic of the transfer case, the rusty gunk on the rim of the left bearing is a mixture of rust and silicon, with some added slime from the contaminated oil thrown in for good measure. It wiped off the bearing with just a rag, but the silicon needed scraping. I'm thinking that the winch shaft seal retainer might have too many shims as there must be a gap between the raised section on the back of the retainer and the face of the bearing. If you look closely, you can see that the ridge on the rear drive seal retainer must have been touching the back of the bearing outer shell as it is clean.
The bearings have been replaced at some point as they are all Timkens. There was no noise or movement in the rear output shaft when I turned and wiggled it, but the ring that holds the bearing rollers moves around when I poked it with a screwdriver. I think it is just there to keep the rollers spaced apart and that if there was any wear, there would be noise or movement when the shaft moved.
I'm starting to think I might have to open the transfer case. I really didn't want to, but with the contaminated oil and all the extra silicon I am finding, I'm betting the bottom is full of sludge and rubbish. When I removed the bolts in the seal retainers, I found that the threads were coated with black silicon and some red stuff that looks like Stag jointing paste. The bolts even had blobs of the silicon stuck to the ends, so they must have squirted it into all the bolt holes before doing them up. The holes go right through the alloy, into the case. If I run a cleaning tap through them, I will just push it all into the case.
Looking at the pics again, I might be able to get away with just removing the cover plates below the input flange and the rear output flange. That should give me enough room to see what's in there and to flush it out the drain hole if necessary. I could probably remove the back of the speedo drive housing as well, and I should take it off to clean it anyway. I have to see if it's damaged or not. There is no speedo cable connected, inner or outer, and I want to know if it's because they damaged the housing or just tore the cable off in the scrub and never bothered replacing it. The opening in the housing appears to be taped up and has a good cm of grease and gunge covering it for added protection.

Greg.

[Ravvin]

Well, good news with the winch drive. After I removed the drive flange and used a puller to get the dirt & liquid protector shroud off, I unbolted the seal retainer and levered it off, as can be seen in the pic in the post above. When I went back later and did some cleaning, I worked out which way the PTO engagement rod had to move to engage and found that I could spin the input shaft by hand and the winch shaft turned smoothly. It's a 2:1 ratio and there must be some sort of lock or braking system inside as I definitely can't turn the winch shaft directly.

As for the seals, it looks like they are all originals. The outer part is a felt ring and the inner is a spring-loaded leather ring. I think the problem with them all leaking is that when it sits a long time, the ones above the oil level dry out and shrink. When the truck next moves, the oil is thrown around and they all leak until the seals swell up again. The problem I now have is that all the drive flanges are lightly pitted. I think I will get them put in a lathe and cleaned up with emery tape. This is more to remove any roughness that will chew out the new seals rather than trying to get them perfectly smooth. If I take them down too much, I will have further sealing issues.

I have the new seals for the input, front and rear output and winch shafts, but forgot the 3 small ones for the hi/lo/4x2/4x4 and PTO selector shafts. The PTO selector seal has been replaced some time in the past but I can't read the numbers as its been flogged in and the face is all deformed. The others are original and clearly show 855 722 R91 on the front. These are a standard 1-3/8"x7/8"x1/4" seal so I'll grab some tomorrow.
The 4 driveshaft seals are all 3/4" deep and I decided to replace each one with 2x 3/8" double lipped seals placed back to back. With 4x sealing lips, even with the pitting this should give a more reliable seal. The winch, input and front output shaft seals are the same size and all have the metal dirt & liquid shields over them, so I got the standard seals for there. The rear output shaft is larger and doesn't have a shield, so I got one standard seal and one steel-faced seal. I'll put the steel-faced seal on the outside and hopefully it will protect against any stones and dirt thrown up from the back wheels.

Before I fit the new seals, I have to get the inside and outside clean. The outside was driving me up the wall. The stuff caked on was so thick and hard, I was having trouble gouging it off with a screwdriver. Degreaser didn't have any effect. I was thinking of trying to get it to someone to try steam cleaning it but one of the guys at work suggested diesel. Its an oil, so won't hurt anything and will keep any steel bits from rusting. I filled my sprayer up and gave it all a good soaking. The next day I was able to scrape the majority of the thick layer off. I am now down to a layer of paint, so I scuffed it up with a wire brush to help penetration and gave it another dose of diesel. Once I get down to the metal I will give it a last spray and later hit it with the degreaser and pressure washer.

Then I'll move onto cleaning it's insides. The oil is creamy white, with water contamination. I think I will drain it, then force cleaner through the oil passages behind the 4x seal retainers to flush them out. After that I will refit the retainers, with the old seals, and fill the box with cleaner, turn it over by hand for a while and drain it. Depending on the condition of the cleaner solution, I may have to repeat this step a few times. Once clean, I will fit the new seals and close it up, then refill it with Castrol TFC 450 and turn it over for a while to circulate the oil through the passages. What do you all suggest I use as a cleaner though? If I use a water-based degreaser, I run the risk of some getting trapped and starting this contamination issue again. The guys at work suggested I use Wax and Grease remover as it will evaporate. This is the stuff I use for wiping metal down after cleaning/wire wheeling and before priming.

Greg.

[Chazza]

Good to hear of your progress Greg 

They are expensive, but if you want an oil-tight seal, use Speedi-sleeves on the dive-shaft flanges.

Kerosene is relatively cheap for flushing out the rubbish inside; it can even be re-used by passing it through a filter into a bucket, a paper filter would work well. It should drain out over-night quite well and could be encouraged with a blast of compressed air,

Cheers Charlie

[Ravvin]

Well, I drained the transfer case oil today, before the rain set in. There was only just over 4 litres in it, and as you can see below, it was a lovely creamy colour.



I had cleaned the oil drain pan so I could spot any metal flakes or grit once I drained the oil. There were some tiny black lumps of sludge, but nothing gritty or metallic. When poked with a finger, the sludge lumps smeared like grease. The cavity in the back of the drain pug was full of this grease/sludge. The oil didn't have that distinctive gear oil smell, just a stale chemical odour. There's no way to tell how old it is, but I know it hasn't been circulated by the gears in the transfer case since Xmas last year as one of the first things I did was to remove the front drive and input shafts so I could work underneath the truck easier. In almost 12 months, the oil and water haven't separated.

I'm going to pull each of the seal retainers and cover plates off so I can clear any silicon blockages and check the sections of the drive flanges that contact the seals. The rear wheel drive flange is in perfect condition, but the winch flange is deeply pitted. I suspect that is because it rarely got rotated, so had little oil getting to the seal to keep it lubricated. All of the pitting is on one side. I'll look into getting a Speedi-sleeve for it. I have a week off coming up, so I should have time to get it all flushed, cleaned and repainted. I'll flush the insides with kero, clean all the cover plates and seal retainers, fit the new seals and repaint everything, if the weather stays clear for a few days so the paint gets a chance to harden off.

Greg

[Bluebell One-eight]

Hi Greg, good to see you're into it again, the case should not have EP type gear oil in it. The correct oil is 50 grade mineral or detergent oil. The EP additives will attack any brass components. It would be a worry if someone had put EP oil in the case. The Gear box uses the same oil as well. Keep at it. I would guess the oil has not been changed or topped up since it left service.

[john.k]

Very good advice.The EP additives will also attack and ruin steel gears and shafts if any water is present.I dont know how many of these gearboxes I have seen wrecked by EP oil and water down the gearstick.Never use EP anywhere its not absolutely necessary in a vehicle thats not used every day or so.Beware of so-called "universal gear lubes",they are allways EP.I dont agree that EP damages solid bronze bushes  though,I think it only damages some types of sintered bushes.I have seen tractors ,trucks, cars and motorbikes wrecked by EP oils and water[condensation].Regards John.

[Chazza]

Have a look at the Penrite website for an appropriate oil, http://www.penriteoil.com.au/

Cheers Charlie

[Ravvin]

I plan on using Castrol TFC 450.
Restless Rover/Red Rocket has successfully used this oil for years in 4 of his trucks, covering many thousands of miles of Australian countryside without causing problems. Its a 50 Grade oil and commonly available. A 20L drum only costs around $110.00.
I'll use this in the gearbox, transfer case and winch. I have to work out what the other oil I need is for the diffs, CV's and steering box. I think it works out to be an 80w-90 but don't know what other specs it has to meet.

Greg.

[Ravvin]

I have a week off work, so I plan on getting lots done.
I called into the tip shop this morning to see if I could find a pole for my market umbrella, as its getting hot down here.
They didn't have anything suitable, but I picked up a really solid bench grinder for $30. It had a fine wheel on one side and I put a wire wheel on the other side.
It was perfect timing, as it got a bit of use straight away.



Before I flush out the transfer case, I am removing all the cover plates and seal retaining plates to clean behind them. I'm glad I decided to do this,
as the oil feed/drain holes behind the bearing on the winch drive were partly blocked with silicon.
The first thing I did to it today was to pull the flange off the front wheel drive spline and gave it a clean up. I had to use the press to pop the liquid
and dust deflector off as it has rusted on tight. I gave the deflector and flange a good clean up with the wire wheel and gave them a coat of etch primer
to protect them until I'm ready to repaint and reassemble everything.
As you can see in the next pic, Sikaflex Sam has struck again. Both feed/drain holes are totally blocked. There is no way oil got through here.



They even coated the bolts that hold the seal retainer on with it. When I got them out, there was a thick layer coating every thread except for the ends that were in the case.
They also show signs of red Stag pipe-fitting sealant. I'll run a cleaning tap through all the holes before I reassemble it. If they used this much sealant in the past,
I'm suspecting that leaks through the bolt threads must be an issue. If it does become a problem, I will also use sikaflex on the new bolts, but I will do it differently.
I'll put all the bolts in to hold the retainer in place, then remove them one at a time, coat the threads with sealant, but not the tip, then screw them in and torque them up.
This way no sikaflex can get into the oil ways or into the box. From what I can see, I'm betting they coated each bolt and also squirted some into the hole before doing them up.
I took the cover off the back of the winch drive shaft to check it and it was really good. Just a minor dribble of creamy oil behind the bearing.



The marks around the lip of the bearing are some sort of greasy muck, possibly from the contaminated oil. It cleans off with diesel on a rag, so I'm not too worried.
I gave the cover plate a good clean with the wire wheel and then etch primed it. Looks much better now.

 

After I get these bits all cleaned up, I will start on the main input shaft. I want to take the extension housing off as there is silicon sticking out around the edges.
Its number 46 on the pic of the exploded view a few posts back. I just hope the guts doesn't drop out when I take it off. I'd really like to take the whole front off the
transfer case to clean it properly and reseal it so I don't have any leaks, but I suspect it would take a lot of work as the bearings are all pressed into it.
I would have to adjust the end-float on all the shafts and the shim packs aren't likely to be easy to get, as the RPS says they were a Dept of Defence item.
I could probably buy sheets of shim material and cut them out. If it leaks from this joint after I put it all back together, I will consider it,
but for now I will just replace all the rusted bolts and give it a clean and repaint.

Its cooled down now, so I'll go do a bit more.

Greg.

 

[john.k]

The front housing and gear assy come off as a unit,no loose rollers to drop or anything unfortunate.There is a flanged bushing in the gear that often seizes onto the mainshaft,if the truck has been towed.If  the bush is loose on both shaft and in gear,dont worry,provided the clearances arent excessive it will work fine.Pity you dont live local,as you could come around and strip all the shims you want from cases going for scrap.Regards John.

[Ravvin]

I removed the 4 bolts that hold the seal retainer to the input shaft housing and found it was really stuck in place. After a lot of struggle, I got it out by making a rough slide hammer and hooked it behind the seal. I gave a few whacks and moved it around until I had it coming out evenly, but the old seal is stuffed now. Oh well, at least it goes back together easily now that I cleaned the corrosion off. It looks like water had been sitting behind the seal.

I took the bolts out of the extension housing and tried to remove it, but felt the whole input shaft was coming out with it, so stopped. Are you saying that I can slide it all right out with nothing dropping off or getting out of alignment? I'm hoping that is so, because I really need to put a new gasket in there. I can see where it has been leaking and someone has tried to fix it with lots of red Stag paste. I put the bolts back in for now.

After that I was cleaning up the input and front drive flanges and the seal retainers when I ran the wire wheel on the angle grinder across the back of my hand and took a big strip of skin off. I looked down and thought, "Wow, that was lucky. It must have just skimmed me. No blood and it doesn't hurt." 10 seconds later, it started beading up and the nerves started working. Oh well, the weather was changing for the worse so I packed up and worked on making new gaskets inside. Back at it tomorrow, if it's not raining.

Greg.

[Ravvin]

Hey John.K, any chance you might have any of the speedo inners and outers laying about?
I pulled the speedo housing off the transfer case to clean it and found that the cable had been removed, but there doesn't seem to be any damage to the housing or the spur gear.
As you can see in the pic, the square hole in the top of the spur drive shaft is a bit deformed, but it should be usable.
The shaft, gear, lower brass bush and the upper threaded fitting are in good condition, but the rubber shaft seal has hardened and worn.
I'm thinking this might be the reason that the case only held 4 litres or so. When they removed the speedo cable and outer sheath, they just wrapped the threaded fitting in electrical tape.
The tape has protected the thread, but it seems to be where the oil has been leaking out. After cleaning it up, I can blow down the top and it hisses out
around the shaft, so the seal isn't sealing. I tried the Iveco dealer, but none of the part numbers for the seal/adaptor or the speedo cable inners and outers are listed any more.
The seal won't be a problem as I can get some good quality o'rings and fit 3 or 4 in place of the worn one.



If anyone reading this has the speedo cable inners and outers, or know where a set may be, let me know please. For now, I'll fix the seal and tape up the thread to protect it.

Greg.