Registry of Ex Military Land Rovers

Vehicle Research => Trials => Topic started by: Taslandy on January 29, 2014, 10:04:16 PM

Title: 111-823 on heavy vehicle trials
Post by: Taslandy on January 29, 2014, 10:04:16 PM
Series 2 Shortie On Gumtree $350 NSW
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/east-lismore/cars-vans-utes/1963-land-rover-other-other/1037478407 (http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/east-lismore/cars-vans-utes/1963-land-rover-other-other/1037478407)
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Minikeg on January 30, 2014, 10:56:48 AM
Series 2 Shortie On Gumtree $350 NSW
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/east-lismore/cars-vans-utes/1963-land-rover-other-other/1037478407 (http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/east-lismore/cars-vans-utes/1963-land-rover-other-other/1037478407)

Its actually a 1959 command reconnaissance (not 1963 as ad described)

Chassis appears to be 143901425 which isnt in the database?

aaand that firewall is gone



Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Phoenix on January 30, 2014, 02:20:23 PM
Series 2 Shortie On Gumtree $350 NSW
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/east-lismore/cars-vans-utes/1963-land-rover-other-other/1037478407 (http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/east-lismore/cars-vans-utes/1963-land-rover-other-other/1037478407)

Its actually a 1959 command reconnaissance (not 1963 as ad described)

Chassis appears to be 143901425 which isnt in the database?

aaand that firewall is gone

Not only is it in the database,m but we have photos of it, 111-823

Vic. John Bamford Archive photo. No Bull bar. 973 tac
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Carzee on January 30, 2014, 06:19:49 PM
Here tis, 111-823, apparently when it was near new.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bR1rOrPpa18/UupJ2oZMqaI/AAAAAAAAFgw/8dhKWXJTOJA/w1000-h676-no/111823+and+111603-bamford-psemi.jpg)

Took some finding.

The Series 2A ambulance page [ http://www.remlr.com/2Abloodbox.html ] would be improved if there was a link to the Amb Trials page: http://www.remlr.com/john-bamford.html
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Minikeg on January 30, 2014, 06:25:03 PM
Canvas water bags on the front? Was that common?
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Richard Farrant on January 30, 2014, 06:31:56 PM
Here tis, 111-823, apparently when it was near new.

Took some finding.

The Series 2A ambulance page [ http://www.remlr.com/2Abloodbox.html ] would be improved if there was a link to the Amb Trials page: http://www.remlr.com/john-bamford.html

Of real interest here is the Leyland Heavy Recovery standing behind the Land Rovers, is this also on trial? I once saw a report from FVRDE in UK when the Leyland was trialled around Queensland.

regards, Richard
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Diana Alan on January 30, 2014, 10:17:26 PM
Here tis, 111-823, apparently when it was near new.

(http://www.remlr.com/Army-Inter/images/psemi.jpg)

Took some finding.

The Series 2A ambulance page [ http://www.remlr.com/2Abloodbox.html ] would be improved if there was a link to the Amb Trials page: http://www.remlr.com/john-bamford.html
So near new it was still undertaking trials with the Army Design Establishment. Hence the 973 and X tac.

Notice the height of the No.5 in the middle of the pic.  Looks like it has its axle in the axle over spring configuration.
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Diana Alan on January 30, 2014, 10:53:48 PM

Of real interest here is the Leyland Heavy Recovery standing behind the Land Rovers, is this also on trial? I once saw a report from FVRDE in UK when the Leyland was trialled around Queensland.

regards, Richard
More telling is that this was one of the trials of the Leyland and the Army went on to purchase the US made M543 and subsequently the M816 and not the Leylands.

There is likely a report of the trials in the National Archives.
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Carzee on January 30, 2014, 11:55:01 PM
The S2 has some writing on the off side windscreen. Also, the little cut out in the grille mesh, for civvy bonnet opening lever access, is covered in a circle-of-mesh-looking-affair.
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: bobslandies on January 31, 2014, 12:25:23 AM
The S2 has some writing on the off side windscreen. Also, the little cut out in the grille mesh, for civvy bonnet opening lever access, is covered in a circle-of-mesh-looking-affair.

It is a flat, solid, pivoted plate with a slight bump at the bottom that can be swivelled to give access to the release. The whole grille is covered with a "Chaff-guard" that is flywire type mesh in a pressed aluminium surround. Both vehicles are fitted with the "chaff-guard".

Bob

I remember having seen a photo of a Topographical Survey vehicle also fitted with the "chaff-guard" (available as an optional equipment part from Land Rover) - could be in the REMLR photos somewhere, will have a look.
Here:
http://remlr.com/sheds/ph2a_topo.html
From the Repair Parts Scale 02017 mentioned:

•Guard, mesh, protection, insect and grass 332440 (Fine stainless mesh as per factory accessories catalogue)

Look at the photo of the front of the vehicle (http://remlr.com/photos/pics3/topo_E.jpg) - someone may be able to insert it here (Tx ;)) where you can see the perimeter frame and circular cover plate.
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Phoenix on January 31, 2014, 08:47:42 AM
Split this thread to avoid confusion.  I think we have that photo at a larger size in the archive, I will check.

The canvas water bags were not common on military vehicles at least.  more so on civilian vehicles of the time.

The Command recon itself is not on trial, but is supporting the trials of the heavy vehicles according to John Bamford who took the photo.  Being as they were undertaking trials in arduous conditions, the vehicles would have been fitted with extra equipment, comms, water etc etc. 

Trailer is interesting in it's height though.  I wonder if the trailer design was still being finalised at that time?  For more photos of the Leyland, look at the 6-0/61 photos on this page of REMLR http://www.remlr.com/Army-Trials.html

Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Phoenix on January 31, 2014, 08:48:12 AM
(http://www.remlr.com/photos/Trials/JB/Tropical%20Trials%201A.jpg)
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Phoenix on January 31, 2014, 08:49:01 AM
Also some information on this page for the period http://www.remlr.com/ADE.html
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Diana Alan on January 31, 2014, 09:56:32 PM
The Leyland is still wearing the MoD Tag number. Do we have to ask EMLRA to find the records if the vehicle itself returned to the UK and were we doing the tropical trials on the Leyland for the Brits, the same as we tested the B40 powered 80" (81"modified)?
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Diana Alan on January 31, 2014, 10:06:40 PM
Also some information on this page for the period http://www.remlr.com/ADE.html
I noticed the ADE page overlooked the trials of the three different Series forward controls.The original 1962 trial of the prototype 4 cyl petrol, the 6 cyl one tested with Glen and the subsequent trial of the 6 cyl SIIB.

These were either the original 4 cylor 6 cyl SIIa trials.

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Auntikinus/Forward%20Control/Army%20Trials/S2FC02.jpg)

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Auntikinus/Forward%20Control/Army%20Trials/S2FC03.jpg)

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Auntikinus/Forward%20Control/Army%20Trials/S2FC01.jpg)

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Auntikinus/Forward%20Control/Army%20Trials/S2FC04.jpg)

Perhaps these posts should be copied to a ew thread on the trials?
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Richard Farrant on February 01, 2014, 06:07:43 AM
The Leyland is still wearing the MoD Tag number. Do we have to ask EMLRA to find the records if the vehicle itself returned to the UK and were we doing the tropical trials on the Leyland for the Brits, the same as we tested the B40 powered 80" (81"modified)?

The way I read it was that the tests were for the UK, as part of there climatic tests presumably, if you read the quote for the webpage:
The 1960/61 trial round embraced tropical trials for the UK of the Saladin Armoured Car and the FV119 Heavy Recovery Tractor; the Australian Army also took the opportunity to evaluate the Canadian full-track vehicle, the Bombadier Muskeg, and to extend trials of the prototype ambulances

There is a slight error in the FV designation, it is FV1119.

regards Richard
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Diana Alan on February 01, 2014, 09:14:25 AM
Hi Richard

I think the Oz Army closely monitored the ADE tropical trials for the Britts, e.g. we did purchase the Austin Champ after the B40 trials and we purchased the Saladin co-trialled with the P1 International prime mover and Leyland recovery tractor.

While we know that the B40 Land Rover remained in Australia until disposal it would be interesting to know what happened to the Leyland.
Title: Re: 111-823 Spotted for Sale
Post by: Richard Farrant on February 01, 2014, 10:20:20 AM
Hi Richard

I think the Oz Army closely monitored the ADE tropical trials for the Britts, e.g. we did purchase the Austin Champ after the B40 trials and we purchased the Saladin co-trialled with the P1 International prime mover and Leyland recovery tractor.

While we know that the B40 Land Rover remained in Australia until disposal it would be interesting to know what happened to the Leyland.
The Leyland may well have gone off to another climatic trial ni some other part of the world. I read a report on the Scorpion CVR(T) tests and the test team were from FVRDE, probably with Australian support, but these tests were for UK benefit rather than a sales tour, because they were still in the development of them.
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavey vehicale trials
Post by: Mike C on February 04, 2014, 10:48:52 AM
Richard,

The original book makes lots of small errors in designation: 'Lark 5' for example, for LARC-V (Lighter Amphibious Resupply Cargo-Five) and the use of M113 when they actually mean M113A1. And, as Dianna has observed, many minor trials are not covered at all: FC Land Rovers, early Unimog, J5 Bombadier tractor, to mention just a few.

But as a primary source reference, it is a pretty good start. It is certainly a far better source of information than Margaret Kaczmarek's 'A History: Army Engineering Capability 1939 to 2000' which is just full of 'howlers', for example (and one of my favourites...):
 '...The Champ was tested but never used by the Australian Army, which favoured the Landrover'. Hmmmm....

The FV1119 and the Saladin HAC were both on trial by arrangement with the British Ministry of Supply, and were the primary reason that the 1960-61 trials were conducted. The Saladin was, by that stage (1960/61 trials season) already in service with the Australian Army, so the trials were only of passing interest value to Australia (the crew commander was Peter Badman, later to be the OC, C Sqn when they deployed to SVN in 1968). The wrecker was never a contender for Aust service as far as I can ascertain, but doubtless the trials confirmed this (too big/heavy/complicated....)!  The M543 was 'trialed' during the 62-63 season, but by then was already on order anyway.

The opportunity was also taken to trial three vehicles for the Australian Army: Land Rover Ambulance (2nd/improved Prototype), Land Rover fitted for Wireless, and the S61. These were trials that were distinct from the UK trials, and were separately staffed and administered (no doubt as much for accounting purposes, as the Poms were paying for the trials of the UK vehicles).

The S61 Bombadier Muskeg was an interesting one, one of several flirtations the Aust Army had with Bombadier tracked vehicles of various sizes during the 1960s. (CAUTION: shameless self-promotional plug to follow...) My article on the little J5 and T6 trailer experiments will be featured in the next edition of Military Machines International.

Three other vehicle types were also included in the mix of vehicles used, and these were reported on, but not under test as such: a Holden FC Station Sedan used as the OCs vehicle, a Truck, Semi-Trailer, Inter, 'experimental', and three Truck, Cargo, 2 1/2 ton (Aust) No.1 - two No.1 Mk.1, and one No.1 Mk.2. One of these was used as the overland transporter of the S61.

Mike C
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavey vehicale trials
Post by: Diana Alan on February 04, 2014, 11:49:22 AM
Richard, ...
<snip>
...
Three other vehicle types were also included in the mix of vehicles used, and these were reported on, but not under test as such: a Holden FC Station Sedan used as the OCs vehicle, a Truck, Semi-Trailer, Inter, 'experimental', and three Truck, Cargo, 2 1/2 ton (Aust) No.1 - two No.1 Mk.1, and one No.1 Mk.2. One of these was used as the overland transporter of the S61.

Mike C
Mike

In relation to the International Aust. No.1 Mk1 (or Mk2) in the picture (above) with the the semi trailer.  Do we know what type of trailer it was?  Was it one of the WWII types used behind the Jailbar Fords etc or a later type?  Manufacturer/model?

The reason: there is currently some consideration of restoring an Inter Mk1 to this configuration.

Diana
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavey vehicale trials
Post by: Mike C on February 05, 2014, 03:52:10 AM
Dianna

The truck (tractor) was a No.1 Mk.1 with cargo body removed, and a fifth wheel installed approx. above the rear axle. Stowage for 3 x 44 gal drums was installed behind the cab. The trailer was a round-fronted single axle semi of WW2 vintage, don't remember who made the round-fronted ones. It was fitted with air brakes and additional under-body stowage lockers, these being the only alterations.
At around 13 tons gross, the engine was not nearly powerful enough.

Mike C
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavy vehicle trials
Post by: Diana Alan on February 05, 2014, 07:16:30 AM
Thanks Mike  :)

Just looking at the images, I had assumed it was either a Mk1 or Mk2, but now knowing it was a WWII trailer, making a replica using a Mk1 becomes possible.

While  we'reon the subject of Mk1s, I've ever fully understood the differences between the Mk1 and the Mk2.  Do you know much about these two developmental types, and what makes them which?

Diana

BTW: this  is the possible Mk1 Semi project.

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Auntikinus/Army%20Trucks/Mk1%20Mk2/mk1inter003.jpg)
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavey vehicale trials
Post by: Mike C on February 05, 2014, 09:04:05 AM
No.1 Mk1 ...... no winch
No.1 Mk2 ..... with winch

Mike C
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavey vehicale trials
Post by: Richard Farrant on February 05, 2014, 09:34:11 AM
The FV1119 and the Saladin HAC were both on trial by arrangement with the British Ministry of Supply, and were the primary reason that the 1960-61 trials were conducted.

 The wrecker was never a contender for Aust service as far as I can ascertain, but doubtless the trials confirmed this (too big/heavy/complicated....)! 



Hi Mike,
Thanks for confirming what I said, about the Leyland being in Australia to undertake the tropical trials by the FVRDE. This particular Leyland, 37BS92, was also at FVRDE Chertsey on tests, so proof enough that the trials in Australia were for the benefit of the British Army.
I had a quite a bit of experience with these old girls when they were in service and the last ones were handed in when the replacement Foden EKA arrived in mid-Eighties.

regards, Richard
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavey vehicale trials
Post by: Mike C on February 05, 2014, 12:37:20 PM
No worries, Richard.

The Brits appear to have used their Commonwealth countries extensively in the post-war period for trials and tests, by agreement with the countries concerned. The countries were not necessarily interested in the equipment, but always took more than a passing interest in the results. I am aware of trials in Canada (cold weather), Belize, Nigeria, and Australia, plus further cold weather trials in Norway, obviously through a NATO arrangement. Once the ABCA quadripartite agreement came into effect in the early 1960s, all four countries exchanged or supplied equipment and information upon request, with a liaison officer stationed in each others countries to act as the co-ordinator. The M60A1 tanks tested in the 1970s, for example, were provided under that agreement. But equipment of little or no interest to the host country was still tested under arrangement with the Brit Ministry of Supply. The CVR(T) Scorpion tested in Australia was such a trial: Australia had little interest in acquiring the vehicle.

Mike C
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavy vehicle trials
Post by: Diana Alan on February 05, 2014, 03:29:23 PM
No.1 Mk1 ...... no winch
No.1 Mk2 ..... with winch

Mike C
Thanks Mike,

I knew the Mk2 had a winch, but for some reason thought they may have other differences.

Was the winch the same ADE design, as that used on the Mk3?  (I notice the Mk2s are spread through the Mk1 ARN, so am assuming the winch was a retrofit.)

Diana
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavy vehicle trials
Post by: Diana Alan on February 05, 2014, 03:33:43 PM
No worries, Richard.

The Brits appear to have used their Commonwealth countries extensively in the post-war period for trials and tests, by agreement with the countries concerned. The countries were not necessarily interested in the equipment, but always took more than a passing interest in the results. I am aware of trials in Canada (cold weather), Belize, Nigeria, and Australia, plus further cold weather trials in Norway, obviously through a NATO arrangement. Once the ABCA quadripartite agreement came into effect in the early 1960s, all four countries exchanged or supplied equipment and information upon request, with a liaison officer stationed in each others countries to act as the co-ordinator. The M60A1 tanks tested in the 1970s, for example, were provided under that agreement. But equipment of little or no interest to the host country was still tested under arrangement with the Brit Ministry of Supply. The CVR(T) Scorpion tested in Australia was such a trial: Australia had little interest in acquiring the vehicle.

Mike C
Would have been nice if they decided to use one of the other places for the Atomic tests.  A nice island of course, the Isle of White comes to mind! Its close to military facilities of Portsmouth so logistics wouldn't be a problem. ;D
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavey vehicale trials
Post by: zulu delta 534 on February 05, 2014, 07:21:49 PM
Mk1 was built on a standard AS chassis and was only 4x2.
Very few got to see the light of day.
M11 was on a purpose built chassis, had a front diff and was fitted with a winch.
These never really saw actual service except as Unit evaluation vehicles where they were adopted by different units and run under day to day testing and evaluation conditions. That is to say, most Corps received a few and they were run alongside the Studebakers of the day, Infantry, Artillery Armour, RAASC received a few as did all the other Corps. The first one I ever came into contact with was at the R Aust School of Sigs at Balcombe in 1963 where the vehicle in question was fitted with a "sigcen" body and was run in comparison with the current Ford F500 CLs that currently were in stock. This particular vehicle possibly did a grand total of about 50 miles whilst with the school under evaluation.
The Mk3 was the first of the International vehicles to be issued as a "fait accompli" and accepted into service widely right across the board.
Those Mk11s (or P3s) as they were commonly known in many cases stayed on in service as general runabouts doing general domestic chores, prime movers for local work, rubbish runs, ration breaks etc. for a number of years.
One of our Army Transport Association members here in Brisbane was heavily involved in the evaluation project and has a pretty accurate list of the many modifications (soldier-proofing) that were carried out on the P3s whilst they  were being evaluated in 1 Coy RAASC, probably the Army's major consumer of this type of vehicle at the time.
Another of our members up here was deeply involved in the "ITONGS" project... (1 ton GS) and has published a rather controversial report on the same project, but perhaps for another day.
Regards
Glen
Title: Re: 107-352 and heavy vehicle trials
Post by: Diana Alan on February 05, 2014, 10:12:08 PM
That seems to differ from the vehicle evidence of the Mk1 TSE-16.

You can clearly see the front diff and the ARN data lists it as a Mk1 too.

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Auntikinus/Army%20Trucks/Mk1%20Mk2/mk1inter003.jpg)

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Auntikinus/Army%20Trucks/Mk1%20Mk2/mk1inter001.jpg)
 
ARN   Date   Contract   Model   Census   Nomenaclature   Engine   Chassis   Body   Tyresize   REMLR No.   Notes   Disposal   Vehicle Name   tyresize
107-352   1959   -   Mk.1   6069   Truck, Cargo, 2 1/2 Ton, GS   ABD282-16433   TSE-16   -   1200x20       QLD. Archive Photo in Blue   -   -   1200x20
 
Were there any prototypes built before the Mk1 that were 2WD on the AS chassis? e.g. a P1.
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavey vehicale trials
Post by: Mike C on February 06, 2014, 06:41:23 AM
"Another of our members up here was deeply involved in the "ITONGS" project... (1 ton GS) and has published a rather controversial report on the same project...."  Having a long term interest in the XF4 project, what is the reference/ where can I see the published report, please?

Early trials and test Inters were built as 4x2s. They were experimental and not designated as No.1 Mk.1, but as FV(Aust)13901 - how very British! Three only were built and tested in the mid-1950s.

The first contract for 4x4 vehicles built for Troop Trials were the No.1 Mk.1. I think the contract called for 100, of which a proportion (don't remember the exact number: think it was 15) were to be equipped with a winch, hence were designated as No.1 Mk.2. to differentiate them from the No.1 Mk.1. Can't say what the winch was: that will probably be buried in the file somewhere, but is not readily to hand. The No.1 Mk.3 was, as you mention,  the quantity production vehicle, with all the refinements identified in the various trials. 

Not heard them called 'P3's before, and wonder as to the origin of the term. There was a 'P' designation that was applied to the three trials vehicles by ADE, (P1, P2 and P3) of which there are many images with the large P and a number on the cabin doors. Is that the origin of the term, perhaps? The remainder of the contract were, as you say, distributed for Troop Trials to various arms of service, with the cumulative knowledge then being applied to the improved No.1Mk.3.

Mike C

Title: Re: 111-823 on heavey vehicale trials
Post by: Phoenix on February 06, 2014, 09:51:32 AM
I didn't know about the FV(Aust)13901 designation to the three prototype vehicles, I'll have to add that to the prototypes section of the history page. 

I just checked the 2 pages of information I wrote abotu the prototypes, and the information I had from the history of the acco book, and 40 years of army design match what Mike stated above.  I also realised that I never put a photo of the P3 prototype up either.  Nor referenced the History of the acco book.  Onto the to do list.

http://remlr.com/Army-Inter/development.html
http://remlr.com/Army-Inter/prototypes.html
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavey vehicale trials
Post by: Phoenix on February 06, 2014, 09:52:02 AM
Oh, and on this page we have a copy of the brochure from the Mk.1 launch http://remlr.com/Army-Inter/mk-1.html
Title: Re: 111-823 on heavy vehicle trials
Post by: john.k on September 18, 2016, 07:18:36 PM
The winch was an US made Garwood,different from the later Olding,more like the WW2 Garwoods.The transfer case was a Rockwell,with a cast iron housing,also quite different from the later David Brown.They were very prone to rusting of the cab,which was pieced together from bits.And they had a four speed gearbox of the T15a type.The rear axle housing also had extension pieces to increase the track to equal the front.Regards John.