Registry of Ex Military Land Rovers
Land Rovers => Australian Series 2 & 2A => Topic started by: AGAS 5 on March 22, 2013, 05:31:26 PM
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Hi Gang,
First off, many thanks to Ross for his research on Vietnam Land Rovers and Richard for updating the database on REMLR.com
I was looking through the list to confirm my vehicle 113-300 was listed, when I noticed the remark comments on the next vehicle, 113-303 " 1ALSG dec68 BER, 2jan69 2AOD awm95-13-3-10.pdf"
To interpret this for you it means: In December 1968 the 1st Australian Logistic Support Group in South Vietnam declared 113-303 damaged beyond economical repair. Also, on 2 January 1969, 113-303 was located at the 2nd Advanced Ordnance Depot, also in South Vietnam. This information appears to have been sourced from Australian War Memorial file 95-13-3-10 (note, I've yet to view this myself).
So what's my point ? Well, if you go to REMLR.com / information for members / member sheds and scroll down to "KJ's Land-Rover Series 2A ΒΌ Ton G.S" you will find pics of a very healthy and original looking 113-303 in private hands at Cooma in 1998.
So what happened here ? not beyond economical repair after all ?
As a side note, a very damaged and rusted number plate for 113-303 was on ebay a couple of years ago. If my memory is correct the seller stated it was part of an estate of a vietnam veteran.
Cheers,
Pete
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That is a very good question. Some vehicles are noted as beyond economical repair (and that may have only been BER in theater). It may be that it was shipped home and repaired. Yours isn't the only vehicle to have these kind of notations.
The notes that you have decyphered are the ones that Ross C is now adding to the database, and then (I hope) emailling me copies of the file for our archive.
Certainly we have found vehicles noted as being salvaged for parts, or reduced for produce still existing in Australia, which is somewhat confusing I have to say. I do wonder if the madly damage vehicles were loaded up, shipped home in that condition and repaired back at home. Certainly there is a photo of a land rover on the back of an inter on the back of a recovery trailer being towed on to a landing craft, I presume to be sent home. Perhaps it too was one of these instances. A bit of a mystery until we find more documets of a later date, or of the time explaining.
I would dearly love the homeward shipping records especially to see what condition returned vehicles are hoted as being in.
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Paperwork is the thing. I was not at 2AOD but the weekly summary sheet looks straightforward enough. A column of vehicles incoming with problems to assess and fix, a column of vehicles fixed and reissued, a column of vehicles flagged beyond local repair, and a column of vehicles beyond economic repair
I assume the ber and ble criteria changed thru the years as the local stock levels increased. One report mentioned vehicles were waiting on a resupply of transmissions. By 70 the tranny overhauls were being done locally. So just what couldn,t they fix incountry? Engines and chassis bends were maybe the only areas. Who knows. But its the case that vehicles in the ber column sometimes made it out and back in service.
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.... And I had planned on seeking out 113303 and meeting up with it again after 15 years. Soon.
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.... And I had planned on seeking out 113303 and meeting up with it again after 15 years. Soon.
hmmmmm..... I wouldn't mind being a part of that ;D
Pete
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When the Army purchases a vehicle, the initial price paid includes the price of the actual vehicle plus enough spare parts and consumables to see that vehicle through ten years or so of Army life. All vehicles break down and have to be maintained throughout their lifetime. The Army works out an equation as to how much money and time they can afford to spend on each vehicle to keep it in tip top condition.
BER does not mean that the vehicle is actually dead, simply that the sum of money that was allocated to keep this vehicle in combat ready condition had already been expended, or will be exceeded if the required repair is to be carried out! So, rather than waste more money on the vehicle it was BER'ed. The next step would have been to send it home from the Ordnance depot O/S and then it would have found itself in an auction as a "no-goer"somewhere in Australia where some keen young bloke bought it for a minimal sum.
The Government was happy as the vehicle had not cost them any amount over the budget that they had previously paid/allocated and then they got some cash back from the auction.
The purchaser was happy as he had picked up a reasonable vehicle that in his eyes was repairable within his budget, and probably got a number of years good service out of it before he got tired of the spartan set up and replaced it with a more modern and comfortable Japanese unit.
Next, possibly a collector came along, saw the potential, and spent a bit of time and money resurrecting the poor old beast back to its former glory and then took it to Cooma. (Think of someone like Dennis M here :) )
A pretty typical story for most ex military restored vehicles.
BER did not always work out on the cost side either, some vehicles may have had very little money spent on them in their lifetime but their allocated lifespan had run out. This would also be written off as a BER situation as the original contract was only for a certain number of years.
BLR on the other hand was another equation that worked out the urgency of the repair, the staff and means on hand to do the job, the availability of spare parts on hand required, the capability to handle the task successfully, and a few other requirements, and after looking at all the facts the decision was made to do it there, or if too big a job, send it back home to a base workshop.
Neither actually mean that that was the end of the vehicle.
Note in the last auctions, if you have been following them, a couple of the S line Inters were incomplete and non goers. These were obviously BER'ed by the army (strange after about 30 years service) and then flogged off. A civvy buyer could afford to spend another $10,000 on it and still have a pretty solid reasonably priced truck, but the Army could not justify writing off that amount on an already tired and oft repaired vehicle. BER is the answer.
Regards
Glen
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redo.. - - smartphones aren't quite there yet. Also, because the IP address is different, I can't modify the post at home.
:)
Paperwork is the thing. I was not at 2AOD but the weekly summary sheet looks straightforward enough.
A column of vehicles incoming with problems to assess and fix [Receipts],
a column of vehicles fixed and reissued [Issues],
a column of vehicles flagged Beyond Local Repair [BLR],
and a column of vehicles Beyond Economic Repair [BER].
I assume the BER and BLR criteria changed thru the years as the local stock levels (and special tool requirements) increased. One report mentioned vehicles were waiting on a resupply of transmissions. By '70 the tranny overhauls were being done locally. So just what couldn't they fix in-country?
There was a reference to a new 2AOD improvement being completed (and a compliment to the local carpenters), especially set up to store body panel parts.
Engine rebuilds and chassis bends were maybe the only areas they didn't have manhours and machinery to do. Who knows. But its the case in the summaries that vehicles in the BER column sometimes made it out and back in the reissue column.
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Could it have been that a number of BER vehicles were canabalised to make up a single unit to be returned to service?
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Could be.
Genn, do you mind if I include your descriptions of BER and BLE in the REMLR abbreviations page? It certainly clarifies what it means.
Richard
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Could be.
Genn, do you mind if I include your descriptions of BER and BLE in the REMLR abbreviations page? It certainly clarifies what it means.
Richard
Would that be BER and BLR?
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Sigh, alas my typos are contagious today!
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Feel free. Also there was a discussion in an earlier post that pretty well says the same thing and an interesting reply from Cookey re a Studebaker truck that underwent a complete o/haul and then BER'ed on an ancillary technicality. http://remlr.com/forum/index.php?topic=412.msg3303#msg3303.
If it helps people understand how things were, then I am only too happy to pass on the info. Just take into consideration that these "snippets" are widely a "general overview" and may be slightly technically imperfect in some instances, but should give the general idea.
Regards
Glen
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Thanks Glen. Your knowledge on this (and other) areas of our vehicles military service is very appreciated.
Pete
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:) :) :)
I have just spoken with REMLR member 025 - Ken J. who lives down in the Snowy Mt region.
I also emailled Ken the REMLR link etc.
113-303 still lives and still earns its keep.
Ken said he has recently had some local help (from a real Landy enthusiast) fitting new brakes parts and he is currently working on replacing or fixing one of the fuel tanks. Also the seats, the original green ones, look a bit shabby. Well, next year 113-303 will be 50 years old so its no surprise the seats are looking tired. Ken said the paint is still the original paint as he purchased it at auction in Sydney around 1980.
How many of us can say we have owned our ex-army Landy for 33+ years?
Looking forward to some photos next month or so.
I might also add, tracking down Ken was possible because he filled in one of those original forms I handed out at the 50th Anniversary Event in Cooma. The contact phone number for Ken is still the same... (!)
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Note to self, never move or change phone or email address, that way REMLR can find me.
Isn't there also a "one time repair cost" or something similar? cookey may explain it better, it is the reason why some vehicles get a major overhaul and the at the end need some inexpensive part which exceeds the specified repair cost of the vehicle so it goes to auction effectively a zero timed vehicle.
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Meanwhile I have re-processed the photos of 113-303 from 98 into a more modern bandwidth sizing - ie, bigger versions for Richard to update the REMLR web page:
http://camerajuice.com/113303 (http://camerajuice.com/113303)
eg
(http://camerajuice.com/113303/113303-cooma98anniv-a-1200.jpg)
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love the roped up red knob
hasnt been registered in a lonnng time, the rta doesnt recognise those plates.. and their records seem to go a fair way back (early 90's at least)
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The RTA is a nightmare organisation with records.
I was in the US in 1989 and my cars rego expired, the car was fitted with a type approved 5 litre conversion and when re-registered in 1990 the RTA registered the vehicle as a 3.5 litre even though it had a 441 prefix P76 V8 engine number. At first I didn't notice but when the 4.6 EFI engine was fitted in 1997 the jump in capacity 3.5 to 4.6 was too great to be approved without an engineers certificate even though it was actually 500cc less than the 5.1 Rockhampton Engine conversion. The RTA couldn't even bring up the 1988 records in 1997.
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Re the NSW plates, I had a '77 or 78 109in HT. That was around '90. It was in that Bahama yellow and it had its original plates "KOG-658".
So "KYG" would be around '80 I guess.
(http://remlr.com/Archive/swb/images/pkog.jpg)
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Re the NSW plates, I had a '77 or 78 109in HT. That was around '90. It was in that Bahama yellow and it had its original plates "KOG-658".
So "KYG" would be around '80 I guess.
(http://remlr.com/Archive/swb/images/pkog.jpg)
And yet, they have this on record
1980 GOLD LAND ROVER UNKNOWN PANEL VAN
VIN/Chassis: ********115C
The details for the vehicle you entered are displayed below.
Tare weight: 1570 kg
Gross vehicle mass:
Registration details
The registration is cancelled.
The registration expired on 16/11/2001.
There are no concessions on this registration.
CTP insurance details
The CTP policy period end date is 16/11/2001.
Insurer's name: NRMA
Insurer's code: 34
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Hey, Big Brother we love you, honest.
Incredible. What have you got on HFS 743? ( http://remlr.com/Archive/swb/images/scastcam1.jpg )
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Serendipity - Ken has just put this thread back on track by emailing a dozen nice photos of 113303. I will process them later today.
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HFS743 doesnt work, as you replaced the plates with RAR003 (thus removing HFS743 from being allocated to a vehicle)
RAR003 currently belongs to a blue late model commodore..
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HFS743 doesnt work, as you replaced the plates with RAR003 (thus removing HFS743 from being allocated to a vehicle)
RAR003 currently belongs to a blue late model commodore..
But in NSW RAR 03 V is currently available.
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I remember having little choice but RAR003 as it was the only one available in the series at the time when Vet plates were being released.
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Quite true, unfortunately there are after all only one of, RAR-003, RAR-004, RAR-005, RAR-006 etc by going to the RAR 0? V sequence some other vets can have them.
The annoying part these days, the 3 letters 3 numbers are considered personalised plates with a $99pa surcharge, the 3 letters 2 numbers suffix letter also attract the surcharge (unless you can stand in the right place in the queue when they are issued.) and not all of the surcharge goes to traffic accident research some goes to some ex-RTA spiv who got the contract for the Myplates franchise.
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:)
Well. Houston we have a problem.
Its not 113-303.
Ken has sent up some beautiful clear photos of his super original March '64 88 GS and that includes his Nomenclature plate with the chassis number.
The chassis number is not what we had in the Registry, its different to the one recorded in 1998. Somehow...
Maybe the numbers got written wrong but I can't imagine that; they were written on A4 forms back then.
Its a puzzle.
For a decade the chassis number recorded on the Kens Shed page was "chassis number 24305485b" which the BBB tells us is 113-303. see http://www.remlr.com/sheds/kjshed.html
The update photo Ken has sent shows us it actually chassis 24305491b which is ARN 113-328.
[ pass this to the ??? Dept. ]
The photos are good though, its in great condition.
ALSO
Ken would like to find a good place to get rear leaf springs replaced:
"I just noticed that the rear drivers side spring seems to have sagged a bit. Then again it is probably entitled to sag a bit after 50 years of solid service. I assume it is a non standard spring (in accordance with military specs). Do you or your other club members know where I might get a replacement spring?"
:)
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You / Ken could try getting a clear shot of the chassis number on the rear spring hangar..... to be sure, to be sure ;)
Pete
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Hi Pete, yeah... but no luck there. I emailed Ken to check with a damp rag and a torch yesterday and the ID plate number and chassis stamp match up.
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too bad.... 113-303 was a nice looking ARN. So that puts the original question to bed - 113-303 was declared BER by 1 ALSG in December 1968. From there she went to 2AOD on 2 January 1969. What happened then ? we don't know, but it is likely she was scrapped >>> RIP !!
Long live 113-328 !!
Ross, how about a new thread updating info/pics of Ken's 113-328 ? Alternatively we could just update his shed on REMLR.com...
Pete
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Actually, if anyone is looking for 113 303, I might be able to help.....
According to a bloke I worked with once in a previous life, He was involved in the disposal of a number of u/s land rovers and other kit in the withdrawal phase at the end of our commitment.
As the flight engineer of a RAAF herc, he told me that they dropped quite a few pallets of cactus Land Rovers into the South China Sea , out of Vung Tau field.
No use leaving them for the locals, a bit like the WW1 light horse I guess.
This came up one day when I was telling him about my Land Rover at home.
So maybe this is where 113 303 ended up? It would be interesting to see if anything turns up in the official records that Carzee is churning through at the moment.....
Snorkelling anyone?
Cheers,
Mike.
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As the flight engineer of a RAAF herc, he told me that they dropped quite a few pallets of cactus Land Rovers into the South China Sea , out of Vung Tau field.
I had a similar story told to me by an ex Digger.
Why would the army repatriate this wreck. As a shorty, it could be -303 :)
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While this is a MOD / unrelated SWB, it is nonetheless, a military land rover on the bottom of an ocean somewhere.. and looks cool for anyone who hasnt seen it?
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa81/minikeg/01-2.png)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa81/minikeg/02-2.png)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa81/minikeg/03-2.png)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa81/minikeg/04-2.png)
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Where is that one? Sssssh. ( Dennis could thro some fuel down it and get it going I have no doubt.)
Oh I see he has taken out the donk already to do some welsh plugs or similar before giving it another go... Never say never.....
There must be more to the story. How did they get bogged like that?
ps, its 109in.