Registry of Ex Military Land Rovers
Vehicle Research => Overseas Deployments => Topic started by: juddy on March 14, 2013, 08:50:03 PM
-
Some are video grabs, but none I have seen before... I had to add the tank shots... And no I have no idea who the chaps are in the pictures.
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at112027AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at112042AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at112116AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at112637AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at112826AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at112839AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at112902AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at113059AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at114201AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at114216AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at114514AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at115220AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at115304AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at115314AM.png)
-
:) some good ones there, well they look good on my screen - what video are you sourcing the screenshots from?
-
The DBG long wheelbase ones are Kiwi Army. Probably dropshorts.
Some are video grabs, but none I have seen before... I had to add the tank shots... And no I have no idea who the chaps are in the pictures.
<snip>
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at112839AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at112902AM.png)
<snip>
-
Kiwi umm, were they in vietnam?
-
The video was called Australian at war I think...
-
The DBG long wheelbase ones are Kiwi Army. Probably dropshorts.
Some are video grabs, but none I have seen before... I had to add the tank shots... And no I have no idea who the chaps are in the pictures.
<snip>
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at112839AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at112902AM.png)
<snip>
I was wondering about this Landy :).
Another shot of the same or similar Land Rover.
-
Note that the Kiwis also have the deluxe bonnet with the curved leading edge.
-
Forgot this one..
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/F72FF9F6-BA3F-446D-97A1-B16ACE5785C8-5098-000019D057A19477.jpg)
The APC on the far right, is this a signal unit?
-
I will ask a question on the above picture
Does the land rover have a front mounted exhaust? is so why, it does not look like a FFR?
-
I will ask a question on the above picture
Does the land rover have a front mounted exhaust? is so why, it does not look like a FFR?
Because in SVN with uncut mudguards it would be most likely be an SII FFT which didn't have the side battery boxes but used batteries under the table, like the larkspur radios.
Just because it is a FFT/FFR doesn't mean it is FWT/FWR and hence no antennae.
-
I will ask a question on the above picture
Does the land rover have a front mounted exhaust? is so why, it does not look like a FFR?
No tool brackets Juddy. Must be a FFT/FFW.
-
Forgot this one..
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/F72FF9F6-BA3F-446D-97A1-B16ACE5785C8-5098-000019D057A19477.jpg)
The APC on the far right, is this a signal unit?
Methinks its the command APC. The extra room is for maps (Bangkok, Manilla, Hong Kong), a drinks cooler, a jug for making tea and golf gear.
-
The last three images in the first post, the digger in the image is Korg's Dad, nice clear images of his Dad anyway cheers Dennis :)
-
I was remembering right about the Command Post: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m577.htm (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m577.htm)
-
The third photo is one for Tommy - 401 being the SASR tac sign,
Cheers Charlie
-
..another one from 2AOD vehicle park at vungers, Middleton collection. thx Dennis
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3416/3256880915_26666d0512_o.jpg)
-
...and another. 1971 (RAAOC Mick Smithwick)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3616/3686269991_59d79f773d_o.jpg)
-
'cleaners cart' bogged at vungers 71.
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6067/6075014000_3544102a7e_o.jpg)
-
another - tour of Vung Tau 69. Kevin Sobey.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3624/3655830949_260bf4bf6c_o.jpg)
-
Since I'm restoring a GS 109 I should note
that there's no passenger side ext mirror.
that those wheels show what too much drab looks like. I think the nuts and hubs should be black.
that the scone cutters are not totally painted white.
I am liking these big photos and the detail in them.
I have waited for big photo files like these a long time so excuse me!
-
Christmas 69 at Vung Tau Orphanage. K Sobey
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3606/3656627464_28ff64c47d_o.jpg)
-
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2557/4058505584_a18c945707_o.jpg)
-
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3492/4058508738_c6849fa8b9_o.jpg)
-
this one shows variety is the thing - dif bonnet spare tyre brackets, dif ARN plate locations, and 112-051 appears to have a orig b/w grille badge. 2AOD vehicle park vung tau
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2465/3645829202_c49ec38385_o.jpg)
-
note the joe coolin' strap on the spare tyre bracket . Phil Potter 2AOD. 113-749
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3659/3645636701_9cbffeda15_o.jpg)
-
In the last few days examining 2AOD diary files from the AWM collection...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8IU0nN5LHB0/UUJ5Xn9YgOI/AAAAAAAACpk/GiRDbh27UB4/s1440/2aod-forms-awm.jpg)
.... I noticed several Series 2 FFW /FFR census 6006 were listed and showed up over and over and over on the list of 'stock' for over a year, from about sept 67 thru 69. These ARNs were 111-209, 111-434, 111-482. There other long termers as well.
.. I guessed the Series2s may have been 'stored' by Sigs for being pos earth 12v or 24v or incompatible in some electrical way with the latest issue radio set or something.
Here's a revelation worth a thousand words.
Little did I know they were being picked over for parts out in the sand.
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4033/4270190723_32953f8fb6_o.jpg)
-
Christmas 69 at Vung Tau Orphanage. photo shows Mk3 either 170 128 or 178, The truck has been re-cabbed, This is the first photo I have seen of a re-cabbed Mk3 in Vietnam.
-
I'd say the tac is 5 Coy RAASC.
I imagine a re-cab in country would be a big job or BLR.
- But the more I read, the easier it is to believe anything could happen.
-
this one shows variety is the thing - dif bonnet spare tyre brackets, dif ARN plate locations, and 112-051 appears to have a orig b/w grille badge. 2AOD vehicle park vung tau
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2465/3645829202_c49ec38385_o.jpg)
Why only one with a bridge plate.
-
I'd say the tac is 5 Coy RAASC.
I imagine a re-cab in country would be a big job or BLR.
- But the more I read, the easier it is to believe anything could happen.
That Tac sign is Ordnance.
RAASC was Blue and Yellow Diagonally divided whereas the later RACT (1972) took the same colours as Ordnance (upright bars) but laid them diagonally on their sides. There was a bit of bleed over in the change over as RAASC initially incorporated Supply and Transport, but when the change over came about Ordnance acquired the Supply side, whilst the Transport side absorbed some elements of Engineers transport.
Regards
Glen
-
Christmas 69 at Vung Tau Orphanage. photo shows Mk3 either 170 128 or 178, The truck has been re-cabbed, This is the first photo I have seen of a re-cabbed Mk3 in Vietnam.
It may not be a re-cab!
When you look at the rear corner ust behind the cambell clearance lamp, I can't see a gutter, so it may have just been a new front. The front bolting off the cab at the "A" pillar, a much smaller task.
Diana
-
If your eyes are better than mine are, look at the windscreen. That should be the give away.The Mk3 windshield had 3x square corners and one round whereas the later modified cab windshields had 4 round corners.
Regards
Glen
-
Christmas 69 at Vung Tau Orphanage. photo shows Mk3 either 170 128 or 178, The truck has been re-cabbed, This is the first photo I have seen of a re-cabbed Mk3 in Vietnam.
After fiddling around with magnification sizes, I think the ARN is 178-172, and the drivers side front window has a round top corner, closest to the door.
-
When the nose/front changes so do the screens because the entire front comes away, leaving the two "A" pillars, the two doors the roof, floor and the rear wall. To the front there is just a big empty space.
As I understand it you remove the front to take the engine out and the wiring harness disconnects with a couple of multi pin amphenol connectors.
It is why you sometimes see Mk3 fronts with a gutter at the rear and Mk4/F1 fronts with gutterless rear walls, the original Mk3 gutter finishing at the rear of the door.
Diana
BTW: You can just make out the bolts running across the top of the screens and the bolts coming down the "A" pillar.
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Auntikinus/Army%20Trucks/PICT2056.jpg)
The lack of gutter at the rear
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Auntikinus/Army%20Trucks/PICT2057.jpg)
AMk4 cab with the gutter continuing around the rear.
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Auntikinus/Army%20Trucks/PICT2089.jpg)
-
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at115220AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at115304AM.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Screenshot2013-03-14at115314AM.png)
That's my dad, Gordon Boyd, in those three.
D Coy 1RAR in Vietnam in 1965
Yay!
-
The last three images in the first post, the digger in the image is Korg's Dad, nice clear images of his Dad anyway cheers Dennis :)
Yep!
Well remembered, mate.
-
Re Mk3 Vung Tau orphanage, If it is 178 128 it would have to be a Mk4, I think it is 170 128 or 178I, 170128 was recorded as being in vietnam, as to a full re-cab or partial hard to tell from that photo, it does have rectangular mirrors most early mk3's had round ones, all 6x6's in vietnam had rectangular mirrors as far as I am aware, the other give away to identify a full re-cab is the mesh cover over rear glass the Mk3 is a full cover and with full re-cab it is split.
-
I didn't think any Mk4 went to Vietnam? My understanding was that they were Mk3 4X4 replaced with F1 and F2 6X6.
That is what is recorded in Mike Cecil's Mud and Dust book.
-
I was going to say, what date is the earliest Mk.4 ?? I thought they were all post war production.
Oops, just checked my own research, 1968 is the first batch, so it is conceivable that some went.
-
Might be a few new ones here.
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at93027PM_zps5c4694f1.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at93019PM_zpsc72010bf.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at93008PM_zps0caa4766.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at92958PM_zps04884273.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at92950PM_zps11d28e57.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at92941PM_zpseef80af5.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at92934PM_zps6e6af976.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at92924PM_zps6100e0a8.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at92913PM_zps5361c5d8.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at92858PM_zpse44fe190.png)
-
A few more
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at94101PM_zps88f190cd.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at93711PM_zps203c9afb.png)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at93658PM_zpsc9198470.png)
Any info on this one?
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at94613PM_zps3a19522e.png)
-
Did they wear Auscam in vietnam??
-
A few more
<Image removed>
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/juddyburton/Vietnam%20Land%20Rovers/Screenshot2013-03-20at93711PM_zps203c9afb.png)
<2 images removed>
Unfortinately this one's an SIII and by the look of the front antenna mount, fitted with a 1980's AWA F2 HF set. So not an image taken in SVN.
-
100% correct, I just could not be bothered to remove it from the Bulk upload.
So I am very sorry for putting the impostor in here. But its still a good picture.
-
It is a great photo. I have a high res version somewhere that you can see a good amount of detail in the series 3 underneath.
-
The S2 gunbuggy 111660 belongs to School of Armour at Puckapunyal, (according to the Tac signs - the "9" signifies a school and the next two numbers tell you which one) and even though a lot of people who spent time there reckoned that it felt like South Vietnam it was really in Victoria! Not only that but the uniforms being worn date it to pre Vietnam, boots AB and gaiters, and going by the beautifully squarely stuffed old Brit pattern packs I would hazard a guess and say it was a PR shot from the early 60's.
Those steel helmets were just newly issued around the time of that shot, and as it turned out they were an item very rarely seen on an Aussie's head in South Vietnam. They cut hearing ability down perceivably and also made a lot of noise hitting branches in the bush, as well as offering a very easily distinguishable outline (remember the golden rule - SSSSSM) hence the ragged old giggle hat came into its own. Having said that I must admit that our convoy escort gunbuggy crew usually wore them, or at lest the inners, as protection from the ejected hot shell casings from the M60, usually over the driver and sometimes the passenger as well.
But I must add that once the fibreglass inner had been removed, they made a great receptacle for cooking amassed rat pack packets of soup and you could easily feed a section from one helmet full!
All the other shots of gunbuggies on convoy duty are of either 111578 (87) or 110807 (1 Pl.)
Just as a point of interest I was wondering where you found the first lot of shots as the only place I have publicly shown them was on the old REMLR site! Well most of them were mine anyway, not quite all. They are all of 87 Transport Platoon and they aren't even posted on our own site.
There was quite a conversation re the DBG land rover years ago, as in some were wondering whether it was painted black for some reason. It in actual fact carries RAAF plates.
Ross, in the last shot of that particular bracket, the one of the convoy lined up behind the gunbuggy, the bloke on the MG looks a heck of a lot like "our mate". I am not saying it is definitely him but I am pretty sure it is. I know that he did quite a few trips in that position. When you talk to him next, ask about the convoy when he forgot the M60 ammo!!!!! ::)
Regards
Glen
-
The image with "any info on this one!' I was never there but would say it's 'Luscombe' airfield Sth Vietnam, possibly with the Long Hai hills in the background, I'm sure ZD can confirm that though cheers Dennis
-
Here's anew photo from the AWM website - and look what they've done -an ability to have a full size:
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P02975.009/?image=1&fullscreen=true
Here it is a regular size
(http://static.awm.gov.au/images/collection/items/ACCNUM_SCREEN/P02975.009.JPG)
The detail in the full size is very good. This 9RAR at Nui Dat, Kapyong pad. The trees or plantation lines in the background look familiar.
Between the skids under the Huey... is that some plating/armour?
-
Another, ambulances:
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P04656.998/?image=1&fullscreen=true
You can see the patients in situ, 108-650 and another, likely to be 114-557 from the image. So far I have no info on whether 114-557 was on the VTF.
Feb 1970. 1 Field Hosp.
"Diggers being loaded into ambulances to be transferred to a RAAF Medevac flight to Australia from the Vung Tau Air Base.
"This was the fourth largest ever to leave Vietnam with Australian and New Zealand wounded and sick. A total of 24 litter cases and 12 walking cases were on the flight. Most of the casualties had come from the heavy contacts involving 8th Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment (8RAR) in the Long Hai hills, 10 miles south east of the 1st Australian Task Force Base (1ATF). The enemy suffered 39 killed and an unknown number of wounded in the contacts, while Australian casualties were two 2 killed and 18 wounded. "
On our record we have
"NSW. VTF. SAL. Capstan winch. 'Sand, Surgery, Saigontea' photo p84. 8 Field Ambulance.
Archive Photo, Vietnam x 2
To be reduced for parts at 2BOD in 67 (SVN??). Taken off the books in 72 or 73??
Duplicate chassis number, Likely that 111-973 was broken down to parts for this vehicle
Came back to Australia on HMAS Jeparit in Deptember 1971 (Ref Michael Cecil: Mud and Dust). Bob Bald Photos"
We can add: AWM R553/5/4/40 Jeparit voy ex-Syd 20aug71 - RTA alloc 2BOD Sydney
-
More likely to be 108-111 as it is 1 of the 6 ambulances that went to SVN (and only 6). 112-240, 112-225, 108-111, 108-650, 113-917 and 114-198.
That series of photos shots shots from a few angles that day.
which arn does the notation "AWM R553/5/4/40 Jeparit voy ex-Syd 20aug71 - RTA alloc 2BOD Sydney"belong to?
-
The note is for 108-650.
Their were more than 6 Ambulances. The others just didn't have ARNs :)
In August 1971 the Dept of Supply/Australian Embassy sent over 5 LR Amb to Saigon on the Jeparit via 2AOD. SVN aid (along with qty drums of electric cable and 30 assault craft with outboards). AWM 312/R553/5/4/40
The photo somewhere on dockside or on deck showing the a group of ambulances (looking down on them?) without roof beacons could be them. Or did the beacons come off to get into the holds of the Jeparit? I'm guessing.
-
The numbers I was running from was if I recall, Mud and dust quoted 6 (I have to double check that now that I think about it) and we only have record of 6. Also, speaking with the 1 Field Hospital transport NCO he confirmed that they only had I think 5 and one in storage at the depot.
-
Why can't I find that document at the AWM. their search can be annoying at times.
If you look at the bloodbox page http://remlr.com/ARN/ARNs_bloodboxes.php you will see a lot were noted as being purchased by the department of defence, or Dept of Foreign Affairs and nothing further was ever seen of any of them. I'm not sure how the vehicles sent in aid were accounted for to be honest. To my knowledge though, only 6 australian ones went over, which is somewhat contrary to the view that was held some time back that dozens went. If they did the paperwork hasn't shown up to prove that they did, nor the photographs.
A bit like the mythical 2L engined command recons.
-
I have had some more looking and I'm more convince its 108-111
I'm checking the pics of Gunbuggies for the bigger versions and the ARNs....
-
Bigger versions of a lot of the photos would be fantastic! however they may just be providing more zoom, and not higher quality on the existing ones, and scanning newer ones in at a higher resolution. Every photo tells a thousand words of a story though!
-
114-017
http://static.awm.gov.au/images/collection/items/ACCNUM_SCREEN/P00869.075.JPG
Those little radio sets look good... but, I din't know, probably beaten by a hong kong $30 walky talky now.
113-078
http://static.awm.gov.au/images/collection/items/ACCNUM_SCREEN/P01404.017.JPG
and could their date be wrong on 113-078. There is no wiper mtr on the w'frame. They say its 1966, but suffix C (they were a mixed bag) was when the mtr moved to the tray. So either its a brand new unit... or..
I'm looking at the tray paint wear....and the "interior" mirror has been snapped off. (also, for my build, it still has the cute round side mirrors.
And I see they have left the left and right top corner plates (R330622/3) on the windscreen.
The big versions are good. Talk about trainspotting...
-
Can't get the ARN out of this Series 2, 1RAR.
111-459?
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P01595.034/?image=1&fullscreen=true
FFW, no gardening tool brackets.
And this one..
112-806
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection//P01657.017.JPG/?image=1&fullscreen=true
5RAR, that BWD has a Pig on it...
this one, just for the Chrissy tree ornament on the bonnet spare bracket.
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P01706.022.JPG/?image=1&fullscreen=true
112-981 -its got to be an 8
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P01353.036.JPG/?image=1&fullscreen=true
At a gate post.... "No Vehicles something or other"
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P01353.036.JPG/?image=1&fullscreen=true
113-504
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P02465.003.JPG/?image=1&fullscreen=true
Always wanted to make it a desktop pic:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9Fz1YrR5Lgo/UvR1XC-jSBI/AAAAAAAAFkk/pRg4LUb0O44/w1232-h846-no/113504-nui-dat-6rar-gs-AWMP02465dot003.jpg)
113-854 workshop
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/FOR/66/0732/VN/?image=1&fullscreen=true
No rear ARN plate, Tankies helper
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/BEL/69/0434/VN/?image=1&fullscreen=true
113-823 - what is that on the brushguard?
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/EKN/69/0002/VN/?image=1&fullscreen=true
113-984
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/EKN/69/0064/VN/?image=1&fullscreen=true
172-158 "A JEEP, NUMBER 55/276 (REGISTRATION PLATE NUMBER 172 158) IS PARKED IN THE VIP CAR PARK" says the AWM.
What is that unit tac 55 over 276?
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/FAI/70/0208/VN/?image=1&fullscreen=true
Classic barge photo, VTF RTA 3RAR 6oct71, and that left just 4RAR remaining there. I see that Gun Buggy a bit better, and I see a 109 HT in olive drab.
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/FOD/71/0507/VN/?image=1&fullscreen=true
-
Here is a photo at Saigon HQ compound, 70-71. ARN 172-461 with 410 HQ tacs.
The red rat is there, I had the impression it was only for the earlier 65-66-67 years. The bumper has white across the whole length.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-hy6-9y8Xxcw/UvVw-29_nMI/AAAAAAAAFlE/90wCpGI2Ap8/w1101-h847-no/172461-saigon-hq-awmP08521.006.jpg)
-
113-823 - what is that on the brushguard?
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/EKN/69/0002/VN/?image=1&fullscreen=true
823, 833 or 873 do you think though?
-
When you enlarge it the top looks to be a sharp angle that would be a 7 not 2 or 3 :) and the sign on the brush guard looks to be in Vietnamese ;D
-
113-873 is a workshop, the LR in the pic is not.
MC
-
That helps narrow it down :)
-
There are a whole lot of pictures in this book..With ANZACS in Vietnam A photographic record of 6RAR/NZ
Available here. http://www.blueflyer.com.au/
It's copyright so !!!!