Registry of Ex Military Land Rovers
Vehicle Research => Documents => Topic started by: Carzee on March 14, 2013, 07:08:44 PM
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Hi, here's some snips from docs scanned at the AWM.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-G2SobqoduD0/UUF_-UuuS9I/AAAAAAAACoA/_JPJ7L8e4XI/s912/5RAASC-vietnamese-passenger-maximums-may67.jpg)
and if there's no room,
there's always the bus(Vung Tau bus stop map)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dM5KVmAhm38/UUE_4tgOXMI/AAAAAAAACmE/G6JEPPYKtls/s800/1ALSG-vungers-bus-route-dec-1969.jpg)
there's the lambretta
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-CVVfuWarTwk/UUE_zm3iP5I/AAAAAAAACls/JBIQH_qse-o/s720/2AOD-diary-lambretta-fares-jul69-1.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-icY-TcZtF2s/UUE_z7TemKI/AAAAAAAAClo/-_ERZwtJ8MU/s912/2AOD-diary-lambretta-fares-jul69-2.jpg)
there's the taxi
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-PDz3uNhmHCA/UUE_1jy0CNI/AAAAAAAACl8/fG5wCqduT_Y/s800/2AOD-diary-taxi-fares-jul69.jpg)
there's the sulky (human legs? I dunno)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nbxygwZh4Uw/UUE_0-ABXaI/AAAAAAAACl0/vIam7W1QrSo/s720/2AOD-diary-sulky-fares-jul69.jpg)
and these being from the RAAOC records, there's also a form to fill in for any complaints for Saigon Tea...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SbC4bplwqZc/UUE_xwKQi7I/AAAAAAAAClc/sW6t4WH6Pd8/s720/2AOD-diary-complaint-form.jpg)
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Here's a log regards "8 Ball" 114-325 from 26 Transport Coy 25jan71
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-jepLF3_ZNVg/UUGZib0KtlI/AAAAAAAACos/_mo6y7lYBNo/s1152/26coyRAASC-log-crashed-landy-25jan71.jpg)
(http://www.remlr.com/vietpix/v8ball.jpg)
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(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-jepLF3_ZNVg/UUGZib0KtlI/AAAAAAAACos/_mo6y7lYBNo/s1152/26coyRAASC-log-crashed-landy-25jan71.jpg)
Where the above diggers are ordered to report at 0800 next morning to "SIB", is that Secco's Inhouse Brewery? Special Investigations Branch? Standing Infractions Board? Something to do with the Provos?
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ross, do you have these as PDF's that you could send to webmaster@remlr.com ??
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Try this.
https://www.awm.gov.au/research/guides/vietnam.asp
Regards
Glen
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(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-jepLF3_ZNVg/UUGZib0KtlI/AAAAAAAACos/_mo6y7lYBNo/s1152/26coyRAASC-log-crashed-landy-25jan71.jpg)
Where above the diggers are ordered to report at 0800 next morning to "SIB"... is that Secco's Inhouse Brewery? Special Investigations Branch? Standing Infractions Board? Something to do with the Provos?
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ross, do you have these as PDF's that you could send to webmaster@remlr.com ??
Here's a shaft down the big pdf treasure mine that some research assistants showed me:
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awm95/
Gigabytes of pdf. Months of reading. This current collection makes the ARN B.B.B. look like a pamphlet. Good ol' AWM.
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Here's a curio. Dec 69 at 106 Fd Wshops. This should increase the market prices on ebay for old Lightburn wash machines...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XqkCbLs6pSM/UULbOUG1pzI/AAAAAAAACqE/_mSP484Tl-Y/s1033/tranny-tester-1969.jpg)
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Arty grunts testing Land Rover... well lets just say the lengthy ADE Trials didn't cover this scenario. In hindsight maybe there should have been a FSB Landy issued -using another Workshop tray variant.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-gD4M2VbX3sk/UUMIRBSmuiI/AAAAAAAACrA/oswd1PkTRME/s1071/GS-body-mods-arty-feb-70.jpg)
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I believe that we have photos of that very vehicle in vietnam, and post vietnam. Therein answers that mystery!!
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ross, do you have these as PDF's that you could send to webmaster@remlr.com ??
Here's a shaft down the big pdf treasure mine that some research assistants showed me:
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awm95/
Gigabytes of pdf. Months of reading. This current collection makes the ARN B.B.B. look like a pamphlet. Good ol' AWM.
Seems I have some work to do there!! FOr some time I have been recording seperately vehicles that served in vietnam so that I can easily extract a listing of them from the ARN lists. I might need to establish that page of known veterans soon. Maybe tomorrow if I have time and motivation.
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Vietnam service lists, the holy grail for Series 2/2A restorers... well I have some google notes at this link below.
Any other helpers have any info to contribute??? as Dennis did, send an email or a PM please.
This file is a sorting tool. I'm adding all the known SVN photo evidences as well. I have entered some remlr known vehicles -pure optimism really. Adding more ASAP.
There are 2 yellow "HIT" marks so far which where we have a SVN evidence matching a REMLR known Landy. Or Acco.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AirmtN4GydAxdDBBM2lFVHBONHpWajJNd2tPTThEZmc&usp=sharing
Meanwhile, here's a treasure trove for RAEME interested. At the end of this AWM diary file is a complete Field Workshop establishment list of its vehicles, 106 Field WShop Vung Tau, 1971, done on the return to Ord stores. Right at the end of this file:
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awm95/14/3/awm95-14-3-19.pdf (https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awm95/14/3/awm95-14-3-19.pdf)
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Hi Ross,
A lot of effort you're putting into this (the spread sheet in particular) and its all very much apprecited. a question though - whats going to happen with the information ? Is it going to be incorporated into the REMLR website ?
Have you spoken to Richard to see if the current database can have an additional sort function built in if entries have 'operation' colum added (eg Vietnam) ?
Just throwing a few thoughts out there ....
Cheers,
Pete
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Hi Pete. Just had lovely day, very busy; 3 big loads to the tip. Under the house we found some old 12/1956 marked 40mm ammo box (with varnished rounds??) and what I was told was a army mechanics table with folding legs. Hardwood and weighty. Intersting design, maybe dates to the 50s or 60s as well. Got them home to put to use - seems they are family heirlooms now.
As to the new data, yes the master dbase should be able to handle it and grow with the .pdf refs and photo refs. There are trailer and Acco ARNs and a years work.
I remember someone from RAE Steele at Holsworthy saying they had missed the boat as a big skip went to the tip but that he had got the second load before it left or something. "We" lost a ton of vehicle records he said sadly. At the time I was looking for ARN records and anything to do with Series 2 and 2A in the 60s. That was 20 years back. Now look at the info coming in. Its a big win I think.
So far, in the data notes I have made this week, I think you can notice a definite repetitive pattern of Vietnam vehicles with no REMLR ownership then a batch of REMLR vehicles then another slab of Vietnam vehicles. One of the reasons has got to be the salt water factor mentioned in the other thread. http://remlr.com/forum/index.php?topic=266.0 (http://remlr.com/forum/index.php?topic=266.0)
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Just matched another ARN to docs. Thats 4 hits and we haven't really been forensic yet.
Cookey should be happy after this weekends events at Corowa, but when he sees this, hope it makes his smile even bigger - one of his FFR Land-Rovers, 137333, was in Vietnam.
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So had 112-335 been to SVN?
I noticed the link to an AWM doc.
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No, keep your fingers crossed. I can't see a AWM ref there. 335, 336, 337 are still blanks.
Its there with others just on the list waiting for a hit. It helps me if I'm familiar with some remlr-forum-frequent- flyer-related-ARNs as I go back and forth with entries. So.. sorry the answer is "wait, out."
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As to the new data, yes the master dbase should be able to handle it and grow with the .pdf refs and photo refs. There are trailer and Acco ARNs and a years work.
Thanks Ross. When you say 'master dbase', are you referring to the REMLR database ?
Cheers,
Pete
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Master Dbase sounds like something off Dr Who. Or a doof doof band name. Yeahhhh.
Yes, I am learning to drive the Master Dbase as well at the moment.
Php is not my thing. Spreadsheets are dinosaurs but I like what I know as does everyone. I'm the guy pedalling a 9 speed bike because I know how to adjust and tweak it ...but everyone else has upgraded to 18 speeds.
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Carzee
What is the reason for the AWM reference listed with the ARN's.
My ARN 114 349 has two AWM references next to it but I am buggered if I can find a reference to my vehicle in either document. Also, you have my REMLR number listed against 114 359.
Other than that, I applaud your efforts and look forward to seeing the results of your hard work in the future.
Good Luck Mate.
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Just checked my version of the file. Nothing there. See below. You are the second member getting errors when you look at it. Pretty strange.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--Jxfc4ox3Iw/UUbjK443ypI/AAAAAAAACsA/SmNaC53R5ek/s800/Untitled.jpg)
Just as well we have the master dbase...
.
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Just matched another ARN to docs. Thats 4 hits and we haven't really been forensic yet.
Cookey should be happy after this weekends events at Corowa, but when he sees this, hope it makes his smile even bigger - one of his FFR Land-Rovers, 137-333, was in Vietnam.
When you have a lot of olive drab Landys you'd have to get a hit or two...
And so it is: found 114-313 in SVN as 1ALSG Postal Unit in Oct 1970. Thats his beloved 109 Panel van
Thats 2 for Cookey so far.... :)
.
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His 17 const Mk 3 is also a Vietnam vet, so that makes 3.
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Here's a snip from 1RAR diary of Dec 65. This is their allocation of vehicles. 12 x 88in, 8 x 109in, 4 x Acco.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JPSNy10GaMs/UUb6sWF_TFI/AAAAAAAACsk/Jv89e127gTk/s1317/1RAR-dec65-vehicles-deployed.jpg)
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That latest document looks very American, with its references to:
HHC - (Headquarters and Headquarters Company) - a term only used by the US
Plat Ldr - our equivalent and always expressed this way, is Pl Comd
Commo - Comms
XO - 2IC
S3 - Ops Officer
I would guess that as 1 RAR was under the operational command of 173 Airborne Brigade (US) this document originated with the Yanks.
Interesting that they had 6 x 1/4t trailers.
Jack
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Hi Jack
Could it be that the form, as you suggest, originates with the septics, so our 1/2 ton trailers (No.5) are included as 1/4 Ton, there being no field for 1/2 Ton trailers.
Notice the M-274 listed for HQ and Med, after our recent discussion of the Haflinger.
It also seems that someone cant add up. the colums and totals don't correlate? ? ? ? ?
Diana
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You're probably correct, Diana - the bigger organisation imposes its processes on the smaller.
I think the M274 is a Mule, which implies the Aid Sta (RAP) was allocated a Mule towing a mortar and that's curious.
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Hi Jack
Could it be that the form, as you suggest, originates with the septics, so our 1/2 ton trailers (No.5) are included as 1/4 Ton, there being no field for 1/2 Ton trailers.
Notice the M-274 listed for HQ and Med, after our recent discussion of the Haflinger.
It also seems that someone cant add up. the colums and totals don't correlate? ? ? ? ?
Diana
The bottom line states, "Rifle Coy (x 3) which states that the Bn comprised of 3 Rifle Coys, and each Coy was allotted 1 veh for its CO and one for its Supply (Q store).
Regards
Glen
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Hi Jack
Yes you're correct is the Mechanical Mule, we had this discussion last week when people were discussing if the Haflinger actually went to Vietnam, haffy enthusiasts and Wikipedia believed it did but so far no actual evidence like a photo or a document has come to light. I thought it may have been people confusing the M-274 with the Haflinger.
Diana
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The bottom line states, "Rifle Coy (x 3) which states that the Bn comprised of 3 Rifle Coys, and each Coy was allotted 1 veh for its CO and one for its Supply (Q store).
Regards
Glen
Hi Glen
There is still seems a lot more than 25 vehicles on that page, unless trailers are not counted.
Diana
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Just count the columns marked 1/4 Trk;(88" x 12), 3/4 Trk; (109 x 8 ), 21/2 t Trk); (Mk3 x 4) plus the FLA (1/4 ton field ambo): (88" x1.) =25
Trailers aren't counted.
The M274 Mules are interesting in that should the Bn require to be deployed over a reasonable distance, I read it that the two mules, which I gather from the bottom notation were allocated to Mortar Platoon, had to be towed, and the only two vehicles with that capacity and not previously allocated a trailer were the HQ Comdt's and the Med's 3/4 ton vehicles.
Regards
Glen
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Just count the columns marked 1/4 Trk;(88" x 12), 3/4 Trk; (109 x 8 ), 21/2 t Trk); (Mk3 x 4) plus the FLA (1/4 ton field ambo): (88" x1.) =25
Trailers aren't counted.
The M274 Mules are interesting in that should the Bn require to be deployed over a reasonable distance, I read it that the two mules, which I gather from the bottom notation were allocated to Mortar Platoon, had to be towed, and the only two vehicles with that capacity and not previously allocated a trailer were the HQ Comdt's and the Med's 3/4 ton vehicles.
Regards
Glen
Thank you for that expl. of FLA. Field Light Ambulance. I was scratching my head - a trailer of Field Light Arms? etc
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(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-SCvqPxXyMiY/UU085tvyRJI/AAAAAAAACxI/IPqBSWn4JDc/s555/x-duck-shooting-gallery.jpg)
It could have been a shooting gallery for the VC...
I have just read a stack of Commander Diaries of 5 Coy RAASC, 1969.
I'm trying to understand more about the war in that province. It was two and a half years after the Battle Of Long Tan.
For most of 1969 its day in and day out convoys up and back from Vungers to Nui Dat for 5RAASC. Sometimes Saigon, Baria, etc. But mainly Nui Dat.
To the VC it must have been a case of see you tomorrow, same bat time, same bat channel. For months and months and months.
For those Australian Servicemen equal to the task it must have been a real courage-call to go out for a drive every day. There's no covert tactics, no sneaking around. No cam and concealment. A big convoy raises noise and dust and there's no hiding it. Seems to me that the road going supply convoy is the most vulnerable target in many ways. And the goodies being carried are highly desirable - ammunition, munitions, weapons... The convoy is relatively easy to attack compared to Nui Dat and the typical FSB and I'm left wondering whether its a case of the supply convoy being the canary in the coalmine. And its not like all the VC manpower is otherwise employed - somewhere off flying planes and steaming around the oceans in their Navy. Ground attack, night maneuvers, and mafia-like terror and coercion on the locals was all they did.
The VC definitely seem to have been buttoned down in their tactics and limited to a single shot or harassment, some shoot n skoots, some grenade chuckings, some land mines, and some bridge demolitions. Maybe it was a case that their orders were to simply maintain the stress levels on the convoys. Did they take note of the Cessna overhead and the Huey gunships on call (etc) and conclude there was just too much firepower available to back up the convoys? In what I've read of the proceedings in that area, the VC don't appear to have gone to the next step; they didn't attack in force and properly hold up the supply line to draw out Infantry from Nui Dat as either a diversionary tactic to weaken defences before attacking Nui Dat itself or as a deliberate trap to isolate and ambush the Infantry sent to rescue their fellows in the supply convoy.
Interesting discussion, whatever the truth. And interesting reading.
14 doc snips, in chronological order:
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below: 24feb69
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sJc_OpbSDyA/UU01-9wQENI/AAAAAAAACt0/bw-4LTLQX2E/s1440/1ALSG-vungers-road-close-a-24feb69.jpg)
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below: Red Alert then Amber then Red again. 25feb69
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-4mKDegalJ-c/UU01_V8zWsI/AAAAAAAACt8/yz5J_DlBCaY/s1440/1ALSG-vungers-road-close-b-25feb69.jpg)
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below: 2am attack 23mar69. One rocket hit HQ verandah.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GjUwBteXqzs/UU02QwH4z3I/AAAAAAAACuI/vnQZajpkRLE/s1152/1ALSG-vungers-attack-a-23mar69.jpg)
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below: 23mar69 continued
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Mdqt7x-rWmk/UU02Q1QK-1I/AAAAAAAACuQ/SiE7VLdjQAI/s1152/1ALSG-vungers-attack-b-23mar69.jpg)
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below: Convoy ambush by 12 VC 20apr69
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-od-6vlEQero/UU02RI8z-TI/AAAAAAAACuU/BI__mpts-oE/s1280/1ALSG-vungers-convoy-ambush-20apr69.jpg)
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below: ANZAC Day shots fired at trucks 25apr69
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tlbIZMwqAHU/UU02SV-xN2I/AAAAAAAACuc/9KdjOTS4NFc/s1280/1ALSG-vungers-packet-sniper-25apr69.jpg)
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below: RPG fired at Land-Rover 24jul69
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-m4rW-xhj1po/UU025-QdjeI/AAAAAAAACvI/gBY3Qnu7Z1A/s1280/1ALSG-vungers-convoy-rpg-24jul69.jpg)
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below: Bridge blown 02aug69
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qXiGwoOw0PM/UU022TN8URI/AAAAAAAACus/xPYZyZ0dRRQ/s1440/1ALSG-vungers-bridge-blown-a-02aug69.jpg)
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below: Rebuild bridge 03aug69
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3bRO9Y0fkHk/UU0220I2B8I/AAAAAAAACu0/vMeAyJoz85A/s1440/1ALSG-vungers-bridge-blown-b-03aug69.jpg)
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below: Rebuild bridge 04aug69
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-yIzpv6ZaBt0/UU024KocLEI/AAAAAAAACu8/TMcXP-nyWcI/s1440/1ALSG-vungers-bridge-blown-c-04aug69.jpg)
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below: Another bridge blown 12aug69
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kGafdmWAQ7I/UU026S80odI/AAAAAAAACvM/20_mpZoN8LA/s1440/1ALSG-vungers-roads-blown-12aug69.jpg)
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below: Shot fired 15aug69
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Lw-3IeMC-Nc/UU021zMls2I/AAAAAAAACuk/XAfgb66rC0M/s1349/1ALSG-vungers-9RAR-15aug69.jpg)
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below: US Convoy hit - 'elm' is a enemy land mine? 25sep69
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ruoPZb8DXaw/UU027zFWhAI/AAAAAAAACvc/XYT_IzmgEik/s1280/1ALSG-vungers-route-mined-25sep69.jpg)
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below: Vungers rocketted 16oct69
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WfKm9Ied5Vs/UU026ky19OI/AAAAAAAACvU/pm5v8JzNUkI/s1440/1ALSG-vungers-rocketed-16oct69.jpg)
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Another few SVN in service hits for members.
114009
223137
175206
170629
112428
congrats, my eyes are going blurry...
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Hello Ross,
112-428 belongs to Hilton, or its remains anyway. we knew it was a Vet, but what did you find on it?. A pic would be great.
MC
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Yeah pics would be great, for everyone.
.. but what we're digging thru at the moment are Ordnance Depot records. Its in January 68 at Vung Tau and its going out the door; aka Issued. That means it was in their stock for whatever reason; could be new in country off the ship or it could have been receipted into stock earlier for a service or repair.
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Hi Justin, this is what I've found amongst what the AWM has; there could be more yet.
This is the one with a column listing 112-428 issued 22 January 1968, 2 Advanced Ordnance Depot 1ALSG Vung Tau.
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awm95/13/3/awm95-13-3-1.pdf
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HkfH39R-PN0/UVgV1rDVlJI/AAAAAAAACyY/z215HDIoy6c/s1440/2AOD-jan68.jpg)
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...do you notice the typo/mistake as the listing census is 6028 not 6005M?
Someone with a clipboard walked around the shed jotting down ARNs and census numbers on a form: "Ah, here's another GS..". Perhaps.
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Carzee, have you had a chance to put that information into the database?
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No not yet. I have looked at the dbase workings, and thought how to do it with cut n pastes from the notes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AirmtN4GydAxdDBBM2lFVHBONHpWajJNd2tPTThEZmc&usp=sharing
... but to enter that info as it stands, halfway, and update the master dbase now... well, I'm waiting until the fresh source of info is exhausted. Otherwise I'd be back again later updating the updates and perhaps getting work duplications.
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After spending weeks trawling those Diary annexes the data is quite helpful, i found continuous data on 112 951 up to 28 Feb 71 where it was remarked as 406 which is "Beyond Economic Repair"
Heaps of other ARN data and service history to.
David
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Ross
Go to 17 Const. Sqn. Diaries 4/4/25 etc and ARN's by the bucket. Trawl it all the way (hours of work but good data)
Dave
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No not yet. I have looked at the dbase workings, and thought how to do it with cut n pastes from the notes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AirmtN4GydAxdDBBM2lFVHBONHpWajJNd2tPTThEZmc&usp=sharing
... but to enter that info as it stands, halfway, and update the master dbase now... well, I'm waiting until the fresh source of info is exhausted. Otherwise I'd be back again later updating the updates and perhaps getting work duplications.
I might start working through that list and transcribing it to the master database if I get some time tomorrow., or possibly tonight. Is it ok if I make a notation to say entered in to the master dbase?
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Actually in light of what you have collated, I have added a documents field to the database to include what documents refer to the vehicle.
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Just got home, thats a good idea re the extra doc field.
I need that Fog landy (youtube) video that drifter found, I need some Landy therapy.
Rough shift...
found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZVJGzJ5TT4
thats better
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Your spreadsheet actually makes it pretty easy, i've done all of the 108 vehicles as of now (not the 92 - 94 ones) I downloaded a copy of the excell sheet to make it easier. so you can take the 108's off the master now.
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Very good. I'll empty the 108 refs out.
I found the first ref to Dave's 112951. [Monty Burns voice ] exxxxcellentttt ..
and I also found refs in '66 to the fact the RAE have no further 88in in their holdings due to the extra utility of the 109in.
More Interestesting:
At the end of the same month we have a Message from RAE 17 Const Sqn to RAASC about the 88in vs 109in Land-Rovers...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KbAZXkfSW44/UVvUiI_dS_I/AAAAAAAACy4/sLkQHy4RG1k/s576/RAE-to-RAASC-109in-vs-88in-9nov66.jpg)
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What a fascinating insight into vehicle evaluation. I wonder what the date was?
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The reply message seen above was 15nov66.
Later that month.. 23nov66... 1RAASC Coy convoy lists Lcpl Zulu Delta :)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4t9TATYv84U/UVzqRaQrz2I/AAAAAAAAC0I/MoLQPjFDYdg/s576/RAASC-convoy-23nov66.jpg)
Par Oneri
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Regarding those Tac plates... (17 Const Sqn RAE Nui Dat 21mar68)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MhtKSO2U2OM/UVz0vc7YKrI/AAAAAAAAC0o/2wLMcEErjjM/s1189/17const-nui-dat-orders-21mar68.jpg)
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The reply message seen above was 15nov66.
Later that month.. 23nov66... 1RAASC Coy convoy lists Lcpl Zulu Delta :)
Par Oneri
Does that mean that Glen has been mentioned in dispatches! :o ;D
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:)
yeah, i reckon its worth a shout perhaps.
Coming up on 50 years ago, same as Battle of Long Tan itself.
ps, ring the Bells. The Petrol OC was Capt Bell. The 1RAASC snip shows there's another Bell, a Cpl, in 1RAASC. Must've been a lot more common back then.
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Ok, I have done all 110, and 111 up to 111-450.
I have a couple of queries though.
110804 awm95-10-1-17.pdf apr67 'Gun Jeep', convoy escort duty 6005B listed RAASC convoy commander 15apr67
This is listed as a gunbuggy, but 110-804 is a workshop LWB. Any ideas? was it unclear, or perhaps a typo ??
111209 awm95-13-3-2.pdf, awm95-13-3-1.pdf 8jan68 BER, awm95-13-3-2.pdf 22feb68 BER 6006
This one is noted as 6006, but it is 6005, there is a few inches difference between the 2, but wonder if it was just a mistake of nomenclature, or perhaps a shorty with radio.
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Is this one of the 109's that had later chassis swaps during rebuild? I know that later in the conflict they used 109 GS with m60s on pintle mounts as convoy escorts, perhaps they were still calling them gun Land Rovers. We know that 112 166 had a chassis swap, likely after SVN, perhaps this was the one.
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Ok, I have done all 110, and 111 up to 111-450.
I have a couple of queries though.
110804 awm95-10-1-17.pdf apr67 'Gun Jeep', convoy escort duty 6005B listed RAASC convoy commander 15apr67
This is listed as a gunbuggy, but 110-804 is a workshop LWB. Any ideas? was it unclear, or perhaps a typo ??
In that convoy 110804 is designated as the gun jeep. Thats it - there is no census on that reference for that arn. Could a wshop be a gun jeep? Since its the only ref we have, until we find other refs of that ARN... we''l just note it was a gun jeep or maybe its their typo? The printing is quiet clear, two occurances.
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Ok, I have done all 110, and 111 up to 111-450.
I have a couple of queries though.
111209 awm95-13-3-2.pdf, awm95-13-3-1.pdf 8jan68 BER, awm95-13-3-2.pdf 22feb68 BER 6006
This one is noted as 6006, but it is 6005, there is a few inches difference between the 2, but wonder if it was just a mistake of nomenclature, or perhaps a shorty with radio.
agian, this one is clearly printed, and must be their typo, The arn and the 6006 census are both clear in awm95-13-3-2.pdf
how do we cope with those problems? I think we can only note the problem and leave it for some robot researching in 2413AD...
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Ok, I have done all 110, and 111 up to 111-450.
wow! I was working on those docs up to about 4pm. For instance, there was some additionals this afternoon that included 107, 108. I wiped out the file recs that you said you transferred. When you say, I'll wipe the 110 111 refs.
Anyway, I think I'll leave it alone for a couple of days. Those 17 Constr docs number about 70, I've done 30 so far. My eyes need a break, my ears are ok ...so I'll do a couple days of guitar until my ears need a break LOL.
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110804 is a typo and should read 110807 (1 Platoon's vehicle). Typos such as this are reasonably common in these reports and are quite obvious if you go through the truck numbers as I have done in the past.
An army typist is a bit like an old copper typist of the past, learnt the "Hunt" system of typing using one finger of each hand - hit one key and hunt for the next!
Carbon paper was in use so the keys were hit fairly hard and once you made a mistake there was no "edit" key like there is today.
Regards
Glen
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:) thx Glen, there have been numerous typos noticed.
Actually, its a wonder there's not a lot more considering they worked in that heat. Hot people are usually sleepy people.
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Carzee, with reference to suspected mistakes, all we can do is note it all and hoe that other documents, or first hand experience, clear up the mystery.
ZD, thanks for helping clear up that mystery! I will add both notations later today.
Carzee, working over each other can be a problem, but as long as I say when I am doing which set of numbers (I take a copy of the file each time so I have an original to refer back to). I'll endeavour to post in here and say what I am doing to avoid confusion, but I should get through a few more today if it is a quiet day.
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111-000+ all done from the copy I took yesterday.
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Our numbers as at now Vs Michael Cecil's Mud and Dust
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Thanks for that Previous info Ross. very interesting.
JP
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Thx Justin.
Continuing... here's something only hinted about in many other documents I have read lately.
Its a local road list with the (security level) status codes and also a confirmation that at night the blackout lights were put to use.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yYYa6lAon9E/UWvlq3Le07I/AAAAAAAAC8w/j1jLSkm5XrM/s576/17const-nui-dat-roads-09apr68.jpg)
edit- Here's that alert status on a map I modded for illustrative purposes:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fcg2wN2EmX8/UW0noIyLR5I/AAAAAAAAC_I/ndevIfzkyCw/s521/phuoc-tuy-map-aussie-op-zone.jpg)
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:) seen in photos, now in print.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-UNp5i90PVLA/UWv7jOPl5WI/AAAAAAAAC9I/Znqd6oqj3Qk/s512/17const-lock-landys-order-25may68.jpg)
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Sort of contradicts the whole theory of fitting "battle switches" instead of ignition keys, which were put in place because of the commonality and danger of "lost" keys in an emergency! I am pretty sure that this was a specific "unit thing" only.
Some naughty boys must have been parking their rover outside the pub unattended.
Regards
Glen
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It could be unit specific. I haven't seen this security measure order copied over to any other unit diary of that period.
From reading the diaries there is a shift of style with the OC changeover; I get the impression the 17 Const Sqn OC in that period is um, very thorough and busy. The RAE orders include a list of all Australian and NZ casualties, SOP orders for all sorts of things incl. shirt sleeves, smoking in vehicles, postal, VD, taxation, sport, vehicle inspections, and a reminder that you MUST get your molybond through 8 Pet Pl RAASC not 2AOD using form xyz etc.
Here's another, jul68, regards the Acco fleet.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bZLRB2HhCHc/UWyXrFy2HGI/AAAAAAAAC9g/vCUteQThvSY/s512/17const-acco-orders-jul68.jpg)
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:) seen in photos, now in print.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-UNp5i90PVLA/UWv7jOPl5WI/AAAAAAAAC9I/Znqd6oqj3Qk/s512/17const-lock-landys-order-25may68.jpg)
To use the jagon of the time "noggie locks"! 8)
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Starting 112 vehicles from the list I downloaded originally 2 weeks back.
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vietnam photos, 2AOD Terry Williams, gunbuggy
Where is this photo? I don't know it. 112-528
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2 pics, via Stan Middleton archive/efforts :) emailed too you, to big to attach here.
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:'( :'( Still waiting for a piccy of 112-723 or 112-726 :'( :'(
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Just matched another ARN to docs. Thats 4 hits and we haven't really been forensic yet.
Cookey should be happy after this weekends events at Corowa, but when he sees this, hope it makes his smile even bigger - one of his FFR Land-Rovers, 137333, was in Vietnam.
I think I'm up to 6 or 7 hits now.
Found another for Cookey; his Acco 171164; at 3557 miles it got a service, 17 Constr Sqn RAE. Its in the shed, still in its OD.
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Actually, I take that back.
I went thru the notes and just counted 16 hits altogether!
And there's still a long way to go.
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With the key locks, see AFV RAEME Tech. Instruction No. 15 2 August 1967
Two of my Military vehicles have a loop welded onto Hand throttle control, maybe for paddlock to gear change lever ?
David
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Just matched another ARN to docs. Thats 4 hits and we haven't really been forensic yet.
Cookey should be happy after this weekends events at Corowa, but when he sees this, hope it makes his smile even bigger - one of his FFR Land-Rovers, 137333, was in Vietnam.
I think I'm up to 6 or 7 hits now.
Found another for Cookey; his Acco 171164; at 3557 miles it got a service, 17 Constr Sqn RAE. Its in the shed, still in its OD.
Cookey already knew about the Mk3 it was published in a RAEME service schedule about 18 months ago.
Which of the FFR is the veteran? Hope it's not the one with the fruit platform? :'(
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My 109 Wksp has a short length of chain welded to the hand throttle quadrant, this was obviously put there to stop un-authorised use of said vehicle during it's time, ??? Whether it went O/seas or not who knows, cheers Dennis
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Cookey already knew about the Mk3 it was published in a RAEME service schedule about 18 months ago.
Which of the FFR is the veteran? Hope it's not the one with the fruit platform? :'(
Well, there's a lot more doc refs to it now with more dates/locs.
Re the FFR, its 137333
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Nov 65, a sort of EMEI after some troubles with L/Rs.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-aAtoXfn7TjE/UXXFwei2JgI/AAAAAAAADA0/wSvOXcrnk_k/s720/1ALSC-nov65-lr-steer-emei.jpg)
further, in this jun65-jun66 year there was a message refering/summarising prev messages about 5 unserviceable Land-Rovers waiting weeks on "brake linings" repairs. I get the impression unit operation is pretty restricted while they await parts from Australia.
I spent about 6 hours in the 1ALSC diaries last night.
Unfortunately, the AWM online access/filing work is not absolutely perfect. I'd give the staff a medal for all that tedious work, a great accomplishment. Kudos. And none of us are perfect etc etc.
The first doc ref for 1ALSC is out by 12months approximately. The cover sheet reference is 3-9apr65 but the scanned diary is from almost precisely a year later: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awm95/1/5/awm95-1-5-1.pdf
In the 2nd and 3rd docs we read the HQ recce team arrived by air at Bien Hoa (some scrub adjacent to 173 Bde?) about 26may65. They set up a picquet in a corner and use their hootchies I presume - wire and tents etc arrive by air 8jun65 about 10 days later.
Then on 10jun65 the team get up at 0600 and parade in the morning in Saigon with the incoming 1RAR troops. The team return by 1100 and at 1900 the unit vehicles begin arriving carrying some stores: "No advice recd on composition of convoy or movt timings".
Land-Rovers, maint vehicles, trucks, etc. The vehicles continue ariving into the next day apparently, makes 10jun65 a long day..
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1ALSC contd.
The first o/n vehicles secured check sheet is dated 23sep65. [[This is obviously the day they set up their Gestetner machine which print softly/fuzzy in that magenta colour. (I remember the fumes and wet paper from my school days).]]
L/R
111897
111909
112031
111887
111888
113674
112788
111364
111383
111355
I/H
116689
116693
116695
The 1ALSC guards' SNCO filled in the veh chk sheet most every night. Other unit vehs in the compound are noted and missing vehs are queried and referrred to Orderly room.
Makes me wish other units had keep up the practise.
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Carzee,
If you spot an obvious problem with the War Diary scans (or anything else, for that matter) like the one with the file mismatched dates just send a quick email to the Research Centre staff and they will check it and eventually fix it (the check & fix is easy: it takes longer for the replacement file to be uploaded as it waits in a group for a 'general upgrade/refresh' of the site). I've spotted several over the years, and all get dealt with via the REFTRACKER system if you let them know.
Mike C
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111-000+ all done from the copy I took yesterday.
Richard, have done some more; I have put all this week's entries in a separate column closest to the ARN column. This includes 110, 111 etc
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Further to the L/R spares problem in 65, in late 66 there is a major repairs delay and reading between the lines... things get a bit heated.
18 Accos and 57 L/Rs are unserviceable plus there are numerous pumps and plant U/S.
Here are a chronological series of messages.
From AFV to RAEME 101 Fd Wksp via 2Comp Ord.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-rji_-iBN4Ws/UXaFSU2gTBI/AAAAAAAADBM/_QEgq7ripQk/s838/blr-backload-vs-cannibalisation-oct-66-a.jpg)
From RAEME 101 Fd Wksp to AFV
The part in darker yellow I have done to show that in the next message to Melb they say the same thing to Melb..
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Sn5ebVffOos/UXaFTi-M1PI/AAAAAAAADBU/8Z17V56vg5Y/s828/blr-backload-vs-cannibalisation-oct-66-b.jpg)
From RAEME 101 Fd Wksp to Melb
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-sUInMu0h5Xs/UXaFUmvLGlI/AAAAAAAADBc/ZsrWB1GZfgg/s720/blr-backload-vs-cannibalisation-oct-66-c.jpg)
contd
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-oZs_Viq7uoQ/UXaFVrofjfI/AAAAAAAADBw/NB7tnnmy4iY/s800/blr-backload-vs-cannibalisation-oct-66-d.jpg)
contd
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-sFz_c6nrb08/UXaFVhgdlvI/AAAAAAAADBo/PJH-QPJAb50/s833/blr-backload-vs-cannibalisation-oct-66-e.jpg)
The reply: in summary, cannabalise to the max. "all out effort"..
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ymjKH34t9yc/UXaFWEydIfI/AAAAAAAADB0/kTdNu0ZwMeo/s1115/blr-backload-vs-cannibalisation-oct-66-f.jpg)
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One of our tipper drivers (late) John Bell, found himself in an awkward situation when his International tipper broke down and no parts were available for repair.
The problem that arose in a situation such as this for the driver was that if your vehicle was unavailable for work then the crew were, and the work that they were available for was usually manual tasking, CSM's duties, mess duties, working in the LAD greasing bearings or some similar menial messy task, cleaning ablutions etc, all in all not the most desirable way to fill in one's time.
So after waiting at least one week for the elusive parts to miraculously turn up through the system, Dinger (All Bells were called Dinger) took things into his own hands and wrote to his Dad back in Mount Gambier (Dad happened to be employed in the IH dealership) and lo and behold the required spare part turned up in a couple of days and Dinger was back on the road again!
The spare part through the Army system was about another two months before arriving!
Regards
Glen
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:) love that story.
There are mentions of slow mail and damaged mail in other diaries. As I remember the nice persons manning the wharves were being grumpy politically so perhaps it was not all down to Moorebank or IH, Land-Rover, etc.
edit.
back after a quick google:
http://www.hq1atf.org/postie.htm (http://www.hq1atf.org/postie.htm)
There was a manning dispute and demarkations and everything going wrong for the Jeparit thru the second half of '66 -those months leading up to the above 101 Fd Wksp messages.
"Later, at the beginning of December 1966, 40mm cannons were loaded on the Jeparit. Following protests by the SUA and representations by the ACTU, the cannons were removed and the ship left for Vietnam on December 3 1966."
http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/interventions/workers.htm (http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/interventions/workers.htm)
The AWM has this very good fact-filled record regarding the Jeparit story:
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P03051.002 (http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P03051.002)
"MV Jeparit was originally an Australian National Line vessel which completed five voyages to South Vietnam between June 1966 and February 1967. The ship had an all civilian crew and sailed as a merchant vessel on charter to the then Department of Shipping and Transport (DST), carrying supplies for the Australian forces engaged in the Vietnam War. After the fifth voyage some seamen refused to man the vessel. To overcome this difficulty, crew members who were prepared to continue to serve on the Jeparit were supplemented by a Royal Australian Navy detachment. Following Jeparit's twenty-sixth round voyage to Vietnam (her twenty-first with the Royal Australian Navy detachment embarked), further industrial trouble developed and it was decided to commission Jeparit as an HMA Ship. Accordingly, the vessel was commissioned as HMAS Jeparit on 11 December 1969. Jeparit made a further seventeen voyages under the White Ensign, although still with a mixed RAN and Merchant Navy crew. Jeparit's last round voyage to Vietnam ended when she returned to Sydney on 11 March 1972."
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Further to the L/R spares problem in 65, in late 66 there is a major repairs delay and reading between the lines... things get a bit heated.
18 Accos and 57 L/Rs are unserviceable plus there are numerous pumps and plant U/S.
Here are a chronological series of messages.
<snip>
Wouldn't the "Truck 2 1/2 ton, dump" have been teaspoon tippers not ACCO. But in 66 there may have also been Mk3 cargo in the 18 trucks.
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It actually says "TRUCK 2 1/2 TON INCL DUMP"
(interestingly their typewriter or telegram machine thingy has a 1/2 key).
i
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It actually says "TRUCK 2 1/2 TON INCL DUMP"
(interestingly their typewriter or telegram machine thingy has a 1/2 key).
i
It does but someone making a post about the docs called them Accos! (which neither the Mk3 or teaspoon are) ;)
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Maybe I need a re-education camp.
I call them Acco.
So do more than a few other lost souls. eg.
http://www.mheaust.com.au/Aust/Walkaround/ACCO/Acco1.htm
http://redtailfox.deviantart.com/art/ACCO-Troop-Truck-4x4-208888412
http://redtailfox.deviantart.com/art/ACCO-wrecker-6x6-208887607
Did you make this comment in 2011? http://www.flickr.com/photos/aussiefordadverts/5599668149/
Today the ABC ANZAC march commentator called the 110 Army Land-Rovers in Sydney "Jeeps". So I sympathise and fully understand how you feel about "ACCO" but there's just not enough time to worry about the small stuff.
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Maybe I need a re-education camp.
I call them Acco.
So do more than a few other lost souls. eg.
This ridiculous dispute has been going on since God created the earth :(. Use what ever terminology you want Carzee ;). We all know what an ACCO 4x4 or 6x6, Jeep, Blitz, Landy, etc etc are :).
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Maybe I need a re-education camp.
I call them Acco.
So do more than a few other lost souls. eg.
This ridiculous dispute has been going on since God created the earth :(. Use what ever terminology you want Carzee ;). We all know what an ACCO 4x4 or 6x6, Jeep, Blitz, Landy, etc etc are :).
Next time I come around I'll give you a ride in my Range Rover SIIa FFR jeep, neither the International MK3 nor the International AB 160 have ever been International ACCO, otherwise we can all start calling our GS cargo LRPVs
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Actually Stuart, Diana has a point.
If we continue to use the wrong terminology for a vehicle, then it will continue to be cllled the wrong thing by newcommers, new generations etc.
On REMLR I have always tried to be as acurate as possible as many people look at REMLR like an online reference book, expecially the ARN database. As such, if I didn't have definitive proof such as paperwork of some kind, or a whotograph showing indisputeably the information, then I put it in, if there was some doubt, it was either filed for later collaboration, or included with a note that there was doubt in some form or another. As such in recent years I have been far more careful about referencing the source of photos an information in a similar fashion that the author of a book would have to do. Not quite to the same level, but I am continuing to improve. Many thanks for that go to Mike Cecil for pointing out my lack of referencing, which in any research field is unprofessional at best, or negligent at worst.
So if we keep calling them ACCO's, that misnomer will continue to pervail. Hence why I try and refer to them by their proper titles.
Census codes are another example, few census codes refer to just one vehicle, they refer to a vehicle type, for example, 6028, the 3/4 Ton GS, refers to Landcruisers, as much as it does series 2, 2a and 3 land rovers.
In the case of the line that started this debate, "TRUCK 2 1/2 TON INCL DUMP" I would have thought that meant that it was 2 1/2 Ton Trucks INCLUDING Dump, so it would refer equaly to the AB-160 as it would the Mk.3.
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Thanks Richard
Perhaps I pressed my point too hard without being precise about my actual problem.
Yes while I get annoyed by the Mk3 being called the civvi term AACO and the MK4 F1/F2/F5 being called their similar civvy ACCO what I was trying to suggest that the Truck, Dump, 2-1/2 Ton GS 4x4 W/Winch AB-160 were never included in the nickname Acco.
(http://remlr.com/photos/pics12/14.jpg)
Glad you clarified the issue for us.
Diana
BTW: I just noticed a gunbuggy under repair at the end of the row. Have we ever identified which one?
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Notice the Tac signs, -519 - 87 Tpt Pl. Now guess which one it was. Hint......we only had ONE.
1 Platoon had the other one!
Regards
Glen
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I really must remember to record which unit had which gunbuggy on their regords. Glenn, can you give me a precise phrase as to which GB was with which unit for the database please? ;)
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In 1966-67 111 578 was on 87 Tpt Pl's books.......519 Tac sign
110 807 was on 1 Tpt Pl's books.........31 Tac Sign in later days.
Both of these units RTA'd to Australia in 1967 so the vehicles would more than likely have passed on to 85 and 2 Platoons respectively.
Somewhere out there, for 111 578, (the one I class as "ours"), there are probably photographs in someone's collection showing the same vehicle when it would have originally worn either 55 (1 RAR) numbers, or even 60 (6 RAR), then 519 RAASC when it was signed over to us, then eventually the 5 Coy turtle, depending on the year the shot was taken. I only lay claim when I know where the photograph originated from.
My gunbuggy (Onslow)shows up wearing 60 Tac signs (6 RAR) at the horseshoe in one photograph and then shows up later in Nui Dat wearing 63 (9RAR) signs in another shot so lining the buggies up with a particular unit will be a difficult task as they would have changed "owners" on each Battalion rotation. (Three Bns in country at once x 4 RCLs each = 12 buggies, plus RAASC x 2 = 14, plus those that were sent over for replacements when older ones were BER'ed. They were a pretty limited animal (21 in total over 7 odd years according to M & D) and each wore a lot of different colours over their times in country.)
Regards
Glen
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Ha! The earlier 'altercation' over nomenclature reminds me of several instances. I was taken to task for calling the 6x6 GS Inter an 'F1' by a book reviewer of M&D, rather than a 'Mk.5'. Hmmm.... so much for the quality of THAT review!
Or the day that I was in a meeting about the new South Vietnam Gallery and an historian kept on referring to having the 'back door open on the M113' in the display. Besides the fact it is an M113A1, I queried just how much the public would see if only the 'back door' was open, given that the view of the interior would be so restricted through such a narrow swing door. She (an expert on the war in South Vietnam) looked puzzled: she meant that she wanted the rear ramp lowered into the open position. The gallery designers then scratched out 'back door open' and inserted 'ramp down' on their documents. Makes a big difference to the footprint on the gallery floor, so using the correct nomenclature/description becomes imperative in such situations.
Nomenclature is a funny thing: I try and use the correct or abbreviated form wherever possible, but it is sometimes difficult when the full nomenclature is so long winded, like 'Tank, Combat, Full Tracked, Medium Gun, Centurion Mk.5/1, fitted with Wireless Sets C42 & B47'. Writing that several times in an article is not good writing, so we all resort to the abbreviated forms for clarity.
It's made no easier when Army use terms like 'wireless' and 'radio' or 'antenna' and 'aerial' almost interchangeably during the 1960s/70s!
Which reminds me: on the REMLR page under the M113 (sic) listing is a list of 'M115A1's' - what are they?
Mike C
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Oh, I wonder how I did that!!! I'll rectify as soon as I can (Hopefully later this morning)
I could see somebody getting very upset when the arrive to the newly setup display to find the back door open on a Bucket when they wanted the whole ramp down, but no space being left to fit the ramp down. Actually I hope to have my first visit to the AWM for about 2 decades in Juy, really looking forward to it, a lot has changed.
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Found the old payrate tables, from June 1970 in the 17 Construction Sqn Orders.
There are so many groups.
The lowest group-rate for rank of Private is $5.24 per day whereas the highest-group rate for rank of Private is $9.73 per day (highest = SASR?)
(http://www.camerajuice.com/112333/1ATF-payrates-jun70.jpg)
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Found the old payrate tables, from June 1970 in the 17 Construction Sqn Orders.
There are so many groups.
The lowest group-rate for rank of Private is $5.24 per day whereas the highest-group rate for rank of Private is $9.73 per day (highest = SASR?)
Highest grouping was probably someone like a Sig/cipher, or perhaps an intelligence translator or the likes of such.
The groupings went up as did the qualifications, some Corps by their own technical requirements, had higher groupings than others.
Don't forget that back in those days, well before Fringe Benefit taxes killed off all the perks, Bed and Keep was all found, clothing and medical dental requirements all found, and for the marriedies, housing was also found (minimum housing rent). I used to "hitch hike" by RAAF Hercules courier flights all round Australia on leave as well.
Whilst in Vietnam we were also on "tropical" zone allowance tax relief, all food, smokes, drinks, cameras etc were purchased through either US PX (Post Exchange) or our Canteen Service (ASCO) and was duty free, plus we drew "Danger allowance".
The pay was simply to be squandered on ones' self.
Not many civvy jobs came anywhere near that at the time.
I only drew half my pay each fortnight, the other half I had allotted straight to the bank, sort of compulsory savings.
When I came home I bought a brand new Falcon car and even had some left over. Today's soldiers serving O/S come back with roughly the same value proportionally.
Gp1 was basically a raw recruit doing Kapooka, and after those initial couple of months things changed drastically once Corps and specialist training had been completed.
Regards
Glen
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Back in 70 I was at school. The head teach had a BRG Cooper S and a pie was 40c, sausage roll 20c. Then there was some inflation etc.
I mentioned SASR because when they came around re cruiting the starting salary for a Private was $75000 which was a tad more than some reg officers.
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Here is a snip from 17Constr Sqn orders July 1970 - either the $5 a day is not enough or the phones are too expensive:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pU5EYWho_sY/UYtTXrFv7SI/AAAAAAAADPI/oCeOp9shm2M/s785/17constsqn-new-phone-home-jul70.jpg)
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With all allowances they were probably on about $13/$14 per day so a days wage to phone home whats a days wage today?
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..just realised those pay tables are per day not per hour as I presumed...
:-\
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Yes but the pubs closed at 6 oclock remember and out of hours and sundays you had to be a bonafide traveller ;D
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re phones, when it came through in late November 70 it was controlled on a per day and per unit sort of thing: eg, if you were RAAOC your unit was rostered on mondays betwenn 1300 and 1400 and thursdays between 1500 and 1630 etc. And it was USD $12 per 3 mins.
Here's a good piece showing just how many vehicles were under the wing of 2 Comp Ord Depot in Nov 67:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mdKo7L_cnjY/UYwUqsLudBI/AAAAAAAADQg/h7Lb7VT-6qg/s800/2CompOrd-nov-67-veh-state.jpg)
"Ecconomyic" .. looks like the spellchecker function on the typewriter was not handling the tropical conditions.
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Here's another order regards washing (refering earlier posts about vehicle washing after shipping from Australia and before shipping RTA...)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5pNHcSLlsfs/UY7ZfjFrs-I/AAAAAAAADRc/swnei5eg-ew/s767/17const-wash-orders-aug70.jpg)
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Here's an interesting item from the beginning of 1971. After 6 years in theatre..
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-TRrmgoGGE1E/UY7ZerhWnDI/AAAAAAAADRY/UndSszcMV-c/s787/17const-smoke-grenades-jan-71.jpg)
Use in convoy ambush scenario... I just can't imagine it being so useful.
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Here's a laugh.
I think someone got bored with typing all those orders (can be hard to read too) and in Jan '71 orders for 17 Construction we have this to break the monotony.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lG3LzvLffzo/UY7ZdcDEm_I/AAAAAAAADRA/NJ0d7evck2Y/s892/17const-c4-funny-jan-71.jpg)
Some dry RAE humour surely. Right?
I remember the old cartoon, "Don't laugh this is serious".
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Here's another order regards washing (refering earlier posts about vehicle washing after shipping from Australia and before shipping RTA...)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5pNHcSLlsfs/UY7ZfjFrs-I/AAAAAAAADRc/swnei5eg-ew/s767/17const-wash-orders-aug70.jpg)
Like this... :)
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Smoke grenades were carried in most vehicles and were designed for use should anyone be silly enough to get caught in an ambush and request air support, and I say "silly enough" in that the average soldier could possibly throw the grenade about 30 feet or so and that smoke was then to become the target for an aircraft mounted attack. Would you want to be within 30 feet of a rocket fired from an aircraft flying over at a couple of hundred miles an hour by some 20year old hot shot jet jockey?
Each driver drew two smoke grenades of a particular colour from the Q Store prior to setting off and these were supposed to be handed back if not expended and were carried on the floor of the truck on the passengers side. They were shaped like a tin can, about the size of a baked bean can and rolled around all the time. Some trucks had about ten of these items rolling around the floor, all different colours, simply because they weren't always returned.
If you go back through the 1 Coy Cmdrs Diaries you will note on Convoy Orders a couple of extra Callsigns issued, one for "Possum" and also one for "FAC".
Possum was a 161 Recce flight aerial observation platform, usually a Cessna f/w or a Sioux chopper, and this aircraft overflew the convoys en route to and from where ever. They were flown by a member of 161 Recce Flt and often had, as an observer, a spare NCO from one of the Transport Platoons.
FAC ws the Forward Air Controllers of the US who spotted for, and led in whatever type of aerial assistance that was available at the time to assist ground troops where necessary.
In the event of an ambush, provided the convoy or packet was halted, firstly the Packet Commdr. would alert the rest of the convoy and Coy HQ of the problem, then call up Possum to investigate the problem from the air. A coloured smoke grenade would be thrown by the driver closest to the contact towards the source of contact to mark that position. Possum would call the colour of the smoke sighted and this would be confirmed by the group on the ground (to ensure that the opposition was not playing funny games).
Possum would then call up FAC who would in turn do a recce in a "bird dog" Cessna. If necessary then the FAC would himself identify the target and mark it with his own smoke and call in air support to hit that particular smoke source. This particular type of air support was comforting to know that it existed but not the type one wished to ever witness close up.
So storing smoke grenades became a problem, as they rolled around loose in all vehicles, in that there was really no where to store them. They had become a standard day by day weapon had not been previously envisaged, hence the modifications in field.
Regards
Glen
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Smoke grenades were carried in most vehicles and were designed for use should anyone be silly enough to get caught in an ambush and request air support, and I say "silly enough" in that the average soldier could possibly throw the grenade about 30 feet or so and that smoke was then to become the target for an aircraft mounted attack. Would you want to be within 30 feet of a rocket fired from an aircraft flying over at a couple of hundred miles an hour by some 20year old hot shot jet jockey?
Each driver drew two smoke grenades of a particular colour from the Q Store prior to setting off and these were supposed to be handed back if not expended and were carried on the floor of the truck on the passengers side. They were shaped like a tin can, about the size of a baked bean can and rolled around all the time. Some trucks had about ten of these items rolling around the floor, all different colours, simply because they weren't always returned.
If you go back through the 1 Coy Cmdrs Diaries you will note on Convoy Orders a couple of extra Callsigns issued, one for "Possum" and also one for "FAC".
Possum was a 161 Recce flight aerial observation platform, usually a Cessna f/w or a Sioux chopper, and this aircraft overflew the convoys en route to and from where ever. They were flown by a member of 161 Recce Flt and often had, as an observer, a spare NCO from one of the Transport Platoons.
FAC ws the Forward Air Controllers of the US who spotted for, and led in whatever type of aerial assistance that was available at the time to assist ground troops where necessary.
In the event of an ambush, provided the convoy or packet was halted, firstly the Packet Commdr. would alert the rest of the convoy and Coy HQ of the problem, then call up Possum to investigate the problem from the air. A coloured smoke grenade would be thrown by the driver closest to the contact towards the source of contact to mark that position. Possum would call the colour of the smoke sighted and this would be confirmed by the group on the ground (to ensure that the opposition was not playing funny games).
Possum would then call up FAC who would in turn do a recce in a "bird dog" Cessna. If necessary then the FAC would himself identify the target and mark it with his own smoke and call in air support to hit that particular smoke source. This particular type of air support was comforting to know that it existed but not the type one wished to ever witness close up.
So storing smoke grenades became a problem, as they rolled around loose in all vehicles, in that there was really no where to store them. They had become a standard day by day weapon had not been previously envisaged, hence the modifications in field.
Regards
Glen
Thx Glen.
In the unit diaries for RAASC you often see the diagram for the radio callsigns and they include Possum etc...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4t9TATYv84U/UVzqRaQrz2I/AAAAAAAAC0I/MoLQPjFDYdg/s576/RAASC-convoy-23nov66.jpg)
..but they usually have an SOP that in the event of ambush to keep moving or Do Not Stop.
Hmmm, there's that LCpl Hutley listed again as well.. so we're getting this info firsthand here. The web really is amazing.
Also, when it rained in SVN did the convoys to 1ATF etc proceed or were they generally postponed? I'm aware that "heavy rain" in SVN could last a fortnight. I'm leading to this - do the smoke grenades perform their main function, ie, position marking for aircraft (given that with low cloud they have a problem)? If there was a weather postponement of 1ATF road freight the SOP would be to up the workload for Wallaby Airlines? Right?
Here's an example of Wallaby workloads when the road to 1ATF was u/s:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3bRO9Y0fkHk/UU0220I2B8I/AAAAAAAACu0/vMeAyJoz85A/s1024/1ALSG-vungers-bridge-blown-b-03aug69.jpg)
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Here's another order regards washing (refering earlier posts about vehicle washing after shipping from Australia and before shipping RTA...)
Like this... :)
Where is that dam in your photos and in the earlier photos with the boy on the bonnet?
It could be a river but the edges look man-made to me. Am I wrong again?
Is it the waterpoint marked "6" on the Bus Stop mudmap?
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dM5KVmAhm38/UUE_4tgOXMI/AAAAAAAACmE/G6JEPPYKtls/s720/1ALSG-vungers-bus-route-dec-1969.jpg)
I have lived in a coastal location in NSW which is similar terrain to what I see of Vung Tau via the photos, and I'm thinking one possible reason the Vung Tau 1ALSG site was selected in late April '65 because RAE knew their stuff regards the dunes and high water table? (I'm realise I'm assuming the dam or whatever is fresh water and the water was for general washing/showers etc).
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The water point marked "6" on the map you show is the drinking water plant at Vung Tau, and not the dam in the previous photos that you mention.
I have pinched another map from a later date of the Nui Dat area and just in front of the RAASC /RAEME/ARMOUR (left hand side) area you will note a man made dam. This was not in existence in my time nor was the bypass road shown towards the top of shot. In my days Armour was located about where the road joins on where it is named "Pearly Gates", RAEME was over towards Luscombe (almost centre of shot) and the RAASC perimeter was between Engineers and the Bn, where the dam is now.
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/glenpats/4016222132_eb15a5dfd1_z_zps1435428a.jpg)
I am assuming that this is the area shown. If you look at the second photograph you will notice a small hill (Nui Dat) in the background. That small hill (Nui Dat itself) was originally occupied on the western side by a Company of 5 RAR and later taken over by SAS.
As for the selection of the spot to place Vung Tau, that area was originally a swamp and used by the locals as a rubbish dump. In early 1966, a dozer operator, a tipper and a couple of Grunts were sent down from Bien Hoa to level the area that was later to become "the Bowl". The Grunts job was to pick of the locals who took pot shots at the dozer driver while he was working filling in the swamp. The area was covered by a couple of feet of sand and lo and behold around about April 1966 the Australian Logistic Force moved in. Not long after that the Monsoons hit. The bowl went under water, well half of it did at least.
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/glenpats/1TheBowlinthewet_zps09bbe5fb.jpg)
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/glenpats/1Bowlinwet_zps0a91ee43.jpg)
This area then became known as "Lake Glendenning" named in honour of our illustrious Company Commander of the same name.
Our Ops Officer then did a deal with the Engineers to dig a channel to drain the water out. (Remember that this land was reclaimed before we got there so at the particular time the swampy nature of the history of the site was an unknown quantity - to us, the inhabitants at least!.) This channel filled up with water rapidly, as the sad knowledge that we were below the water table began to sink in, and was from then on known as "Ferguson's Folly".
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/glenpats/187adminearlydays_zpsa2e586b1.jpg)
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/glenpats/1CoyHQearlydays_zps58b4115a.jpg)
This was about the time that 1 Coy HQ decided to move to the higher side of the bowl and a 'fair swap' was made with 87 Tpt Pl who got the short end of the stick and moved from our high and dry area into the swampy end (once our tippers had filled it in, that is.)
The decisions re the area allocations were all made in Saigon, or perhaps Canberra, so I guess in their eyes all was a great success.
Some Engineer Officer possibly got a gong for his design and planning.
Where IS that sarcasm button?
Regards
Glen
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With reference to post #117 re weather, convoys ran every day regardless of weather conditions.
The climatic conditions in South Vietnam (the Southern bit where we were) is very similar to Cairns only the seasons are reversed.
The only adverse affect the weather had was trying to keep the vehicles on the high crowned red clay roads in Nui Dat camp itself, often one would find the rear wheels slipped into the gutter but as long as you could keep the steer on the road one could still progress albeit sideways. 4 Wheel drive was a must and winches got an almost daily workout through either pulling oneself out of a bog or running the rope around trees to pull the load off the truck. (I tied my winch to a tree on more than one occasion to lift the front of the truck to change a tyre.)
The biggest problem we had was with perishables, as refrigeration was a bit of a luxury and definitely not an option on the road going vehicles at the time, and as a result most perishables were transported by Wallaby airlines or by chopper.
1 Coy Diaries possibly will give a better insight into the setting up of the two camps, especially re some of the suggestions that were put forward by those on the ground in the early days and as to how long they took to implement. 1 Coy noted the need for another Transport Platoon in the first couple of months in country and it wasn't until January 68- 12 months later- that they were in place. Similar stories re refrigeration etc. By the time 5 Coy took over most operational requirements were either "in place" or "on the way".
If you go to around about Jan 67 or so's Diaries, you might note that that L/Cpl got another hook around about then too.
Regards
Glen
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Thx Glen, I am working thru 1RAASC at the moment; so many convoy orders and in every 6th or 7th there is a single "new" ACCO ARN I don't yet have on the list.
I did look up Jan 67 last night and noticed where your hooks doubled :)
Also some stuff (could be filed under "Army Heritage") in RAE Diaries have been snipped in the last day or so
Intro of the ICB badge... Sep '70
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-_m93Bx2PnNA/UZAyKnFBbtI/AAAAAAAADU0/MDgAOKWwUlM/s800/17Constr-ICB-explanation-invitation-sep70.jpg)
Origin/changeover of Infantry weapon drill... Oct '70 8)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pTO_Phyvuak/UZAyKY3Vi0I/AAAAAAAADUw/Ku4HoMw3TG4/s512/17Const-unload-load-action-instant-oct70.jpg)
An interesting sitrep as 8RAR rta regarding the whole Australian mission in SVN and the results in the "Aussie" province... Nov '70
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-j5YHY98GfWE/UY7Zzbc1ykI/AAAAAAAADR8/PndwcWAlZiQ/s640/svn-afv-forces-reduction-17const-nov70.jpg)
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You will find one or two typos in those records as far as numbers go.
If you check out this post it may shorten your search somewhat.http://remlr.com/forum/index.php?topic=145.msg1114#msg1114
Regards
Glen
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Glen I am looking over those wetseason 'bowl' photos...
Here is a colour photo you posted some months back:
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/glenpats/2012-10-26_3-1.jpg)
My question is about that flooded sandbagged area. Is it on the 87Tpt side of the bowl or on the 1Coy side?
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You will find one or two typos in those records as far as numbers go.
If you check out this post it may shorten your search somewhat.http://remlr.com/forum/index.php?topic=145.msg1114#msg1114
Regards
Glen
Yes, thx Glen. I am seeing a similar typo effect on the 17Construction papers. That unit has very good and even records, each vehicle has multiple references. So when i see a ARN with only one reference and it happens to have 5 digits identical to a frequently referenced 17C ARN... its a typo as far as I am concerned.
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My question is about that flooded sandbagged area. Is it on the 87Tpt side of the bowl or on the 1Coy side?
[/quote]
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/glenpats/Bowlcomp_zps2f0e89dc.jpg)
This shot is taken from the 1 Platoon accommodation lines looking down on 1 Coy HQ and 1 Tpt Pl Admin, Tpt and Q stores.
You may note down in the bottom right corner of the shot is Maj Glendennings 1/4 to GS that he commandeered from Saigon, and the only DBG landy around. Dennis M should be very interetsed in this vehicle.
Directly over the projection box (wooden hut - looks like an outhouse) and past the trucks is a small indentation.. that is 1 Coy LAD (RAEME) and to the right of that is 87 Tpt Pl Admin, Tpt Office and Q Store.
In the black and white flooded sandbags picture, that is where 1 Coy HQ was. They then moved over to this side and 87 moved in to the flood area simply because we had the wherewithal to fill it in, or so we were led to believe.
When we first of all moved in to the bowl our offices were at the base of the sand dunes to the left side of this photograph, Ferguson's Folly ran parallel with the edge of the sand dunes and had since been filled back in. Our tent lines are on top of the dunes to the top right.
Regards
Glen
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Would that be this vehicle Glen, 113-243 cheers Dennis :)
http://www.remlr.com/photos/pics4/wrviet3.jpg
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Thx for that Glen. I feel like i have had a flyover the place in the tardis. I was not aware it was the local tip beforehand. Perhaps that this fact helped command make the decision - taking a good spot or prime real estate may have antagonised locals.
Regards the 65-66 era at VT, I remember obtaining a Par Oneri magazine via a certain Mjr. Spruce one day about 10 years back and I set about typing it up for the website (http://www.remlr.com/raasc/raasc_vietnam.html). I found its contents very descriptive and informing compared to anything in the local library at that time. (although even these articles edit out the picturesque descriptions of 'p-phone' urinals that Mjr. Spruce gave me). (this was sometime before your page of photos (http://www.remlr.com/1_Coy_raasc.html) came along):
"1Coy RAASC main body is deployed in the sandhills about one mile from the township and about 300 yards from the sea. During the wet season it is under water and during dry it is under sand. (One warning. If any wife or sweetheart asks an ex 1 Coy RAASC Vietnam veteran to take her to the beach, we do not accept responsibility for the consequences.) The sand during all seasons is intolerable, except that at least everything remains clean, and only requires dusting. All food, water, clothing, vehicles, beds and bodies are perpetually covered with the powder-like sand. One is glad in many ways to leave the ALSG area to go north on the re-supply convoys. Upon leaving the main gate the convoy passes over a causeway type road through a swamp and then eventually past the Vung-Tau Airfield where elements of the US Army and Air Force are located. Then through villages whose smell is reminiscent of O'Riordan St, Sydney.
...
"Baria, the main town in the Phouc Tuy (pronounced 'Fook Twee') Province, is a reasonably clean, neat place. However, as can be understood after almost 30 years of war, signs of disrepair are evident. The main impression here, though, is that the people are friendly and smiling. Remembering the first convoys that weaved through the town when eyes of doubt were cast, it cannot but be thought that -here at least- the war is being won, not only the shooting war against the VC, but just as important, the war to win the hearts and minds of the people."
(I underlined the WHAM reference)
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Would that be this vehicle Glen, 113-243 cheers Dennis :)
http://www.remlr.com/photos/pics4/wrviet3.jpg
That's the one Dennis.
Regards
Glen
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(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/glenpats/1CoyHQearlydays_zps58b4115a.jpg)
In that photo there is a canvas shower hanging up - at about the 7 o'clock position.
At about 3 o'clock is a much larger hanging bag of some sort. It has a proper framework.
? I wonder what it is.
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They are both large water bags. They were made out of canvas, had a spout that came out of side at the base and to have a drink one simply unhooked the top end of the spout, dropped it down lower and filled ones mug. To stop it one simply hooked the end of the spout back up to the top.
Wonderful old inventions, similar to the ones we used to hang on bull bars if you can remember them, but a lot bigger. Worked on latent heat exchange.
Water didn't cost $4 a bottle back in those days.
Regards
Glen
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The drinking water was purified by some means; the pills or the filter?
I love camp trivia like this. In those early years was there a mess tent and cook or only after mid 67?
Also, does the bushrat make an appearance around the sandhills? In all the VT diaries I don't see any mentions of pests except the call to hurry up lotion on backorder (to deal with sand mites I think).
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I have been looking at a c1970 photo of 1ALSG. I think I see a yard with the Scammell prime movers for the Centurians etc (86Tpt?). Near them (near the Hospital landing pad) are some dams (same old high water table problem).
1. On the left side is a what appears to be a cement pad - is that the vehicle wash plant we have been mentioning?
2. And the higher sand hills at about the 2 O-clock posn - is that "the bowl" from a different angle?
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-p62xWL7u0UQ/UZtj81S2kkI/AAAAAAAADZA/Tzmc3Id-77Y/s654/unk-awm-P00657dot015-wash-point.jpg)
Regarding the drainage and high water problem... nowadays the solution is to use it as golf course water traps:
https://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=vung+tau,+vietnam&sll=10.3737,107.0982&sspn=0.006543,0.009795&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=10.373686,107.09816&spn=0.141332,0.112782&z=13&iwloc=addr (https://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=vung+tau,+vietnam&sll=10.3737,107.0982&sspn=0.006543,0.009795&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=10.373686,107.09816&spn=0.141332,0.112782&z=13&iwloc=addr)
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The Bowl is the big flat area where all the trucks are parked.
Regards
Glen
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From july 71:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-RozSKrO3bZY/UaSCldhg8wI/AAAAAAAADZc/o7JDgjSuu2Y/s1293/17const-rear-axles-jul71.jpg)
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:) 17 Construction had a wide variety of vehicles but when the order above is dropped in amongst the Orders... no need to mention "Land Rover", its just 'understood'.
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Wow, is this right?
Provos in Vung Tau using Radar Speed detectors - 1971?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zY1vFT3U_bg/UbPGOPuTuUI/AAAAAAAADeI/WqE2xzy9cdE/s720/provo-radar-vt-mar71.jpg)
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I have been looking at a c1970 photo of 1ALSG. I think I see a yard with the Scammell prime movers for the Centurians etc (86Tpt?). Near them (near the Hospital landing pad) are some dams (same old high water table problem).
1. On the left side is a what appears to be a cement pad - is that the vehicle wash plant we have been mentioning?
2. And the higher sand hills at about the 2 O-clock posn - is that "the bowl" from a different angle?
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-p62xWL7u0UQ/UZtj81S2kkI/AAAAAAAADZA/Tzmc3Id-77Y/s654/unk-awm-P00657dot015-wash-point.jpg)
Regarding the drainage and high water problem... nowadays the solution is to use it as golf course water traps:
https://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=vung+tau,+vietnam&sll=10.3737,107.0982&sspn=0.006543,0.009795&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=10.373686,107.09816&spn=0.141332,0.112782&z=13&iwloc=addr (https://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=vung+tau,+vietnam&sll=10.3737,107.0982&sspn=0.006543,0.009795&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=10.373686,107.09816&spn=0.141332,0.112782&z=13&iwloc=addr)
According to M&D there were only two Leyland/Scammel prime movers in theatre with two 70 Ton floats, most of the other prime movers were the 20 Ton Diamond Reo and eight 25 ton Federals.
You can see them in Noel P's images
Diamond Reo and Freighter trailers on foreground, tail end of tank floats (Scammel) mid ground 12 O'Clock
(http://remlr.com/photos/pics10/Vietnam6.jpg)
Reos in foreground, Federal and tanker trailer in mid ground 12.30 O'Clock
(http://remlr.com/photos/pics10/Vietnam13.jpg)
If a load was more than 25 Ton wouldn't they have used the Scammels with the 30 Ton plant trailers? The RAE had a lot of heavy equipmemt and the Scammels with the Steco trailers were standard heavy haulage for RAE in Australia.
Doug E
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Good pix of the semis. The b/w aerial photo of the yard has a caption stating circa 1970. Mistake?
Some questions arise. In Mud n Dust, p34, a caption of one of the Diamond-Reo semis with Fruehauf trailer states they didn't arrive in SVN until 1971. From Sept 71 heavy items were RTA by ship and by early Feb 72 all the gear (and diggers) were RTA.
Did they already use the same type of civvy semi-trailers in Australia 65/66/67? If so, the arrival of Aussie semis for freight, fuel tanker and heavy armour transport so late in the Aussie Zone could have been because (some guess's);
1. the Aussies didn't bring over the civvy semis earlier -65/66/67- because they simply hired US military heavy haulers (i.e., high ground clearance and a diff on the front axle)?
2. the Zone's routes were not safe for civvy semis until all the big civil works and upgrades on road and bridge tasks were accomplished by the RAE? (civvy semis couldn't cope with monsoon conditions/degradation etc)
3. the RAE engineers only signed off and 'approved' the route safety (regards civvy semis) at a certain point in early '71?
[Reading the 17Construction diaries... they sure did do a lot of roadwork. There are SVN govt letters of commendation for the RAE regards the huge improvement in civil economy in the province due to the infrastructure improvements and repairs of damage done during the earlier war with the french etc. They are probably still in use.]
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Carzee,
Your question may be answered by reading M&D pages 234-235. The Diamond Reo wasn't accepted for Aust military service until 1970. First arrivals into SVN were April 1971. The s/tlr requirements before that were 'covered' by hired US transport, as per policy to hire US transport where practicable and available.
Mike C
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Would the C1970 on the B&W image explain the issue, circa meaning "sometime around 1970" which would include early 1971?
Doug