Registry of Ex Military Land Rovers
REMLR Technical => Mechanical => Topic started by: Carzee on November 08, 2016, 12:08:01 PM
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The other week the rear brakes, shocks n springs were done. This week, just after I have started in on buying the required parts for power steering (which was the next job on the "To Do List"), along comes a slipping clutch.
1990 FFR -the engine is at 150,000km and about 4500hrs.
I have ordered a HD clutch upgrade kit from KLR. Johnny will fit it tomorrow, fingers crossed the KLR package arrives in time. I will get some pics of the parts involved. Wayne T. had a HD clutch upgrade done a while back using this KLR kit. After getting a KLR Turbo fitted, his clutch lasted about 6000km before slipping occurred. Looks like this slipping clutch is my excuse to have a turbo fitted. I was very happy with the clutch feel and pedal pressure after re-sleeving the clutch master and slave cylinders at the end of August.
Looking on the bright side, if there are weaknesses in the drivetrain I'd prefer to find them and fix them before hitting the road next year.
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..... Looks like this slipping clutch is my excuse to have a turbo fitted. ....
..... Looking on the bright side, if there are weaknesses in the drivetrain I'd prefer to find them and fix them before hitting the road next year.
you will not regret having a turbo , and while there's not much likelihood of drivetrain weaknesses, it will be good to have it all "tried and tested" before the big one
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Looking at my logbook, the clutch and spigot bearing was replaced in-service at 120,404km in April 2012.
Photo shows the LT95A box down for inspection and clutch overhaul.
Next photo is inside the flywheel housing. The "bearing sleeve, porous bronze" (R549911 suit RRC 3.5 V8 and Perentie) seen in the center of the photo will be replaced. That cost $7.50
It is to be lubricated, not with grease, but motor oil. As far as I understand, its a service part that has a limited life and it lubricates and takes the wear and tear to preserve the spigot shaft.
Also checked: the teeth on the flywheel and the end of the starter motor are in excellent condition.
The flywheel was skimmed before re-assembly and it appears as new. That cost $88.
Next photo is inside the bellhousing. You can see the clutch shaft, the fork, and the rod that connects to the Slave Cylinder. I looked at the little plastic clip for the end of the rod (R576723). Doesn't look like that little clip would last -I have seen thicker plastic on a disposable lighter- but apparently they do the job. The housing must be sealed and made waterproof on re-assembly and the breather pipe re-fitted.
More photos follow.
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Next photo is the 2012 clutch plate and then photos of the new Exedy clutch (part of the KLR HD clutch kit) made in Japan.
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Next is the old pressure plate and the new upgraded plate supplied by KLR in the HD clutch kit. Cost $770 incl. gst.
You can see the wear on the fingers of the old plate. Thats why it was slipping.
The 2012 job on the clutch was only 30,000km ago at 120,000km.. so did the Army change the pressure plate as well as the clutch? No, it appears they did not: the wear on the fingers of the pressure plate.... well, that looks to be 150,000km wear, not the 30,000km since 2012. This would have to be the original pressure plate from 1990.
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The KLR HD Clutch kit also comes with a new Clutch Release Bearing aka Throwout Bearing.
Over a year ago now, about 13,000km ago, my gearbox was rebuilt and so the throwout certainly looked ok, but its better to install a new one just to be sure.
The photo shows the 13,000km used one and two new ones with the black plastic spacer parts on them. The spacers are removable and they have "RHP England" and "5 | W | 39" stamped in the plastic. The LT85 box does not use the black plastic spacer at all. The Clutch Release Bearing aka throwout bearing is specific to the Isuzu engined Land-Rover County from the 1980's and Perentie.
There are two new ones in the photo because I had one stashed away and brought it along to the workshop not knowing (the KLR HD Clutch kit consists of a new clutch plate, new pressure plate and also a new Clutch Release Bearing aka throw out bearing.
In the Perentie RPS book the Clutch Release Bearing aka Throwout Bearing part is identified as AYG3339, the OEM is NSK/ RHP Bearings, and the part number is "W39=5", to suit Isuzu 4BD1 model Land Rovers. It is not Defender/Disco FTC5200!
Last year, 13,000km ago, when the gearbox was rebuilt at nth canberra LR specialty mechanic ripoffs, I had to pay $209 for this W39=5 part, fully double their cost and more. And they got the wrong throwout (defender) freighted in first off, so that cost a 4 day delay. Other parts on that unfortunate job were just as bad. IMHO the part prices were not the main problem they have there. I later got a genuine LR spare from Peter Haylock's All4x4spares Kotara for a rrp of $110.... hope this helps others!
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Have to correct you there Ross. The LT85 in an Isuzu 110 has the same throwout bearing with the sleeve as an LT95. The V8 version has the small one in the centre (without the stainless sleeve)
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The LT85 box does not use the black plastic spacer at all. The Clutch Release Bearing aka throwout bearing is specific to the Isuzu engined Land-Rover County from the 1980's and Perentie.
quote: Have to correct you there Ross. The LT85 in an Isuzu 110 has the same throwout bearing with the sleeve as an LT95. The V8 version has the small one in the centre (without the stainless sleeve)
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Thanks Bearman.
:)
A big thank you and hat tip to Johnny at Series Workshop - I just drove home. Its a harder pedal and more truck-like obviously, but the best part is getting back the engine power. Goes up hills a lot lot better now as you'd expect. Maybe I'll give the turbo a miss. It was a 9 hour job including extra jobs such as checking the Unis, sorting the breathers and lubricating the creaky/squeeky clutch pedal pivot, etc (not to mention the tutoring).
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Does the 6x6 Perentie use the exact same Clutch Release Bearing, Pilot Bush, and Slave Clutch?
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What was the labour cost?
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Does the 6x6 Perentie use the exact same Clutch Release Bearing, Pilot Bush, and Slave Clutch?
Yes mate, the only different bit is the pressure plate. Even the driven plate is the same as the 4x4.
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Ross just wait until to have to reverse a big trailer into a tight spot, you will wish that clutch to hell just ask me I know LOL cheers Dennis :)
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What was the labour cost?
Hi Trent, have you moved into your shed yet? Trust its all done.
The hourly rate at SWksp is currently 127 + gst.
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Hi shed is two thirds done but hoist is in trying to get house finished now
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just remember they werenot all angels driving the vehicles and they could just be quick fixes i have known them to replace a t clutch at 20000 km and another just after it came out of storage
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A while ago I used one of these plates in my Leyland Terrier,when the original clutch plate disintegrated.I wondered why the Rover plate had a big recess machined into the spline.It seems the crank of the Jappa has a big spigot sticking out.By the way ,I used a second hand plate from the army scrap I used to buy,so net cost was zero,a figure to suit my budget.I still wonder if the reduced spline would cause a wear issue.In my opinion the size of the plate is marginal with a 4cyl /4 liter engine,and I would expect slip if conditions wernt ideal.A motor that size needs a 300mm/12inch plate.The Leyland has a 4l six.Regards John.
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I wondered why the Rover plate had a big recess machined into the spline.It seems the crank of the Jappa has a big spigot sticking out. ... I still wonder if the reduced spline would cause a wear issue.In my opinion the size of the plate is marginal with a 4cyl /4 liter engine,and I would expect slip if conditions wernt ideal.A motor that size needs a 300mm/12inch plate.The Leyland has a 4l six.Regards John.
The matter revolves more around the 4BD1 having a flywheel housing (flywheel shy of bellhousing mating surface) and the LT95 being designed for a more conventional engine (flywheel proud of the bellhousing mounting surface). The spigot adapter necessarily reaches out from the flywheel to reach the gearbox input shaft, and of course the friction plate has to have offset splines to reach the flywheel as well. The splines on the friction plate aren't compromised - i.e. they're designed that way - so I don't think it is a concern in terms of spline wear.
I've heard speculation that the 4x4 Perenties used a low-but-sufficient clamping force pressure plate so as to reduce fatigue on the driver and give a more manageable pedal. Once you up the power it's no longer sufficient; but in my experience the HD (i.e. high clamping pressure) clutches are a silver bullet for slip. It isn't necessary, but there appears to be plenty of room on the flywheel for larger clutches - if someone wants to get creative.
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I've heard speculation that the 4x4 Perenties used a low-but-sufficient clamping force pressure plate so as to reduce fatigue on the driver and give a more manageable pedal.
That's an unusual way to engineer a softer pedal feel. The clutch master cylinder is the same as many trailer hydraulic cylinders, and there are available in the same physical dimensions with various bore sizes: 7/8", 1", 1 1/4" etc. It would be a simple matter to fit a heavier clutch pressure plate, but then to go to a correspondingly larger master cyl and retain the same clutch slave cyl. A change in the pivot dimension of the clutch pedal would be needed to give the same pedal travel with reduced travel of the Clutch Master push rod.
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I've heard speculation that the 4x4 Perenties used a low-but-sufficient clamping force pressure plate so as to reduce fatigue on the driver and give a more manageable pedal.
That's an unusual way to engineer a softer pedal feel.
I agree, but here we are. As Brian said, the only difference between 6x6 and 4x4 clutches is the pressure plate. Even better than playing with hydraulics and pivot points would be to install larger diameter friction and pressure plates - more torque capacity with the same clamping pressure and longer lasting clutches to boot.
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This is the clutch kit supplied to the ADF in my neck of the woods. The diaphragm is 1.7mm thicker than the Land Rover part.
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On installation, I replicated what I found when disassembling the clutch. The plastic retainer is secured in the fork hole only by a bonding agent. See arrow. Not in any manual I've read but makes sense.
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There is a plastic clip that retains the pushrod to the fork that is prone to snapping on installation so I was told.
With the warning from the parts supplier I was given a spare one just in case. So, I warmed it up in a glass of water in the microwave and it went on easy as. I repeated the previous "insurance measure" used being the cable tie around the clip for the future.
Used Sikaflex 227 to waterproof the bellhousing, starter motor and the clutch slave cylinder. Reamed the housing breather vent while I was at it.
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Ross just wait until to have to reverse a big trailer into a tight spot, you will wish that clutch to hell just ask me I know LOL cheers Dennis :)
I always use low range when reversing with a trailer as if I see someone riding the clutch I will have a go at them