Registry of Ex Military Land Rovers
Vehicle Research => Overseas Deployments => Topic started by: Tommy on March 01, 2015, 09:40:24 PM
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The photo below shows an aerial view of HMAS Sydney on one of her 'delivery' voyages to Vung Tau, SVN.
The original photo is high res and enables us to identify the vehicular cargo it has on it's flight deck. I have identified the following:
Land Rover:
88 - 42 (including 1 x ambulance)
109 GS/FFT - 18
Workshop - 5
Gunbuggy - 4
Trailer:
No.5 - 51
Workshop - 5
Other (generator, compressor etc) - 17
'Teaspoon Tipper' - 9
International Mk3 - 12 (including 3 x Instrument vans)
DUKW (Ducks) - 2
M113 - 10
Tractor Forklift - 2
Bulldozer - 3
Mystery Vehicle (under tarp) - 1
Click on image below (twice) to get HD version.
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Other photos of the same cargo.
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Tommy,
Very nice image. I'd say first delivery voyage 1965. It also looks like a trencher on the forward flight deck, too.
Mike
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Tommy,
Very nice image. I'd say first delivery voyage 1965. It also looks like a trencher on the forward flight deck, too.
Mike
Hello Mike
There are two tracked trenchers on board. The second is in the central group behind the 'Tea Spoon' tippers (see 4th photo in post #2).
Can you shed any light on the 'mystery' canvas covered vehicle. It is in size somewhere between a Land Rover and the Tipper. It looks too big for a Holden/Ford ute. Why do you think this particular vehicle is covered in canvas? Protection or 'hide from prying eyes'.
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I am having some trouble identifying with the dates.
The following picture shows the HMAS Sydney loading out of Brisbane in 1965 and to my knowledge this was her first delivery trip to Vietnam. On this trip 1 RAR and a supporting logistics force bound for Bien Hoa were carried over plus one or two admin bods to be dropped off at Saigon (There is a Kombi in shot somewhere besides the aft lift)
A couple of things date this shot, one being the Pommy Ensign flying on the ship (This was the last trip that this ensign was flown as the Brits took offence at their ensign being shown in a war zone in which they were not involved) and secondly the ship is loading in Brisbane. You will note that the load is different in that in the Brisbane shot there are piles of timber along the starboard aft deck and this does not show up in the aerial shot (plus the vehicles are different in this area.
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/glenpats/HMASSYDNEYBRISBANE1sttrip.jpg) (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/glenpats/media/HMASSYDNEYBRISBANE1sttrip.jpg.html)
The second trip the Sydney did to Vietnam left from Sydney and carried some much more delicate cargo (me!!.... along with 5 RAR and a few others) and this shot is not of that trip as the numbers of vehicles does not tally, nor were there any DUKWs on our trip. Also on both of those trips the shipping bars were plastered right across the windshields of everything, so easy to see.
The third trip also left from Sydney and carried 1 Tpt Platoon (33 Mk3 trucks so the numbers once again do not tally.)
So it could possibly have been a later trip but the DUKWs throw me in this line of thinking, as I have no recollections whatsoever of any being on our flightdeck at the time (That does not mean that there were none of course, only that I dont remember seeing any. They were being phased out and replaced by LARC v's from 1964 onwards) and the teaspoon tippers also tend to throw the dates askew. To my knowledge there were no more of these vehicles sent over as they had been replaced by the F2 tippers as from 1967.
I would be very interested to hear others input into the dating of this shot as there are a few other niggly little details that throw me a bit. The vehicles loaded aft look to be a Battalion strength (this is borne out by the 4 gunbuggies that would have belonged to the Support Coy. I am wondering whether it may be Borneo going by the amount of Engineer equipment on board up forward.
Regards
Glen
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What variant are those 2 tracked vehicles aft ( they have a flat roof )
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They look like command versions of the M113, the M577A1 with tarpaulin tops, but I am by no means sure.
Regards
Glen
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Tommy,,
Based on the outline, the first thing I thought was a Chevy or Ford pick-up... an F100 or the like ??
Pete
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They look like command versions of the M113, the M577A1 with tarpaulin tops, but I am by no means sure.
Regards
Glen
Hello Glen
27 May 1965, 1 Troop A Squadron, 4th/9th PWLH, embarked for service to South Vietnam and arrived in country around the 8 June 1965.
This photo shows the tarp and the support frame on the M113s as seen on the deck of the Sydney.
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Tommy,,
Based on the outline, the first thing I thought was a Chevy or Ford pick-up... an F100 or the like ??
Pete
Hello Pete
I discount the Fords as there were no F Series trucks on charge during 1965. No Chevs of that type either. I wonder if it may be an International AB120 Ceremonial tray top. If so, it may involve funeral duties. Not the sort of vehicle you want young soldiers looking at whilst on the way to SVN. I'm only guessing here but it would seem logical.
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Hi Tommy,
No idea what the truck under the tarp is. I'll see if I can find something 'odd' that fits.
The reason I think this is the first deployment is the tea-spoon tippers and the 10 APCs - two under transit covers, the rest 'open'. The initial deployment included 8 APCs for operations plus 2 theatre reserve. The configuration of the ship is also pre-July 1967, when Sydney started a major refit that included additional cranes and the LCM6. Two DUKW and later 3 were a feature of each of the early voyages - I've not seen anything that indicates otherwise, but I'll check my notes again in the light of the comments above. I'll also check when 134155 was sent to SVN, but I suspect it will coincide with voyage 1, 1965. Lastly, the images Tommy has placed here have the same vehicle stowage layout as the images in Mud & Dust on pages 17,18, and 22, which were Navy official captioned as May 65.
Regards
Mike
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Hi Glen,
I've checked the logs for HMAS Sydney:
First voyage was ex-Sydney, leaving 27 May 1965, with 1RAR aboard. Arrival at Vung Tau, SVN, on 8 June 1965.
Second voyage was ex-Brisbane, leaving 14 September 1965, arriving SVN 28 September 1965.
5RAR's time in SVN is listed in the Official History as April 66 to July 67, which would put them aboard Sydney on her third voyage, leaving Sydney on 22 April 1966 and arriving on 4 May at Vung Tau, then back into Sydney on 18 May 1966.
Sydney made two more voyages before refit: departed Sydney 25 May 1966 and arrived back into Sydney on 5 July; departed Sydney on 8 April 1967 with 7 RAR aboard, and arrived back into Sydney on 12 May 1967 with 5RAR aboard (but this date seems to clash with the Official history date of 5RAR's service until early July 67, unless this accounts for the 'rear details'?)
Also checked 134155: one of the 10 carriers assigned to 1ALSC so definitely transported to SVN on Sydney's first voyage.
Mike
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Thanks Stuart for a great photo resource. Best photo of VTF vehicle cargo to date!
As a sidebar..
Regarding 5RAR dates, the Wiki has references for the following:
5RAR RTA, 30 April 1967. Sydney welcome home march on 16 May 1967.
[ "The battalion returned to Australia in April 1967 and marched through the streets of Sydney on 16 May 1967; 25 men were killed in action or died of wounds, while 79 were wounded in action." ...reads as if there was a major contact in downtown Sydney. Wiki :) ]
The VTF book referenced below lists the following: HMAS Sydney arrived 12 May 1967 in Sydney and disembarked 5RAR and cargo.
The "early July 1967" Official date given for 5RAR RTA is therefore a little strange. 5RAR "Rear Details" arriving home (by way of another ship or QANTAS) up to 8 weeks later would be hard to explain; RAN/VTF 'Reports on Proceedings' mentions carrying 450+ battalion members, vehicles, equipment and cargo on many similar voyages.
A curious official RAN history of HMAS Sydney (the VTF): http://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-sydney-iii
Its got service details from 48 to pre-Vietnam. It gets very brief for the SVN service years before mentioning the South Koreans brought it for scrap in Oct 1975 after 711,549 sea miles.
The RAN says in that history that there were 24 voyages to South Vietnam. A total of 25 voyages are listed in the book "The Vung Tau Ferry (HMAS Sydney) And Escort Ships (Vietnam 1965-1972)" by Nott & Payne. I went to the AWM and read the 'Reports On Proceedings' in the collection. The ROPs are a summary of the ship's log provided to RAN HQ. This only added to the mystery: ROPs for HMAS Sydney for the whole of 1967 are not there. They are either gone to God or in the safe keeping of spooks.
What the VTF did between Christmas leave at Garden Is. 1966 and the end of Christmas leave in January 1968 is simply not there. Its not redacted or illegible, its not amongst the ROPs filed there. The Log of HMAS Sydney would be stored somewhere I suppose.
Last year I set out the Vung Tau Ferry and Jeparit voyages on a spreadsheet to try to make things clearer regarding the Battalion tours given the discrepancies:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UPfj3yHYGcvguqNto1VX0BNNMEP57IjmiSmoD5Zz6qo
The Jeparit left Vung Tau on a RTA voyage 2 July 1967 and unloaded in Sydney 18 July 1967. Could the Jeparit voyage have caused an error with the Official 5RAR dates?
I have the group of units listed as being RTA 5 July 1967 in the attached screencapture. The Units and dates there are extracted from the "Australian Army Orders" dated 31st May 1972 scanned pages posted by Stuart; http://remlr.com/forum/index.php?topic=215.0
Misinformation perhaps.
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Good job, Carzee.
John Carroll's recent book 'Out of Sight Out of Mind' states Sydney had 25 voyages, the last recorded as November 1972, well after the ground combat forces had left. The 24th voyage he has as Feb 1972. I had this as voyage 23, and the 'RAN In Vietnam' lists that February voyage as Sydney's 22nd!! From 'proceedings', I counted the Nov 1972 voyage as the 24th .... so go figure! Obviously more needs to be done to work out the exact number.
It can be accounted for by the fact that Carroll breaks voyage 5 into two voyages: Aust to SVN to Singapore as the 5th voyage, then Singapore to SVN to Sydney as the 6th voyage, whereas everyone else treats this as a single voyage (Aust to Aust - 8 April to 12 May 1967) as per RAN regulations - hence, he totals 25 whereas others total 24 ..... except the RAN who say 23! Carroll has 5RAR embarking at Vungers on 30 April and disembarking in Sydney on 12 May 1967.
None of the references list a voyage terminating in Sydney in July with 5RAR aboard.
Carrol does list another voyage pre-refit: departing Brisbane 19 May (so bloody quick turnaround in Sydney) with 2RAR aboard and arriving in VT 30 May 1967 to disembark 2RAR and embark 6RAR, who are then disembarked in Brisbane on 14 June.
Clear as mud, eh?!
Mike
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Good job, Carzee.
<snip>
... Clear as mud, eh?!
Mike
Perhaps the title of another book, Mud and Water, the inconsistent history of troop ship HMAS Sydney! :o
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Diana .... good one, but not good to be giving me yet more ideas .... hmmmmm.... I wonder ..... sub title: 'Sustainment Shipping for Australian Force Vietnam' by Carzee and Mike C??
Mike
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Best photo of VTF vehicle cargo to date!
Noting the the hangar deck is nearly as large as the flight deck there would have been lots of other vehicles stored down there along with lots of equipment and stores and I guess accommodation modules.
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Just need a picture of the hanger then? >:(
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Just need a picture of the hanger then? >:(
(Click on photo to increase size)
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John Carroll's recent book 'Out of Sight Out of Mind' states Sydney had 25 voyages, the last recorded as November 1972, well after the ground combat forces had left. The 24th voyage he has as Feb 1972. I had this as voyage 23, and the 'RAN In Vietnam' lists that February voyage as Sydney's 22nd!! From 'proceedings', I counted the Nov 1972 voyage as the 24th .... so go figure! Obviously more needs to be done to work out the exact number.
It can be accounted for by the fact that Carroll breaks voyage 5 into two voyages: Aust to SVN to Singapore as the 5th voyage, then Singapore to SVN to Sydney as the 6th voyage, whereas everyone else treats this as a single voyage (Aust to Aust - 8 April to 12 May 1967) as per RAN regulations - hence, he totals 25 whereas others total 24 ..... except the RAN who say 23! Carroll has 5RAR embarking at Vungers on 30 April and disembarking in Sydney on 12 May 1967.
Most of the "VTF" voyages are straightforward when summing up the total of voyages to South Vietnam in support of the Australian Task Force in South Vietnam. But others are not so straightforward.
"HMAS Sydney was initially used for training and a single supply run in support of Malaysia's defence policy against Indonesia, but in 1965, she sailed on the first voyage to Vũng Tàu, transporting soldiers and equipment to serve in the Vietnam War. 25 voyages to Vietnam were made between 1965 and 1972, earning the ship the nickname "Vung Tau Ferry"." (Wikipaedia)
Captions on some RAN photos in the AWM collection say 24 voyages. eg:
"During the Vietnam War, HMAS Sydney visited Vietnam on 24 occasions, transporting troops and equipment. She became affectionately known as the 'Vung Tau Ferry'." http://www.awm.gov.au/view/collection/item/NAVYM0621/20/
Here's a go at explaining the variety of totals mentioned in a variety of places regarding the passages of the "Vung Tau Ferry". As far as I can ascertain there are three HMAS Sydney voyages to Vung Tau that can be interpreted in different ways and contribute to the different totals:
(1) 20apr67 departed Vung Tau to go to Singapore then directly return to Vung Tau 30apr67. (So not a bona fide RTA passage.)
(2) mar71 passage from Adelaide to Vung Tau and return to Australia with a non-military cargo. It was Aid cargo arranged by the Dept of Foreign Affairs and the Australian Embassy Cambodia and the only part associated with the Australian Army was to help with the unloading at Vung Tau's pre-fab pier. (So this one is not a passage to Vung Tau "...transporting Australian Troops and Equipment".)
(3) nov71 passage from Australia to Vung Tau with a load of "Defence Equipment" and "Foreign Aid Supplies" and then off to Hong Kong and other RAN duties. Australian forces had not been in Vung Tau since the 1ATF and 1ALSG withdrawal was completed on 29feb72. (So this one is also not a passage to Vung Tau "...transporting Australian Troops and Equipment".)
I think that helps. But other info may further muddle the numbers.
I have modified my spreadsheet voyage count to reflect those 3 "extra" voyages.
It's possible to interpret that from the view of 1ATF there were 22 voyages but from the RAN point of view there were 25 voyages...
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Here's a good one (which can be magnified on the AWM website link) and its from 27may65; 1RAR embarking.
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/FOR/65/0060/EC/
(https://static.awm.gov.au/images/collection/items/ACCNUM_SCREEN/FOR%2F65%2F0060%2FEC.JPG)
"Garden Island, NSW. 27 May 1965. Troops of 1st Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment (1RAR), wait on Fitting Out wharf to board HMAS Sydney as it comes alongside. The troopship was loaded and ready to sail to South Vietnam during the night." [It departed at 0139hrs] A News blackout was in place. On this first voyage to SVN, HMAS Sydney was accompanied by RAN assets Duchess, Melbourne, Vampire, Parramatta, Supply (tkr) and RAAF surveillance as well. Perhaps there was a submarine presence somewhere in the story as well.
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Up thread there was a post about the possibility of unknown or unseen vehicle cargo below the flight deck. I have looked over all the Stowage Plans at the AWM (for Sydney, Jeparit, others). The Stowage Plans are prepared by the RAN before the berthing of the ship as an SOP. On the diagram of the flight deck it lists the ARNs and vehicle make in nearly all cases (which is why I was looking at them carefully). Even if there is no ARN (such as a Red Cross vehicle) the vehicle is clearly noted as having no ARN. The Stowage Plan is sorted by a RAN officer or two (I assume) because its giving thought to the ship balance and superstructure stresses. I cannot recall seeing vehicles listed below decks on any off the plans.
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Carzee re the hangar deck cargo I am sure your research is correct and in some respects makes sense but in others not quite so. Clearly the vehicles could sustain bad weather better than pallets of breakfast soggies but the vehicles would have still been quite vulnerable.
I have been on Sydney's sister ship Melbourne when there were 6' foot high waves rolling down the flight deck and had it happened on Sydney on a VT run would have caused a few problems. Certainly Sydney had aircraft washed overboard when she was still an aircraft carrier in bad weather in the Korean War.
Great research which I have followed with interest. Has it shown up any issues with vehicles being washed overboard in heavy weather. Deck cargo on merchant ships in many respects is protected by the raised bow but in carriers with the flight deck the same height as the top of the bow, waves tend to roll down the deck in heavy weather.
Cheers
Garry
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Its interesting that we only have a few bad weather damage or similar documented notes from 2AOD Vung Tau amongst all the documents for the VTF and the Jeparit too. One memorable one was water damage to the insides of a Cent as the turret leaked. Others in another thread mention some vehicels were not prepped for the voyage as per SOP and needed replacement parts on misc items such as indicator lenses as I recall.
It was a lot of freight and a lot of ocean miles when you look at 1965-1972 in summary. Its a wonder there wasn't more L & D.
I do have a copy of the post-SVN-task Logistic Study somewhere here at home. Had it 20 years. I wonder if L & D even rates a mention.
See the other thread hereabouts regarding HMAS Sydney and 1ATF: http://remlr.com/forum/index.php?topic=206.0
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'Chloe' 112-501 is amongst that lot somewhere cheers Dennis :)
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'Chloe' 112-501 is amongst that lot somewhere cheers Dennis :)
That's 50 years ago (in around ten weeks or so)! The ship sailed to South Vietnam on the night of 27 May 1965.
Chloe was probably in top nick - 2 years old back then. Then she got soaked in sea spray on the deck of the VTF for 10 days or so...
All the anniversaries..
The ROPs of the VTF mention that 120 RAN crew from HMAS Sydney (berthed at Garden Is) took part in Commemoration Services for the 50th Anniversary of the ANZAC Landings (25 April 1965).
And now we're seeing the run up toward the 100th Anniversary of the ANZAC landings next month.
There's something about all these Anniversaries that prompt certain things that need doing: plaques, monuments, books, gifts, etc.
Which leads me to this: Major-General Ferguson (retired) has made an appeal to bring home some of our War Dead buried in Malaya: "The Terendak Garrison Cemetery is deteriorating and for security reasons is exceptionally difficult to access". (quoted from the article in the Dec 2014 issue of Official Journal Of The Vietnam veterans Association Of Australia). Terendak is not a Commonwealth War Graves Cemetery and not in good condition. Twenty-four Australian servicemen are buried there, including Mjr Peter Badcoe VC (https://www.awm.gov.au/people/P10676758/).
On a personal note, one of the others buried there is Pte. Chris Clark (KIA at Op. Crimp, 8 January 1966). 50 years since that last leave and an Easter egg hunt.
Wouldn't that be a great gesture, to be brought home after 50 years.
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I know nothing about Sydney but vehicles were RTA below decks on Jeparit in Dec 70. I seem to remember a vehicle in amongst the pallets of liquid refreshment for the trip back. There were a lot of vehicles on the hatch covers. A very polite Leading Seaman apologised for re lashing them after we had finished. "No offence but I have chased trucks around the deck in a storm before and I don't want to do it again."
As for L & D I would suggest that a bit of that happened whilst the ship was alongside in Sydney but one shouldn't tell tales.
Geoff.
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Yes, Jeparit routinely carried vehicles below decks as well as on the main deck & hatches.
On a slightly different note, I see the Army Newspaper has recently published a 'special' about the M113A1 APC, written by Bill Houston and Paul Handel. Doesn't break any new ground, but some interesting 'facts' emerge, including that five (5) M113A1 APCs went to Vietnam on that first voyage that left Oz on 27 May. The authors clearly didn't take a look at this thread and count the number on the deck of Sydney for that first voyage.
Can't say I always get it right, either, but I think in this case, the facts are well known, so some disappointing errors.
Mike
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'Chloe' 112-501 is amongst that lot somewhere cheers Dennis :)
Hey Dennis, have you seen this AWM video:
112-501 is being unloaded at 06:02:53:20
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F10736/
Screenshot is attached.
Cheers.
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lol I found the answer myself ::)
http://remlr.com/forum/index.php?topic=1496.0
Nice one Stuart :)
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As you have said LOL, Stuart found it some time ago, cheers Dennis