Registry of Ex Military Land Rovers
REMLR Technical => Mechanical => Topic started by: Auxfire on June 08, 2014, 11:49:46 AM
-
I have noticed 48-364 has started to change from silky smooth gear changes to being hard to get into gear. Particularly when coming out of fourth off the motorway, it's now off the road until I can work out whether its clutch or gearbox trouble.
Seems to go into gear again if I put the transfer into neutral then back into high but either sticks in gear or in neutral after driving for a while. Any ideas?
-
What gearbox oil are you using ?
There has been a bit of discussion here on the use of synthetic alternatives which users have found to be superior.
-
I got lazy & had the last service done by a local mechanic who works on a few perenties, so no idea what oil he used Dugite.
Turns out it was the clutch slave cylinder. Had the master replaced at the same time & she's back on the road again.
-
Having a cuppa right now and feeling unlucky etc.
Lately the early morning frosty engine warmup routine has been the norm and when driving for the first 10 minutes I have been double clutching by default- gear changing has been very sticky and careful, especially 1st into 2nd. The stick has been needing a big yank to get out of that 1st gear slot.
Rangy recently recommended a change of 'box oil to Fuchs 5w-30 or something and i had that job on the to do list... But I was suspecting the main culprit was a low quality built slave clutch cylinder...
I purchased a used slave clutch cylinder last week and sourced a local guy "Trevor" who will re-sleeve it with stainless steel this week... But this morning coming to work was -5deg and frosty at 0730 and just outside the main gate the ability to engage ceased and desisted.
Its just bad timing i know, but now i need a tow home come 1500.
-
While on shift I arranged a helping hand/phone a friend, Wayne T, and he was parked outside the gate with his GS bedside my FFR when I clocked off. The incoming shift had asked what was going on and "why was the Army out front" with a smile.
Anyway, Wayne had diagnosed the problem before I got there and had the bonnet up - he saw there was no fluid in the reservoir up top on the master beside the firewall and the slave cylinder has a small leak. Maybe the rubber flex pipe is also shot somewhere. We left and purchased some Dot 4 then returned to do the bleeding. Took quite a while. So that gave me gear selection back again. Maybe tomorrow it will revert to U/S again but at least I got to drive home and saved a tow job.
Tomorrow I will get the stainless recond. job underway on the spare slave cyl. and buy some genuine girling rubber as well.
-
I have not got the resleeved slave cylinder back as yet, but no hurry, 50-257 has not been off the road while I wait.
In fact the other day Rangy35 changed the gearbox oil at Roverworks and now there is no early morning / cold engine sticky gear problem at all. So a big thank you to the expertise of Johnny: he put in the hi tech ATF as he does in his own Perentie.
I will still fit the recond. slave cyl and flexy hose of course.
-
I have not got the resleeved slave cylinder back as yet, but no hurry, 50-257 has not been off the road while I wait.
In fact the other day Rangy35 changed the gearbox oil at Roverworks and now there is no early morning / cold engine sticky gear problem at all. So a big thank you to the expertise of Johnny: he put in the hi tech ATF as he does in his own Perentie.
I will still fit the recond. slave cyl and flexy hose of course.
Hi Ross
What was the actual ATF he put in?
Thanks
-
As mentioned there is a lot of talk about gearbox oils and issues that come up. I have stayed with engine oil and it works fine in all conditions. I also live in Canberra with its cold mornings in winter and hot summers - no issue when gear changing so why change when it works and works great.
Gearboxes are too expensive to risk changing oils.
Garry
-
Well its been a week so far with no more sticky shifting and thats even at dead cold let alone when its warmed up. Problem solved. I'm prepared to accept that after 25yrs lube solutions are more varied. Johnny uses HiTec Multitrans full synthetic (gold colour atf not red) and in my gearbox its chalk and cheeze: i don't know what BAE/Frontline put in there in 2014... but it wasn't very good.
-
Thats great - just make sure you never put any variation of EP90 in the box as it will kill it pretty quickly.
Garry
-
HI,
I've used Nulon G70 in my gear box with a Nulon 15w40 diesel engine oil, seems to work well just a bit hard getting into 2nd when very cold after that fine
Any comments??
Nulon say it's fine in the LT95 box
http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Specialty_Products/Manual_Gearbox_and_Diff_Treatment/
-
My exact sentiments, if it works for you stick with it.
I am very cautious about what lubes to use and the gearbox oil or ATF/MTF that I use has been used in my Perentie for about 25-30,000 km, I have changed it three times and purely because I wanted to flush the gearbox and make sure there was no trace of the old oil and to make sure there was no foreign matter floating around due to the fact that I am convinced the guys that serviced my Perentie was way below spec. The faults and extreme lack of maintenance was appalling to say the least.
Glad you are happy Ross.
-
Hi Johnny, yes excellent fix.
Um, watcha got for toothache? :(
I'm on Panadol Forte this weekend and so far its not cutting it.
-
Unlucky or what? As of this time yesterday (without any notice or noises), I've got gearbox problems: when I'm underway I can't select 2nd gear going up 1234 or coming down 4321. But selecting 2nd from a standing start is fine -you can pull away with care and go up to 3 and 4.
Minikeg had a similar problem on his GS Perentie and chasing up the fault it turned out to be caused by a bit of a plastic or rubber bush that got too old and fell to bits, down into the selector mechanism on top of the box - the piece only blocked selection of 2nd. Johnny had a good test drive. Ruled out the slave clutch (still haven't installed the recon part) as a cause but until removing the floor and having a good look it could be any number of mech faults - perhaps a U/S dog clutch or a rebuild coming up (worse case scenario).
At this stage I have booked a service slot for Sept 2nd, could be there a while - Roverworks is very busy.
-
As has been said by black knight on other gear box problems, I would ask "Bearman". He's a busy man but he's a god with LT95a's AND he's a gentleman!!
-
:) Spoke with Bearman via PM in the last couple of days.
Today the rain stopped so I got the gearbox top cover plate off. I thought a photo record could be useful for other gearbox newbs sometime.
Here we go with Bearman's helpful PM:
"Firstly take the gearbox tunnel rubber cover off and then take out the 3 shouldered studs that hold the gear lever into the top of the gearbox. There should be a neoprene washer above the ball of the lever under the round plate with the 3 shouldered studs."
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0mc2uX1nO0rz6hh8Effhej6-PwftLXWDqdUwfQa-9GY=w1446-h1084-no)
"Have a look down the hole with a torch and see if there is anything in the selector jaws that could be causing it and also inspect the flattened end of the gear lever for any damage. Then take the four bolts out that hold the two hi/lo lever brackets and remove the lever by undoing the nut on the adjustable rod pivot."
I couldn't see anything much at all.
I moved the brackets out of the way and began the top cover removing job.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MkC7UhjbMRssbf-gzr-ZAqQf0K2Fvckkof5XqrK9tmU=w813-h1084-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6LpPCMQgspMFyquzfdp8b9_iqUJdBzdNXiqjjs8nVqY=w1332-h1084-no)
"Undo the breather pipe banjo bolt and move the breather out of the way."
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pkldVMtZehf_WcGMixGRpp-0ynoiBEbUYrXtIT_espA=w813-h1084-no)
"Then take out the remaining studs on the top cover and gently prise the top up."
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/r60T79DOEgAfBJIoadz8m05tpKYqoHBN2qJiI-18Eig=w813-h1084-no)
"Be careful as you lift the top cover as there are three selector springs that are partly engaged into it and will fall out or down into the box unless you are careful.
Make sure you lift it up evenly all around.
When you have it off, pick the three springs out and keep the reverse one separate (the one on the passenger side) it's a little different to the other two."
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0qzd7rFcm5Fz0ukgBEBqpY9gl47bOxhueZ13EMTSxM4=w813-h1084-no)
"There are three ball bearings, one under each spring, and they should stay in their holes
- make sure they do -
as its a box out job if they go down into the works.
Put a dob of grease down each hole to hold them in there."
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/GWgJ-WrcBJ4bHZnMWWCxivGrUPn-y8ei-kQQ_a_-PGA=w813-h1084-no)
"Now you can see the selectors and the tops of the gears. Have a look at the drivers side selector (1st and 2nd). The synchro hub itself looks like a straight cut gear (it is actually the reverse drive part of the mainshaft)."
"Stick a flat screwdriver between the synchro hub and the gear in front of it which is 2nd, and see if you can move it towards the front of the box. It should have hardly any movement. If it can move a couple of mm forward then the problem is the snap ring in front of 3rd gear on the mainshaft and its a box out job to fix. In this case what happens is the gear moves forward when the synchro hub tries to engage it and won't select. If there's no movement there have a good look over the selector and pads and move the selector by hand back and forwards onto 1st and 2nd gear and see what's happening. You should find the problem there somewhere."
I have moved the driver side selector from one limit to the other. This would be similar to sitting in the vehicle whilst stationary and being able to select gears as normal. I could select 2nd and then pull away and go up through the gears ok, but once on the move 2nd gear was locked out.
"Where you have the screwdriver is 1st gear. 2nd gear is in front of the selector hub and under the rear of the selectors."
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hxcaIHoM5ZNtRdwz2sD1MjR6N8ajc0dmH3nUsbXqUJs=w970-h1084-no)
The brass looking "synchro cones" move by hand or screwdriver at least 4mm, plenty of slop. But I think they may be designed to do that.
-
Carzee,
Great post and even better photo's.
Keep them coming!!
Regards,
Phil B
-
Thats the synchro hub not first gear Carzee. 1st gear is the helical cut gear at the rear and 2nd is the one in front of the synchro hub under the rear of the selectors. You can see it just under/behind the cross bit of the casing with the springs and ball bearings. And yes the brass rings are the synchro cones which float quite loosely on the front tapered face of the gears.
-
Ok, I will fix that. Thanks a ton Bearman.
I just went looking for 2nd (helical gear) and used the screwdriver tried to lever against the selector and against the start of the synchro hub for movement. No movement found so far.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZRAtMV4Y6KrFlkLLU3jMgf_0fEkatDk6TxsgUpKO3po=w1628-h1084-no)
Where to now?
"If there's no movement there, have a good look over the selector and pads and move the selector by hand back and forwards onto 1st and 2nd gear and see what's happening. You should find the problem there somewhere.""
-
Carzee, Great post and even better photo's. Keep them coming!! Regards, Phil B
Its my HTC smartphone from 2012 - its been 3 years and it hasn't been swimming in the toilet yet.
-
Try the screwdriver against the front of the gear and see if it will move backwards and if it does then go back to the rear of it and see how far forward it will move. If you are sure it is ok then try moving the selector back and forward from 1-2 and watch the gears to see if 2nd is selecting properly. The outer synchro hub should go right over the synchro cone and fully engage the dog teeth on the gear. 2nd gear shouldn't move when you try to engage it.
-
Thanks for that. I will have a go after work tomorrow. After this long weekend (I'll be in downtown Frankston Vic).
In the meantime I have been looking over the 1st and 2nd ROPS.
see att.
-
Well the melbourne trip is over. We took the Yaris. Before we left last Saturday i had checked the 2nd gear for movement and didn't find any in any direction. This morning i put the cover on the LT95 and drove it over to repairer without a passenger floor -noisey, a bit. Should have a diagnosis soon.
-
Learn all you can and take notes Ross, it'll be good specialist knowledge to have on The Trek :)
-
Re the Trek I'm reading all and sundry on the Simpson Desert routes when I can.
Re G'box experience...
Lets talk about the side plate I discovered:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6LpPCMQgspMFyquzfdp8b9_iqUJdBzdNXiqjjs8nVqY=w1332-h1084-no)
Seen there, low down the side of the gearbox, is the 23 or 24mm gearbox oil filler plug. Can't remember which size it was. The filler plug is on a removable (4 bolts) (squarish shape) inspection plate.
Why am I talking about the side plate?
When you are in a rush you make mistakes. I tried to place the gearbox top cover plate on in a bit of a rush. I went to bolt it up but it was not sitting level... and in doing some investigation of why it was not level.... one of those three pesky selector rod springs (the ones that sit vertically on top of a ball bearing) dropped in and went for a swim. I heard it splash as it dropped into the pool of dinosaur juice (gearbox oil).
The top cover problem (not sitting level without effort) was that I hadn't put the selectors "home" in an aligned position (after all that trying to find a fault and gear movement), so that a 2 inch long pin sitting on the inside of the top cover plate was fouling the selector mechanism.
Oh well.
I drained the oil out the drain plug into a clean container. Once it was low tide in there I used my good torch and could see that the runaway spring was actually beached beside the drain plug hole.
I tried coat hanger wire to hook up the spring. No go. Because of the chassis position I could not see straight into the plug hole from the side. But I did note that the plug and the main filler plug are mounted on a simple bolt-on removable side plate. I unbolted the plate (will need a new gasket but its good enough for 25km drive to Roverworks) and I had the spring in my hand quickly.
I then replaced the side plate and the plugs. I carefully put on the three springs and the top cover on correctly (will need a new gasket etc) and then put on the breather banjo connection and then the HiLo lever brackets.
Before putting on the main gear lever (with its three bolts) I refilled the gearbox oil (from the temporary container) using the top cover hole/mount for the main gear lever.
I then warmed it up and drove the 25km drive to Roverworks.
In a trek scenario, say 200km from a town somewhere out in the red dunes, the blown sand would have made the situation very difficult. Not to mention flies and heat.
Anyway, I got a little lesson as you say.
-
I drove the Perentie to Roverworks to get the work done - again, the only hassle is selecting 2nd gear on the move. That was Sept 2nd. I got a call on the next Monday, Sept 7th, to say the gearbox would have to come out and be dismantled to find the fault. On Monday Sept 14th I called in to chat. The box was away getting rebuilt by a specialist who does their gearboxes somewhere in Canberra. The box will have a 40,000km warranty. And the gearbox specialist said the oil pump was worn.
I still don't know exactly what failed in the box. It was left to me to put the dots together. All this winter, for the first few km after a early morning (frosty neg temps), the 2nd gear was almost impossible to get. But only when it was dead cold. Other gears were no so bad when it was dead cold. As it warmed up I would double clutch to get 2nd and then after a few Km all was normal. If the oil pump was failing to lube the 2nd gear synchro perhaps that explains the main fault which appeared late last month. As seen up thread, when the MTF was put in the box at Roverworks in late June, the cold gearbox problem disappeared.
So, the vehicle may be ready in a week's time for the LR Expo. My recon. slave clutch will be put in as well.
Re the Expo, we're booked and paid up for the whole weekend. Paying 5k for a rebuild and fitting is depressing and annoying to say the least, but to take 20+ days and to miss the Expo on top of all that would be too much.
... and yes, the MTF is going in the box. Hopefully we are one more dependable component closer to a relaible vehicle for the lap of Australia.
-
Not looking good for the griefbox.
I rang last week and the office asked to me to check with them Tuesday, 22nd, as thats when it was meant to be "going in".
When I rang the date was shifted to Wednesday 23rd (3 weeks exactly after I drove it up to RW workshop).
Yo yo is still in bits I'm afraid.
-
$5K for a LT95 rebuild - surely they are having a lend of you but I am not surprised - they are an expensive place.
-
I would have done it for $3500!!
-
The cost is unknown as yet, as is the reason the box developed a problem. Everyone is just too busy to chat like the good ol' days.
-
I visited this morning and the box is in... but not ready. Road testing today. Should've been done Monday.
They said they'd call me this afternoon because they knew I had the annual Expo on.
They did call. Sorry. Its not right, needs more time, a bush is wrong. See you Tuesday perhaps.
I'm shattered.
UPDATE
Phone call today Sept 30. Ready to pick up. 28 days to the day to do the job. :(
-
Ha ha ha, test post worked mate
-
So, have you got it back or not?
Re: the selector springs taking a swan dive into the pool - I have a 'play' LT95 here that I took the top cover off and all 3 springs went for a swim - I have one of those long bendy things (technical description) from SuperSUPERCheap with a magnet on the end. 30 seconds of fishing and I had all 3 back in my hand. Used it to extract those 3 ball bearings, too, so I wouldn't lose them whilst playing...
If you ever pull the CDL apart - the same size spring and ball bearing is used there. The springs (by part number) are not the same as those used on the Series gearboxes but are not hard to replace. Reverse is just a little longer so stand them up and take a look - easy to see which is reverse - or if they are all the same, reverse one has collapsed and should be replaced...
Have fun.
-
Hi John, its back in - I'm driving it around and it feels like a new gearbox, very tight on the selector. Much improved.
Here are some photos of what was said to be "the main problem"; the oil pump ingested some small springs "R503805" (ROPS section FEG #019 and FEE ##021). One R503805 spring of the synchro clutch assembly was bent up. Mysteriously the magnetic drain plug didn't have much metal debris attached as I said up thread. The Roverworks shop gave me a box of bits that were replaced. But the pump assembly had to go back to the mystery shop that overhauled the box so they could rebuild it - it was an exchange part.
https://goo.gl/photos/AkECiQUxVnGMPv3Z9
https://goo.gl/photos/PYz9PYdgKnSpimJz7
https://goo.gl/photos/VNVpWqSQjSFZ8q4a8
-
Here is a photo of the box in the Land Rover wearing a fresh coat of spraycan silver:
https://goo.gl/photos/bAgdPgt9i6Q61ffr9
https://goo.gl/photos/RQEnVh9ksmhApW8C9
-
Hmmm - OK
Good you have it back.