Author Topic: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck  (Read 138760 times)

Offline THE BOOGER

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1516
  • THANKS 148
  • Location: wetherill park, sydney
  • REMLR No: 282
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #165 on: July 06, 2017, 06:21:20 PM »
Up to five pics per post I use shrink pic to auto resize so they fit. Not aware of any limit per the forum post away ;D it is a bit slower than photobucket but we cant lose any photos this way :)
s111 GS, no 5, xt600 & Ferret mk2
Geoff C

Offline Ravvin

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 586
  • THANKS 61
  • Location: Wesley Vale, Tasmania
  • REMLR No: 432
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #166 on: July 12, 2017, 05:31:58 PM »
Well, it looks like I may have worked out the oil leak on the rear driver's side hub, one of the ones I have rebuilt.
I was ready to refill the intermediate diff with oil and noticed the truck was leaning over a fair bit as the ground slopes out the back. It didn't seem a lot, but I figured I should jack the low side up to level the diff so I could get the correct amount of oil in there. When I previously filled the rear diff, I found the amount listed in the F1 User Manual and used that to measure out the oil and pour in.
Anyway, I put my level across the tops of the springs, just in front of where they rest on the top of the axle housing. It was way out. I ended up jacking the driver's side up over 6" before getting the axle level. I built up the pad under the 3 tonne axle stand, as I want to leave the wheels off until I have the oil topped up. It's hard enough to get in between the 2 diffs with them off, let alone when you have to wriggle between the tires. I'm not built for that these days.
With the intermediate axle now sitting level, I could see that the rear one was also way out. Turns out it was also about 6" low. This means the diff oil would have run across and been sitting against the seal for all those months since I refilled it. The passenger's side should be fine, but I think I better pull the driver's side apart again and see how badly it has affected the grease packed around the bearings. Hopefully, I just need to drain the excess oil out, which I can do by pulling the axle out.
What worries me now is that the oil was leaking out around the axle flange. When I rebuilt it, I made a new 0.6mm thick paper gasket and also used Permatex non-hardening gasket goop. Either the oil got out through the paper gasket, or the gasket goop didn't do it's job. The intermediate axles were also replaced with the same gaskets, but I used a Loctite silicone type gasket maker. I'm sort of thinking I should just ditch the paper gaskets and use the silicone gasket stuff.

Oh, how's this for confusing? I went to check the oil capacities of the rear and intermediate diffs, so I could measure it out into bottles before wriggling under the truck. I went through the F1 User Manual and found 3 different capacities!



That is from pages 11, 15 & 86 of the F1 User Manual.

So either 6.7 pints, 7 pints or 9 pints. (3.8 litres, 4 litres or  5.1 litres)
Actually, if you look at the second pic, it has an error. It shows 7 imp pints as being 4.8 litres. It's not, it's 4 litres.

So, confusing as this all is, I'm just going to level the diff up and fill it to the bottom of the filler hole.
I levelled up the 2 diffs last night and this afternoon I pulled the bung out on the rear diff to check the level. I thought I might have overfilled it as it was angled over so far. Turns out the current level is about an inch down, so I will have to top it up. The rest is probably sitting in the hub with the nicely cleaned and packed wheel bearings.

Greg.

Offline STDDIVER

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 570
  • THANKS 65
  • Location: Portland Vic
  • REMLR No: 482
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #167 on: July 12, 2017, 07:48:13 PM »
Greg - Good one, I have just finished all 6 wheels on my F1 and only had to replace three oil seals, the brakes were like brand new and very few wheel end leaks at all.  Now to the main drive shaft seals, that's another matter!  I used the keep it level and pump oil in until the level is one small finger tip below the filler hole.  I'll let you know how it works.  (Can't find emoticon for fingers crossed)  :D

Always enjoy reading your progress!

Frank

Offline Ravvin

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 586
  • THANKS 61
  • Location: Wesley Vale, Tasmania
  • REMLR No: 432
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #168 on: July 13, 2017, 11:52:35 AM »
It's hard to tell where all my leaks are, as the diffs, power dividers, transfer case, gearbox and hydraulic pump for the crane are all coated in a thick layer of oil and dirt. It's over 1cm thick in many places.
Degreaser and a pressure washer don't make a dent in it at all. I used a narrow paint scraper to clean the thickest layers of it off the axle housings, and then used diesel and a wire brush to clean it back well enough for degreaser to finish the job. That was so I could paint the axle housings while the wheels were off. I still have to do the diff centre area though. No rush there. I'll wait till the tray is off and I can move it around the paddock, killing as much grass as possible.

I have rebuilt all 4 of the rear hubs now. I replaced all of the seals at the back of the hubs. All the ones I removed were the old felt and leather type and 2 were leaking. This was on the rear axle. The diff breather was blocked, so the pressure built up in there when it was warm and forced the oil past the outer seals, mixing it with the grease and then pushing it out past the back seal. I replaced the breathers on the back 2 diffs with a nipple, hose and sintered bronze filter, which was sold as a fuel filter. I ran the hose up the flexible brake lines from the diff centre, securing it with cable ties, which places the filter end up inside the chassis rail. I'll do the same with the front, when I get there. With the power dividers, transfer case and winch, I will just replace the original breather with a screw-in version of the brass filter. Its a good chance that these breathers are blocked, which has caused the oil leaks. Time will tell.

Do you remember where you got your outer seals? I think mine will be ok, as they weren't cracked or worn, and still seemed pretty flexible. I spent ages chasing after replacements before realising mine were still good, and I couldn't find anyone in Australia still selling them.

If your transfer case is caked with oil and dirt like mine, its a good chance that the old felt and leather seals are leaking. The good news is that they are all cheap to replace and you can do it while sitting under the truck. I replaced all the seals on the transfer case while it was out of my MK3. As the truck had been sitting still for many years, the nasty corrosive stuff that had run through the tray soaked into the felt of the seals and pitted the sealing surface of the drive flanges. I had to put Speedi-Sleeves on them all. When I replaced the seals, I was able to get much thinner, double lipped versions. This let me replace the originals with 2 thin seals, back to back. Even if the edge of the Speedi-Sleeve damaged one lip, there were 3 more.
If you plan on replacing the seals, let me know and I'll look up the numbers of the ones I used.

Greg.

Offline STDDIVER

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 570
  • THANKS 65
  • Location: Portland Vic
  • REMLR No: 482
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #169 on: July 13, 2017, 12:25:48 PM »

Hi Greg - I purchased the seals from Mr Pat Toole, in Albury.  He is super helpful and very fast with delivery.  10/10 on all accounts.    I purchased some others by part number from a company in Melbourne - wrong size and it was just too hard to correct.  Thanks for the offer for the part numbers.  I know I am going have to replace them, and sooner is better than later.  I had a laugh when you mentioned the grass control method!   ;D   Oh to have space!  You are lucky to have your own test track too.

With an attempt to make the F1 more usable on the road, I have installed small LED long range driving lights.  These are fitted in such a way they can be removed without affecting the originality of the truck at the same time the light output is considerably much better.  I have nearly finished the carpeting of the interior after putting in heaps of body deadener and noise deadener in the engine compartment.  Diana made mention of how much noisier the diesel is over the standard 282 petrol engine, so at this stage I thought it would be best to reduce as much noise as I could.  Thermally it will be a vast improvement too.  I am going to put sound deadener under the bonnet as I have heard this works very well -

I have one spare axle oil seal if you need it.  Enjoy this post - this is what REMLR is all about.

Cheers Mate
Frank

Offline Chazza

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 569
  • THANKS 99
  • Location: Narrogin
  • REMLR No: 217
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #170 on: July 14, 2017, 08:23:38 AM »
... Even if the edge of the Speedi-Sleeve damaged one lip, there were 3 more.
Greg.

On splined-shafts, or Speedi-sleeves, wrap the shaft in a layer of copper or aluminium foil before installing the seal; this protects it from sharp edges.

Usually, with Speedi-sleeves I dull the edge with an oil-stone and kerosene before installing it,

Cheers Charlie
S2 Command Recce '59
S2A 109" GS '63
S2A Fire Truck '64

Offline Ravvin

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 586
  • THANKS 61
  • Location: Wesley Vale, Tasmania
  • REMLR No: 432
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #171 on: July 14, 2017, 09:17:14 AM »
The problem I had was only with the first one that I installed, so it was probably just me.
When I cracked the rounded lip off, it didn't peel away cleanly and I twisted it until it broke away. This left a little burr on the edge. I noticed it though, and tried to tap it down flat, but it's springy stuff. I eventually got it smooth by gently draw-filing it.

Greg.

Offline Ravvin

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 586
  • THANKS 61
  • Location: Wesley Vale, Tasmania
  • REMLR No: 432
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #172 on: July 15, 2017, 04:42:19 PM »
Didn't quite get it moved today.
I started by pulling the rear axle on the driver's side to clean the leaked oil out.



The axle came out easily, and I realised what caused the leak. When I put it together last time, I hadn't finished painting the sling ring, so I left it off. It acts as a spacer, so the nuts couldn't quite pull the axle flange in tight enough.
As the axle started to come out, a big dribble of blue goop trickled out. Luckily, it looks like only a small bit of oil got past the seal to mix with the wheel bearing grease. That wheel has probably only turned about 10 revs since I repacked it, so the oil never got mixed in. I scraped out all the watery grease and found that as I got closer to the bearing, the thicker it was. I actually had solid grease at the bearings, so I stopped there and repacked the outer groove with fresh grease and put it back together, this time with the sling ring in place. Once tightened to 150 ft/lbs, I topped up the diff with about 1 cup of oil and then refilled the middle axle.

Next job was to put the wheels back on. This was a bit tricky as I have the driver's side jacked up to keep the axles level. I eventually remembered my ATV lift that I used to lower the transfer case on the MK3. I parked it under the hub, rolled the wheel on and jacked it up. Once the top cleared the brake drum, I lowered it a bit and it slipped straight into position.



The back wheel is still in it's original flaky paint with an old Dunlop tire on it. I will change the tire and clean and paint the rim when the weather is warmer so the paint will cure. It will do for now.

I thought I was done and ready to drive it around, but luckily remembered that I had removed most of the tray hold-down U-bolts to clean the chassis rails. I hadn't realised just how much the chassis flexes. With all the hold-downs removed on the drivers side and the back axles jacked up level, the chassis was flexing so far that I couldn't get the nuts on the U-bolts. Eventually I worked out that all I had to do was jack up the front axle and it all aligned again. I put 2 hold-downs on each side for now, just to stop it slipping off as I move around the yard a bit so I can park closer to the fence.
I have to try to find a couple of empty drums during the week. I have 3, but want 2 more so I can have 2 under the back, with wood blocks on top to pack it up, like when raising a house, and 2 at the front to support a long beam which will raise the front of the tray. Originally I was going to just have them under the tray, like the rear ones, and then realised that I wouldn't get the back wheels past them when I drove out. The 5th drum is to slip under where it is needed so I can jack the tray up off it and then repack the blocks on top of the other drums.

So, hopefully next weekend is the big move.

Greg.

Offline Ravvin

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 586
  • THANKS 61
  • Location: Wesley Vale, Tasmania
  • REMLR No: 432
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #173 on: July 28, 2017, 06:29:26 PM »
Oh god, what an embarrassment.
I got home early today so I could move the truck. With the boat fuel tank strapped down, I got in and warmed it up. All my instruction plates are off at the moment, but I was pretty sure that pushing the transfer case lever forwards was for High Rear wheel drive and back was Low Rear wheel drive. You had to pull the little lever up to free the detent thing to get it into 6x6 and I found I can't get enough air pressure up to activate that, as there is a hole in one of the steel lines running to the rear Tractor Protection Valve. I can only get it up to about 300kPa, or 29 psi. Wasn't enough, anyway, as it wouldn't engage.

Anyway, I put it in first and tried to drive forwards. It was like I had an anchor out. It would creep forwards, but the engine was really struggling and twisting on the mounts with the strain.
I tried rocking it, thinking something might just be tight from not moving in so long, but it didn't help. I managed to creep forward a full truck length until the tires on the middle axle dropped into the holes where the front had settled over the last year and a half.
The soil out the back is basically an ancient sand dune that now has a lot of organic matter in it. Anything sitting on it slowly sinks in, but you could empty a water tanker out on it and never know.
With the first back tires in the hole, the rears started to slip, then the 2 on the passenger side spun freely. Things went downhill from there. I tried going back, but that didn't work either. Time to get out and have a look.



Yeah, stuck.
Now what was causing the drag? That was a real concern. I remember it was a struggle getting it down from the tilt tray originally. I thought it was the rear brakes sticking because someone had 2 of the shoes on backwards, but I had rebuilt all four rear hubs and they all spun. Then I had a thought. What if the damn winch drive was engaged, even though the lever in the cab was in the disengage position?
I got underneath and spent the next 45 minutes scraping grease and gunge off the winch drive shaft flange, looking for the bolts. Finally got them out and the shaft hanging free. Tried to move the truck and it still was struggling. Not that then.
Next thing, front axles and brakes. I got underneath and tried jacking the passenger side up but it just pushed my jacking block into the ground. I found a jacking block with a bigger footprint and tried again. Got the tire off the ground and it spun freely, turning the front driveshaft too, so that's good.
Got under the driver's side and found the tire had sunk down with the rocking around I had done. Jack won't fit underneath. I need a lower jack. I hope to find one of the lower army ones eventually, as if I get a flat on the road, I won't be able to get this jack underneath and often you can't dig a hole to slip it into. I used the jack without any plate and used it to squash the ground down a bit. Several rounds of this and I could get the jacking plate in and up we slowly went. I got the jack to full extension without lifting the tire clear, so dropped it and was able to get another packer in. Full extension again and still seemed to be sitting on the ground, until I realised I could run my hand under the tire. No way was the tire turning though. Here's the problem then.
I was able to back the brake adjuster off about 8 full turns and found the wheel now spun freely.
I got back in and had one last go at moving it. Now I could really get a good rock going, but not enough to pop it free. So close.
Now here's the silly part. I have been using 4wd vehicles in the bush for years, yet it never occurred to me to drop the tire pressures. Seems the manual shows you should drop from 60psi down to 30psi front and 26psi rear when on sand or mud. These are 20 ply tires and there is almost no weight on the back, so I don't know how much they will flatten out, but I'll try it tomorrow morning. If it isn't enough, I can jack both rear axles up and put a couple of sleepers under them. If I get any speed up I should be able to trundle around safely.

The worst thing is I messaged my sister and sent her a pic. She immediately sent it to all the kids in the Venturer group she runs and now I am getting offers from a smart-mouthed 15 year old girl to come pull me out with her jeep. If I'll come get her cos she only has her learners.

Going to be a long time before they let me forget this.  ::)

Greg.



Offline STDDIVER

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 570
  • THANKS 65
  • Location: Portland Vic
  • REMLR No: 482
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #174 on: July 28, 2017, 07:00:47 PM »
Good on you Greg!  Well done for having a go!   :D  I really enjoy this post!

Frank


Offline Chazza

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 569
  • THANKS 99
  • Location: Narrogin
  • REMLR No: 217
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #175 on: July 29, 2017, 09:58:26 AM »
Letting them down as low as 20 psi should be OK.

Good problem solving by the way – let us know how you get on,

Cheers Charlie
S2 Command Recce '59
S2A 109" GS '63
S2A Fire Truck '64

Offline Ravvin

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 586
  • THANKS 61
  • Location: Wesley Vale, Tasmania
  • REMLR No: 432
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #176 on: July 29, 2017, 01:42:08 PM »
Well it took 3 hours, but its out and parked on more even ground, ready to take the tray off.

We let the rears down to 26 psi, but they didn't squish out much, due to being 20 ply sidewalls and having no weight on the back. One of them was one of the original old-style 8 ply tires and it squashed down more, but it was on the side that wasn't spinning.

The front drivers side had sunk down about 8 inches, just sitting overnight. It didn't help that there was a slight rise in front of it. The dropped front took weight off the back passenger side, which is why it lost traction.
We slid a sleeper under the back axles and jacked them up. I put vehicle stands under them, let the jack down and used more packing until I had both wheels clear of the ground surface. We dug out the soil between the 2 wheel holes, as well as in front and behind, then put a pine sleeper in the hole. When I let the truck down, the tires were now just above ground level.

I had a go at driving it out, but the tires just spun on the timber. After trying to rock it forwards and backwards a bit, we realised it wasn't getting traction. The front driver's side had now sunk down to where the edge of the rim was at ground level. After digging a hole under the front to get the jack in, I jacked it up, or more accurately, I jacked the jack down into the ground. I was able to squash enough ground to get a board under the jack and got the wheel up enough to jamb some timber under it. Another packer under the jack, up again, and there was enough clearance to dig a recess big enough to get a short sleeper under there.
Another attempt at moving now had the other side spinning. The ground sloped up just in front of the driver's side tire, and it was just enough to cause the back to spin.

Ok, try backing up. We filled in the holes behind the wheels and grabbed all the wood offcuts to throw under the wheels. I tried going backwards and moved about 2 feet before it started spinning again. I figured I would rock it a bit and put it in first and gave it heaps. We shot forward at a slow crawl, and I realised I was still in Low 4, so stopped and put it in High 4. Roared back until it started spinning, then threw it into first. This time we really surged forwards. I felt a bump as the front wheels bounced out of the little hole it had started sinking into, but we were still moving, so I gave it heaps and away we went.

I'm really surprised at how slow first gear is. Is it mostly for starting off up hills or when loaded? I used to drive a Mitsubishi canter where first was only for slow crawling when loaded up. It was also nearly impossible to go from first to second or second to first while moving.
Damn, that steering box is low ratio. I was really surprised how many turns it took to slowly swing the truck around. Some muppet broke or lost the spring that pulls the seat adjusting lever in place, so they ran a couple of roofing screws through the adjuster channel to lock the seat in one place. Unfortunately, it meant I have to do contortions to get my legs under the steering wheel and my knees kept getting hit when I worked the clutch. Another issue is that I need to lose a lot of weight. These trucks were designed for skinny, physically fit army drivers. I don't meet any of those descriptors. I think I got a friction burn on my belly from spinning the steering wheel.

Another issue was that I have the cowling and the lower shroud off the engine so I could patch them up and repaint and soundproof them. I also had the passenger's side door tied open so I could see my sister on that side as she gave me directions. I also found that the muffler on it is home-made and has a big hole in it. All this meant that the whole time I was revving and roaring, trying to get unstuck, I was choking on stinky exhaust fumes. I was thinking of putting my spare muffler on, but decided that I'll take the new one off the MK3 as it is already painted with hi temp engine paint. The MK3 isn't going anywhere under it's own power, so it doesn't need an exhaust. Should make this one sound better too.

Oh, the handbrake works too. I found that out while rolling backwards down the paddock towards where I wanted to park. I found it's really hard to grab the handbrake lever when you are in reverse as the gearstick gets in the way.
Luckily, we kept nice and cool while working, 6° with showers. Just lovely.  ;D
I think I will get a couple of flat steel or aluminium plates to keep in the tool box to use as foot plates under the jack. I'll weld a loop to them that I can tie a short length of rope to, to make it easier to pull them out afterwards.

Greg.

Offline Chazza

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 569
  • THANKS 99
  • Location: Narrogin
  • REMLR No: 217
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #177 on: July 29, 2017, 07:30:27 PM »
...
I'm really surprised at how slow first gear is. Is it mostly for starting off up hills or when loaded? ...
Greg.

Yes. I used to start in second gear most of the time.

1st gear is awesome for steep hills, descending or ascending; crawling over rocks etc. and for showing off to your friends as you let it drive away in 1st low, whilst you stand next to it.  :D

Doing some weights for a week or two, is really helpful to cope with the steering as well,

Cheers Charlie
S2 Command Recce '59
S2A 109" GS '63
S2A Fire Truck '64

Offline Ravvin

  • REMLR Inc
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 586
  • THANKS 61
  • Location: Wesley Vale, Tasmania
  • REMLR No: 432
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #178 on: August 10, 2017, 01:35:04 PM »
Well, I picked up the steel to replace the rails under the truck today.



Its 150x75x6mm. Overkill, but I will never have to replace it.
The original stuff was 140x75, like an oversized C purlin. It measured at about 2.5mm thick, but had rusted through in many places. The other issue is that it had squashed badly in a few places where the tray cross-members sat, so I think they must have had some heavy loads on it, on bumpy roads, at some point.

The only issue I will have is that the crossmembers bolt through the rail, so I need some way to get a bolt down inside the rail and then up through the hole. I might sacrifice a cheap spanner, cut one end off and weld it to a piece of 1" box tube, and put a tack in the spanner hole so the bolts can't drop through. I then sit the bolt in the spanner, feed it down the rail and pop it up through the rail and cross-member while someone puts on the washer and nut.
The rail is 3.6m long, so I only need to reach in 1.8m from each end, at the most. I just need to make sure the holes really line up well.
Hopefully I will get the tray off this weekend.

Greg.

Offline dugite

  • REMLR Committee
  • Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 1083
  • THANKS 103
  • Location: Tamworth
  • REMLR No: 374
Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #179 on: August 10, 2017, 01:46:15 PM »
I sure enjoy following this thread - you certainly are a thinkin' man Greg
2a 109 114-341,
No.5 173-589,
W/S Platform 178-000,
PT1 204-796