Author Topic: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck  (Read 53591 times)

Offline Diana Alan

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #225 on: October 13, 2017, 07:39:09 PM »
Penrite make a Mild EP oil specifically for gearboxes with yellow metals.  The big problem (or was) is that they stopped selling it in 5 litre bottles and you had to get it in 1 litre bottles.
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Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #226 on: October 13, 2017, 08:10:48 PM »
Castrol TFC 450 is safe to use for the gearbox, transfer case and winch.
It meets the specs for OMD 330 and I know for a fact that Restless Rover used it in his 4 trucks for many years with no issues.
The product data sheet states that it is safe on copper based alloys such as bushes and seals.

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Offline Bluebell One-eight

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #227 on: October 13, 2017, 09:02:47 PM »
HI Greg I think you will find that the hot water will make a big difference in removing the grime. Have you removed the pin that secures the sprocket to the worm shaft? If the sprocket has rotated it could mean the pin is partly sheared, which really complicates things. Try driving it out if you can get a punch in there. The amount destruction is unbelievable. good luck 

Offline john.k

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #228 on: October 14, 2017, 12:49:35 AM »
The sprocket is keyed on,Ive not long had the sprocket off my big Leyland,which has a 6x6 winch without the dropbox.Its chain driven from a hydraulic motor.It breaks 5/8 wire with the motor idling,without any effect on the winch.  Which make me wonder what has happened to yours.It looks as though the key has sheared and the sprocket spun on the worm.Which has probably welded the two together.And broken the gear.It seems impossible,because 5/8 wire breaks at about 15 ton,and the winch is rated at 10,and easily able to take double that with 3/4 wire rope......Incidentally,I pulled the sprocket to replace a leaking seal,nothing more.

Offline Chazza

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #229 on: October 14, 2017, 09:57:53 AM »
Have you tried whacking the head of the puller-bolt with a heavy hammer when it is under tension? This will often allow tight parts to start moving.

However; I suspect that when the bolt broke, a sharp point remained and it has scored a groove inside the sprocket, this means that you are trying to pull the bolt end through solid steel. Perhaps your best chance, is to keep trying to realign the sprocket with the broken thread and then use a left-hand twist drill to try and unwind it; or use a RH twist drill and try to cut off any metal sitting above the shaft.

Good luck; I have been in similar fixes and managed to get out of them eventually,

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Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #230 on: October 14, 2017, 11:31:03 AM »
Thanks all, for the suggestions.

Its not exactly a pin. It looks like a bolt that has had most of the thread machined off, leaving just enough to hold it in the sprocket collar. Probably similar to the shear pins from the MK3's but without the pinched waist.
The hole doesn't go right through the collar. It probably goes right through the shaft, but the broken bit can't be tapped through until I get the sprocket off. I am thinking that when it sheared, a bit was still sticking up and has gouged a groove around the inside of the collar, stopping it slipping off the shaft.
The sprocket is not keyed on the shaft. Its the exact same shaft as in the MK3 winches, with a woodruff key on the end with the brake wheel, and a hole through the shaft on the other end that the sprocket fits onto. Imagine the shaft, brake wheel and drive flange (sprocket in this case) from the MK3 but pulled out and put in the other way round.
The brake wheel is facing the front of the truck and the drive flange/chain drive sprocket is at the back.
I just got home and got some chilli plants planted, so will go work on the winch now. Really windy today, which makes heating things tricky.
I'll try giving the puller bolt a good whack and see what happens. I left it under tension last night but the truck fairies didn't come along and pop it off for me.  ;D

Greg.

Offline john.k

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #231 on: October 14, 2017, 01:16:52 PM »
Sorry for the misinformation.Its 25 years since I fitted the winch to the tilt tray,but I do clearly remember cutting the keyway in the sprocket and driving it on.I also think I must have rearranged the ball bearings on the worm for thrust the opposite way.So I may have cut a keyway in the wormshaft at the same time.The plain shaft with a 3/8" thru hole is certainly standard Garwood practice.The Mk3 had a small hole in the opposite side to drive out a broken pin with a punch.Most drilled the flange thru and used a HT bolt.These Olding winches were also used in large numbers by the various electricity authorities,often mounted on Bedfords 4x4s or 1600 Inters. I saw one on a float once where the wire had bitten into the drum like a choked chicken from continuous overloading. I used to sell every one i could lay my hands on for tiltrays.A far better winch than any other in the same class.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #232 on: October 14, 2017, 02:47:10 PM »
Ok I've had enough of this thing for the day.
I'm not getting anywhere. I had the puller loaded up as far as I could go with the 1/2" breaker bar.
I heated the collar as evenly as I could with the oxy, I belted the end of the puller with the big hammer and nothing budged.
I put the brake wheel back on and tried to turn the sprocket back to align the hole with the broken pin but I can't get any load on the brake wheel end. There's nothing to grip. I put 2 fat bolts through the spokes of the wheel and put a bar through them but it just slips.

Finally, I put a length of pipe on the breaker bar. All that did was stretch the holes in the metal straps that link the arms to the puller body until one tore through.
I switched the straps off my smaller but stronger puller and cranked it right up, but finally it sheared the main threaded rod.



I don't think I could get a bigger puller in between the sprocket teeth and the sides of the housings.
I took the bolts out that hold the chain box to the main housing so I could get a clear look at the hole and shaft. It looks good. The threads are fine. I can see the shaft and there are a couple of minor score lines on it where the end of the pin was touching, but no sign of any deep gouges from a protruding broken pin.
I'm out of ideas. I'll take it to work Monday and see if the guys there have any suggestions.

I know when I get the damn thing out, the first thing I will do is drill right through the collar so I can put a bolt right through. That way it should take twice the amount of force to shear and I should be able to drive any pin bits out.

Greg.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #233 on: October 17, 2017, 07:37:43 PM »
Ha! I beat it.



I was just about asleep Sunday night and realised I was doing it all wrong.
Instead of trying to pull on the sprocket off the shaft, I should be pushing the shaft out of the sprocket.

Yesterday I got home and removed the 4 bolts that hold the chain box to the winch housing.
That gave me room to get a big screwdriver in and pop the seal out. Well, lever it out, piece by piece.
I was then able to get in there and remove the big circlip that holds the bearings in place. Then I ran out of light.

This afternoon I used a wooden block and a 4lb hammer on the brake end of the shaft to drive the whole worm shaft and beatings out through the chain drive end.
This went pretty quickly, until I had to try to line up the far end bearing with the front end hole, while tapping on the shaft to get it started.
On the second tap, the bearing separated, ball bearings rolling all over the place. Oh well. It made it easy to get the shaft out.

I gave the worm shaft, bearings and the sprocket on the end a good degrease to make it easier to handle. I put it in the press with the press plates under the top bearing. I would have liked to have them pushing directly on the back of the sprocket collar, but the gap between the collar and bearing was too narrow.
I was able to find an impact socket just a tiny bit smaller than the hole in the sprocket so I used it to press the shaft out. I was a bit worried when the gauge on the press showed 17 tonnes, but with a bit of heat on the collar, it finally started moving. That press has turned out to be one of my most useful buys yet.

With the sprocket and one bearing off, I flipped the worm shaft and quickly pressed off the inner race of the other bearing. I fitted the steel balls back in the race and put the bearing back together. I wrapped it in a rag and used my block of wood and hammer and smacked it back into place. It feels a bit rumbly when I spin it, but so does the other one. I'll look into getting new ones, but from memory they were ridiculously expensive when I looked at getting them for the MK3 winch.
I'll find out tomorrow. I can always use the ones from the other winch.

With the sprocket off, the other half of the shear pin fell out of the hole through the shaft.



I'll have to machine up a new one. I think I'll have to make it from a socket head bolt as if I use a normal bolt, the head will be too large and I won't be able to get a socket on it as there is only a small gap between the bolt head and the back of the chain box. If you look at the pic above, you can see the head is much smaller than you usually see on bolts this diameter.
With everything apart, I gave everything a final clean up and got some pics. As it is all shiny silver, it's hard to get the camera to focus properly and the flash washes out some of the finer detail.



You can see where the metal has been smeared when the bolt sheared. You can also see the marks where the burrs inside the sprocket collar scraped the shaft when it came off.
I think it will clean up ok. I'll put it in the lathe and take a really light skim across it to remove the raised bits. A bit of a clean up with emery paper and it should be fine.



This pic is a bit rough. You can see the damage though. As with the shaft, I'll give it a light skim on the lathe to take the burrs off. I'll see what sizes are available in speedi-sleeves, as I could slip one over the worm shaft to take up any slop due to the machining.
I'll also drill right through the sprocket collar so the shear pin can go right through. This doubles the area that it has to shear and will make it easy to get the broken bit out.

I'll do some cleaning up and repainting while the weather stays fine. I still have to replace the air lines that run to the tractor protection valve and clean and repaint the chassis rails before I can refit the winch, so there's no great rush just now.

I'll post some more pics once I get some work done.

Greg.

Offline john.k

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #234 on: October 17, 2017, 10:28:42 PM »
The sprocket has spun and friction welded to the shaft.The weld is very hard,hence the scoring.Probably even carbide tooling wont clean up the melted part.Needs abrasive,oilstone,careful use of a sanding disc is effective,too.Is the brake end the same dia as the drive end.Mine must drive on the brake end.How much are you going to use the winch? Thrust ball bearings are very dear,because they are made to a very high precision so they can be paired.Ive run my press up to max,about 60 tons removing spun ball bearings from shafts,they break free with a bang,then wreck the shaft coming off.If the bearing is cut off with an abrasive disc,no damage save a tiny ring of weld.

Offline Chazza

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #235 on: October 18, 2017, 09:23:52 AM »
I would resist the temptation to turn it on the lathe as well and do as John says.

Loctite Shaft & Bearing Mount will fill all the score marks and glue the thing back together again.

Well done on getting it apart! Reminds me of when I was trying to press a water pump apart and at 5 tonnes realised I was pressing the wrong way  ::)

Cheers Charlie
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Offline Mick_Marsh

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Shear Pins
« Reply #236 on: October 18, 2017, 03:27:20 PM »
I made some shear pins up some time ago.
I've been selling them 3 for $50.
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Offline Ravvin

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Re: Shear Pins
« Reply #237 on: October 18, 2017, 06:23:44 PM »
I made some shear pins up some time ago.
I've been selling them 3 for $50.

Yeah, I know.
I bought 3 remember? :)

These are different. They are supposed to be straight sided and I don't think they are supposed to shear.
In fact, if they do shear, its a right pain to replace them. You have to remove the chain box cover. 18 bolts. You will need a new gasket too.
Then you need to remove the drive chain. Then get the old pin unscrewed and hope you can get the sprocket off without removing the entire winch and then the worm drive. Only then can you get at the other side of the hole through the shaft to drive the broken bit out.

The engine cut out system is supposed to eliminate the need for the shear pins, it's just I think mine has a break in the wiring somewhere.

Another way these pins are different is they have a very small head considering the size of the threaded bit. Not like a regular bolt. These are 5/8" across the flats and the thread seems to be 1/2" UNF. It is 1-11/16" long from the thread to the tip, but the ones I make will go right through the sprocket collar, once I drill the other side through. Double the shear area and easier to tap a broken pin out.
I think these pins may have been turned from a length of 5/8" hexagonal bar. If the head was any bigger, you couldn't get a socket on it as it is very close to the back wall of the chain box.

I ordered replacement bearings today. The ones I took out are really loose and noisy. If anyone ever needs them, ask for 7309 Thrust bearings. Not cheap at $55 each, but they are FAG brand, not the cheaper chinese versions. They should get here Friday.
I will pull the other shaft out of the chain box and check those bearings too. I already have the new seal. The replacement bearings are in stock, if I need them. They are a standard 6207 and a 6207NR, which is the same but has a groove around the outside for a circlip to fit into.

Greg.

Offline john.k

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #238 on: October 24, 2017, 09:44:57 PM »
A bit of damage to the winch is preferable to a chassis like a banana.here and there on this form replacement chassis are mentioned.I bet a weeks pay that winch damage was the cause.On the bare drum you can get about twice the cable tension to pulling on a full drum.Twice the load on the chassis if you pull through to the front of the truck ,as is the normal travel setup.Wasnt restricted to accos either,Ive seen a WW2 Diamond T prime mover with the chassis spread by the winch cable.,and the Kaiser tow truck in my yard had chassis damage and a busted winch/bottom blown out of the gearcase.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #239 on: November 01, 2017, 06:47:24 PM »
Yep, the truck I looked at in Hobart back when I first got the MK3 had a badly twisted chassis rail on the passenger side, just between the transfer case and winch. I'm betting that was winch-related.

I haven't posted anything in a while, as I have just been doing boring stuff like cleaning and painting.
I got new thrust bearings for the main winch worm shaft and also a pair for the chain drive box. I started putting the chain drive back together but ran into a problem.
The regular guy at the bearing place was busy so I got served by another guy. I hadn't removed the seal from the input flange on the chain case, but I had the measurements from the manual.
The seal I needed measured 2" x 3.006" x 1/2". They didn't have anything in stock and he said it was an odd size that he would have to look up and order.
A few days later he called and said it was in. I picked it up and it was a National seal, #410085. Steel cased, double lipped.
I pressed it into the housing, which didn't take much effort, and then made up a new gasket and refitted the housing and seal to the chain drive housing, with a good coat of Loctite gasket goop.
Once it was dry, I fitted a Speedi-sleeve to the drive flange, as it was pitted where the old seal had sat. I refitted the flange on the spline and then realised that when I turned it, the seal was turning in the housing.
I removed the flange and found I could turn the seal all the way around, so the housing wasn't out of shape, the seal was just too small. I was even able to work it right out of the housing by turning it while lifting.
I measured the seal and it was 3.002". I looked up the part number and it agreed.
I can't measure the inside of the housing unless I remove it from the chain drive box, which means I have to make a new gasket and clean all the goop off. I measured the old seal, which was a GACO MI 1933001/2, and although it was a bit distorted due to me levering it out, it measured 3.008".
There was a thin layer of aluminium oxide on the outside, but I never had to do more than spray the inside of the housing with degreaser and wipe it clean with a rag. When I sandblasted the outside, I protected the inside with a double layer of painters masking tape. The sand never got through.
Would getting a seal with the diameter of 3.006" really make much of a difference over the 3.0002" seal? What do you all suggest? One of the guys at work thought that the small difference in diameter probably wouldn't be enough and said to get some Loctite Bearing and Shaft Retainer. He also suggested staking the edges of the housing to stop it turning, but the housing is pretty thin cast aluminium and I am worried it might crack or distort.
The oil level in the case is well below the seal level. The seal is to keep grease in and grit out of the bearings on the input shaft. The original bearings were open. The ones I replaced them with are different. The rear one is rubber sealed and the front one, with the circlip around it, has a steel shield on the back and is open on the front. I packed the front bearing and the gap between the front and rear one with wheel bearing grease. I also filled the cavity between the front bearing and the seal, but had to scoop it all out and wipe it clean when I removed the seal again.

On another subject, I tried filing the raised ridge on the worm shaft, where the broken shear pin allowed it to spin in the sprocket until it welded itself. The file just slides over it without making a mark. The area where the seal runs is also pretty pitted, both ends of the shaft. I dug the shaft out from the MK3 winch and gave it a clean up and it is much better, so I will use it and keep the other for a spare.
Today, I took the sprocket over to an old guy who lives across from work. One of the guys at work said he used to do some lathe work in his spare time.
His wife didn't want him to talk to me, but he heard me talking about the lathe and came out to see what was going on. As soon as we started talking she gave up, threw her hands in the air and wandered off. I think this is a common act for them. :)
It turns out he is now over 80 and is having a real problem with macular degeneration, and is finding it almost impossible to use his lathe and other gear. He got all excited at the chance of helping me out and we ended up in his shed, which is a converted double garage. I think he must be a retired engineer. Tools everywhere, but a set place for everything. Spotless, rust-free and he knew where every single thing was.

He set the sprocket up in the lathe and got it running true. He was worried that if he took a skim off the inside that it would be loose on the shaft. He also didn't think much of the design of the sprocket, with just a lock pin that didn't even go right through. He really wanted to cut a keyway in the sprocket and shaft, but didn't have the gear anymore. :)
It ended up taking 3 passes with a heavy boring bar to remove enough of the ridge in the sprocket for a 1-1'2" plug to be tapped through. The ridge was really hard.
Next he wanted to do something about a better locking system, so we drilled a hole through the collar and tapped it to 3/8" BSW, as he had lock screws in that size.



As you can see, we tried drilling right through so we could have opposing lock screws. It wasn't going to happen. We rounded off 2 drill bits trying to get through that hardened skin on the far side.
He suggested I fit the sprocket on the shaft, lock it up with the original shear pin and drill a dimple in the shaft for the lock screw to seat into. I'm not sure if that will be possible as I couldn't mark the old shaft with a file.

With that all done, which took close to an hour, he wouldn't accept any payment, so I will have to find something else to give him.
There's a lot of technical know-how and skill going to be lost when he passes, and I don't think people coming up through the engineering fields these days will compare.
Jobs these days require people to narrow their fields of expertise, to be a specialist, and they miss out on a lot of skills that you pick up with the cross-training you get from having to work out how to get something done when faced with an out of the ordinary problem.

Ok, enough for now. I'll post up more once I get something worth mentioning done.

Greg.