Author Topic: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck  (Read 69447 times)

Offline Chazza

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #210 on: September 10, 2017, 07:35:11 PM »
By jingo you are getting on with it  :D!

I think the gearbox, transfer box and winch may have had OMD600 in them, which I think may be similar to EP90, the stinky stuff! What does the lubrication plate on the dash say?

I haven't had knee replacements yet, but but when they get painful I lubricate them with 100% emu oil, it cures any inflammation and I think it works on my arthritic neck as well when I drink about 10ml of it. Lot cheaper than new knees, so worth a try first. Speaking of expense, don't waste money at a GP until after you have been to a good physiotherapist, they know heaps more than a GP and they will do a decent diagnosis for you as well. The GP is needed for referral to a specialist what a rort!

Looks like good news for the guts on the winch  :D

Cheers Charlie
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Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #211 on: September 11, 2017, 08:30:53 AM »
The gearbox, transfer case and winch all use OMD-330, which my drum of Castrol TFC-450 will cover nicely.
The axles, power dividers and steering box all use OEP-600, which is thick smelly stuff.



As for my knees, I rubbed loads of Rapigel into them last night and they are pretty good this morning, unless I twist around or bend them sideways. I'll be spending tomorrow and Wednesday scrambling around in the bush looking at rock formations on a Geology for Foresters course, so will see how they hold up.

Greg.

Offline johnp

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #212 on: September 11, 2017, 10:27:51 AM »
Good on you Greg,you are steadily ploughing your way through all these jobs.
I havent had much time to get back on to mine lately but am still lookjng forward to getting in to it,im 58 and my knees dont stand up to entry and exiting inter cabs that well either the design calls more for 20 yr old superfit young blokes.
I dread the thought (at my age) of having to leap out of the "doorless" inters in an emergency like they did in Vietnam,i would probably end up in traction in hospital!


Cheers   John

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #213 on: September 24, 2017, 06:33:20 PM »
The weather has been terrible lately. I haven't been able to do much at all.
I got a pack of 1/8" BSP grease nipples in the post, so switched out most of the ones I could get at with the hoist folded up.
I'll do the rest when the weather is fine enough to lift the winch out.
I found that 2 of the ones I removed were actually the wrong thread, and were only just screwed in a couple of turns.
Most of the ones I replaced had actually let grease squirt back out, so at $15 for 10, it's a cheap fix.
I also got a new pressure gauge for the hydraulic system.



I tried polishing the old one with 1500 grit wet & dry to see if it was recoverable, but it is some sort of plastic and had yellowed right through.
The needle is sitting on 500 psi, even with the gauge disconnected. The new gauge was only $50 and is oil filled with a glass front.
I will make up a cap from a pvc plumbing fitting to cover and protect it.

Greg.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #214 on: October 01, 2017, 03:48:49 PM »
I got the winch out this morning.



I looped the tree protector strop out of my recovery kit around the cable drum a couple of times and it lifted straight out, no problem at all.
I removed the split pin and castle nut off the end of the main shaft, just in case that would help free it up.
I tried to remove the big bolts holding the 2 side rails to the winch body and end frame, but even with the breaker bar and length of pipe for extra leverage, I couldn't get them to budge.
Time for the big guns!



The torque multiplier soon broke them free. With the side rails removed, I was able to rotate the end frame left and right about an inch, but that was all.
From the feel of it, I was rotating the end frame and the main shaft. I realised that the end frame was seized on the shaft, even though there was a brass bush in there.
I was able to force some grease in, but it took a lot of pressure. I remember from the winch off the MK3 that the brass bush has a spiral groove running around the inside face, so the grease gets spread around.
I don't think this has been greased in a long time, and the old grease has dried out and hardened.
When I pulled the other winch apart, I had to lift the whole winch up, support it from underneath and move my hydraulic press over it.
With a few bits of steel to lock it under the press, I was able to push the main shaft out of the aluminium end frame. The brass bush stayed on the steel shaft.
I heated the bush up with the LPG/Oxy set and loads of smoke came out as the old grease melted and burnt, then it just fell off.
It was just the old grease sticking it to the shaft. I'm betting it is the same thing with this one.



After work one day during the week, I will drag the oxy gear out into the paddock and try heating the bush up.
If that doesn't work, I'll have to try and get the press out there.

With the end frame off, I should be able to use the crane to lift the cable drum off the shaft.
Even though there were no metal shavings in the gear oil, I think either the worm shaft or drive gear is damaged.
I am able to turn the input shaft and the drum starts to turn, maybe an inch or so, then seems to slip and then start turning backwards about the same distance,
before doing the same thing again. This is with the dog clutch in the engaged position.
With all the smacking around with the lead shot hammer it got, the engage/disengage yoke seems to have freed up a bit.
I was able to move the actuating arm to the disengaged position.
I still can't easily turn the drum though. Even belting the end frame with the lead hammer only turns it an inch or so.
Once I get the end frame and cable drum off, I can undo the bolts on the worm drive gear and remove it from the shaft, then remove the shaft from the main box.

The main problem is that everything is so heavy. If I could get it down to the house the press is right there and the workbench puts everything at a good height to work on.
I was going to put it in the back of the ute and work on it there, but I need the ute empty for work tomorrow.
The crane on the truck is the only way I can lift it, as I estimate the winch, cable and chain drive box must be around 300kg.
If I drive it down to the house, I can't get it out of the ute without rolling it off the side. If I got it off, I couldn't get it up on the workbench anyway.
Oh well, smaller pieces will make it easier to handle.

On another topic, with the winch out, I was able to get at the 2 rusted-through air pipes that run down to the tractor protection valve.
The way they shaped them forces the pipes to push down against the bottom of the chassis rail. This area was a solid layer of dried mud, so I'm not surprised that they rusted through.
I noticed that on the passenger's side, the main brake line that runs to the back wheels is shaped the same and is also very rusty.
I'll replace it while it's easy to get at, with the coated stuff I used for the other brake pipes.

While playing with the crane today, I was able to replace the last 3 grease nipples that I couldn't get at last time.
I gave all of them a good grease and found one down in the frame base that I hadn't noticed before.
It's a right-angled one and is blocked solid. I'll pull it out and soak it in turps for a few days and see if it frees up.
I also noticed that the new pressure gauge isn't working. No matter what I do with the controls, it doesn't twitch off 0.
I'll have to pull the box below it apart and check it out. There is some sort of pressure overload sensor in there that works like the winch overload and cuts the engine.
I wonder if that is where the odd switch came from that I found rolling around under the driver's seat?

I must have climbed in and out of the truck over a dozen times this morning. Now my knees are locking up when I move after sitting a while. Fun.
I'll post up more pics as I get things apart.

Greg.

Edit. Oh just remembered. I ran the truck with the main gearbox in neutral today, and the hydraulic pump worked fine, so it is powered from the input side of the box, not the output. Thanks to Bruce, wfc1, for that tip.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 03:52:12 PM by Ravvin »

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #215 on: October 04, 2017, 06:04:14 PM »
I got a bit done this afternoon.
Got home and dug out the oxy gear and dragged it out into the paddock.
I kept the heat on the aluminium section around the brass bush, trying to heat that area and not the steel shaft. Didn't really work, but the old dried grease started smoking and bubbling pretty quickly.
While heating, I tapped the end frame left and right with the lead hammer and it quickly loosened up. Once it felt really loose, I grabbed the ends of the frame with some heavy rags and lifted while twisting. It slowly lifted off.



As you can see, the brass bush is in pretty good condition. Most of that discolouration you can see is the old dried grease.
The shaft is still pretty good. Once it has cooled I will see what that black section is. I suspect it is more dried grease, because if it was rust, it would have scored the softer metal of the bush as I twisted it around and lifted it off.
Once it is all repaired, primed and painted, I will give the inside of the bush a light hone and polish with fine wet & dry.

I tried turning the cable drum on the shaft, but I couldn't get it to move. There is almost nothing to get hold of and the edges are rusty and sharp. The drum also has a brass bush in it where it runs on the shaft.
I gave it a wipe over and heated it a bit too. The grease bubbled and squirted out straight away, so I think it will come off ok. I will see if I can borrow the big hydraulic 3 arm puller from the guys next door at work. The other option is to wrap the strops around it and try lifting it off with the crane.
With a bit of luck and good weather, I might have it all apart this weekend. I have to mow also. The grass around the truck is up to my knees. Roundup is easier, quicker and longer lasting, but I don't think the landlord would approve. Oh well.

Greg.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #216 on: October 08, 2017, 05:37:28 PM »
Lots of pics in today's post.  :)

The weather isn't the best, with light scattered showers, but it held off just long enough. I cleaned the dried grease off the end of the winch shaft, then polished the rust away with some wet & dry.
I wiped a smear of grease over the exposed metal and wrapped the lifting strop around the cable drum.
I was going to lift the whole thing onto the back of the ute, to keep it all out of the grass and put it at a convenient height to work on.



Didn't quite make it.
I got it to the height that you see in the pic, and the thing came apart all on its own. Landed neatly and nothing was damaged.
The cable drum got put out of the way for now. I forgot to take a pic of the dog clutch end of the drum, but there wasn't a mark on it. The engagement blocks are in perfect condition, with no burrs or chips.

I re-rigged the strop around the winch housing and put it on the back of the ute for further inspection. The crane makes it so easy.



Ok, think I can see the problem.  :o
After I drove the actuator rod out, I should have been able to lift the dog clutch and actuator yoke off the spline on the winch shaft, but it wouldn't move.
I tried using 2 tire levers to pop it off the spline, but it popped the entire shaft out. That works for me.



The busted worm gear chewed on the inside of the housing a bit, but not too deep. I'll give it a bit of a clean-up so no aluminium shavings come off later, once it's rebuilt. There isn't a single mark, chip or scratch on the worm shaft.
I cleaned the pieces of the worm gear up and took the pics below.



One of the bolts sheared and another was very bent. The rest are good, but the brass/bronze has stretched and torn away around them.
The second pic shows the back of the worm gear spider. The bolt holes are all stretched out of shape. It took a hell of a lot of force to do this damage.
I'm glad the cable was out the back and not wrapped around to the front, as it would have really twisted things up. I can see why it was able to spread the thick steel plates of the rear fairlead assembly when it pulled the thimble into the pulleys.
This tells me that the overload system is definitely not working. I'll pull the chain drive box apart and give the whole thing a full overhaul.



I had to tap the dog clutch off the spline. It was stuck pretty tightly. After cleaning everything up, it looks like the spline segments in the sliding clutch part are actually twisted.
I can slide it onto the shaft and it starts easily enough, but only engages about 2cm of the spline before locking up. I turned it over and it only goes on about half a cm before binding.
You can't really see the damage in the pic. I suppose the huge force put on the clutch drive system when they overloaded it must have twisted the spline in the sliding bit.
Luckily, I checked the one out of the MK3 and it slides smoothly on the shaft/spline, so I can use that.

I'll pull the chain drive unit apart during the week and give the whole winch housing a good clean up.
Modern seals all round, some fresh paint and a new felt strip where the cable drum seals against the main housing and it will be ready to go back together.
I'll have to check the overload mechanism, but it may be a wiring issue between the winch and the cab. I don't have a wiring diagram showing the winch overload system, but it should be easy enough to trace.

I'll post more as things get done.

Greg.


Offline Chazza

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #217 on: October 09, 2017, 09:17:20 AM »
Good work cobber!

Shame about the broken parts can you get replacement bits?

Cheers Charlie
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Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #218 on: October 09, 2017, 11:27:58 AM »
I have the winch from the MK3 in pieces and cleaned up that I can use for spares.
I'll use the brass/bronze gear, the spider that bolts into it and the sliding clutch part.
I just ordered the replacement seals and found a company still selling the micro switch that activates the overload protection system, so I can replace that if it turns out to be broken. Apparently it can be adjusted, as in preload, so it may be ok, just not set up properly.

The main housing, worm drive and chain drive unit are still assembled and in the back of the work ute. I have to work out how to get it out and around the back to the work bench after work today. First thing will be a heavy duty degreasing, after I pull the brake band out. Years of oil and dirt are caked on the outside. I'll scrape off what I can and give the whole thing a spray with diesel. That seems to soften it up.

I'll post updates and pics as I go.

Greg.

Offline Bluebell One-eight

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #219 on: October 09, 2017, 06:20:32 PM »
Hi Greg the first thing to check is the switch these were notorious for failing. The ingress of fine dust and water corroded the internals and no more protection. Also check and see if the brass worm wheel is the same as the MK3, the winch drive has the opposite rotation because it is turned around the "other way " when compared to the MK3. The RPS should set the record straight on this one. Keep up the good work.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #220 on: October 09, 2017, 08:11:56 PM »
I pulled the cover off the brake band box this afternoon and gave it a squirt of penetrant into the keyway, to help loosen it up on the spline. I remember the one on the MK3 winch was a real pain to get off.
The brake band is in really good condition, so I need to keep oil and stuff off it. There is a sort of locating sleeve that is attached to it that goes through the housing. The bolt you turn to adjust the drag goes through it.
I got the circlip off but its seized in the housing. I gave it a squirt too, so hopefully I can get it out tomorrow.

You mention dust and water corroding the switch. Isn't the chain box filled with oil? It has a drain bung at the bottom and when I had it laid over in the ute, I definitely had oil leak out of the breather, which was the lowest point.
I suppose oil from the main box could have seeped past the seal between the main box and chain box. New seals will fix that.

I have the old shattered gear wheel at work, so can't visually compare it to the one off the MK3. I looked it up in the MK4 RPS and also the F1 RPS and they show different manufacturer codes and part numbers, but list them both as "Gear, worm wheel, RH". I looked up the manufacturer codes, just in case. The one for the MK4 was Z0218, Olding GH & Sons. The one from the F1 was 61465, which is Garwood/Feller. I'd say the companies merged or got bought out at some point.
When I tried looking up the actual NSN numbers, the one for the F1, 3020-00-217-9772, came up as still available. The NSN from the MK4 RPS, 3830-00-217-9772, doesn't exist but is almost identical to the newer F1 code. I believe it is a typo as 3020 means Gears, Sprockets, Pulleys & Transmission Chain and 3830 is Truck & Tractor Attachments.
What I should have done first off is look at the damn worm shaft, as it turns out it has the exact same manufacturer code, NSN and part number in both RPS's, so I should be good.  ;D

Actually, both winches turn the same way. The MK3/4 is driven from the front and sits further towards the back axle. The winch on the 6x6 variants is driven from the back via the chain box, but both the prop shaft and worm shaft both spin the same direction. It sits right up close to the transfer case to make room for the extra axle.

Greg.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #221 on: October 10, 2017, 06:53:13 PM »
I managed to get the brake band out and got the brake wheel off, after a bit of a struggle. There's not much room between the wheel and the housing for the arms of the puller to get into. When I got the brake box off, I found signs that the old seal behind it had been leaking. I have new seals from when I was going to rebuild the MK3 winch, so I won't need to wait on those.

I took the cover off the chain box and found there is oil in it.



You can just make out the level of it on the back of the plate. I estimate it to hold about two cups of oil.
I went through the F1 User Handbook and finally found it uses OMD 110, so basically engine oil. I'll have to make a new gasket for it.



As you can see, there seems to be a fair bit of slack in the chain. I think its a bit stretched, as some of the links are a bit stiff when they come off the sprockets, but there were no shavings and the oil was clear.

I'm going to pull the input flange off and replace the oil seal, but I'll leave the lower sprocket and torque assembly behind it. There doesn't seem to be any play or roughness in the bearings.
I'll slip the top sprocket off tomorrow and see if I can unbolt the chain box from the winch housing. They are big socket head bolts, which was a surprise. Seems a bit modern for this old winch.  ;D

I opened the cover over the overload switch and found it was clean and dry. No sign of there ever being moisture or dust in there. I checked the micro switch with the multimeter and it works. Looks like the issue is in the wiring between the winch and whatever cuts out the engine, so I'll have to trace it back.

Greg.

Offline Bluebell One-eight

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #222 on: October 11, 2017, 10:46:49 PM »
Hi Greg looks like a wiring problem, check that any earth connections are intact too. The Garwood Olding  situation came about because of the local content rules that were in place when the trucks were built. Garwood was an overseas mob ( US ) I think and Oldings made the winches here under license. On the subject of rotation, the winches turn in opposite directions because the winch in  6 X 6 is turned around. If you look at a vehicle that is moving forward from the R/H side the wheels rotate CLOCKWISE, and if you turn it around and look from the left side the wheels rotate ANTICLOCKWISE. In a virtual sense you are driving the worm shaft from the opposite end. If you look at the winch brake housing you will find that there are two holes for the brake adjuster bolt. One hole is for the 6x6 and the one on the opposite side for 4x4. This is because the the brake band is applied by the rotation of the worm shaft. If you install the brake band the wrong way then the lining will get burnt when the cable is being winched in.

Offline john.k

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #223 on: October 13, 2017, 03:57:06 PM »
Garfield A Wood was a famous speedboat racer and industrialist of the 20th century.The winches came from the Mead Morrison divn ,of Boston,which was bought in the 30s.During WW2 they made millions of winches for trucks, tractors ,ships etc.G.H.Olding and Son were Australian agents for both the winches and the sweepers.The Olding winches in the ACCOs were good winches,and Ive seldom seen one damaged,unless it was filled with water and run without oil.Incidentally,NEVER us any kind of EP oil in a bronze gear winch,it will wreck the gear.Theres winch bits ,including gears and ropes in the containers at my other yard,but my knees are so bad,I cant look thru the stuff.Regards John.  ............Incidentally,I have seen a few variations in construction,some had the mainshaft splined at the gear mount. ,and the worm can also be separate from the shaft,with a similar involute spline.I ve have used the mainshafts for big bits of good steel,theyre fairly soft and machine easily.Possibly 4140 HT.

Offline Ravvin

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Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
« Reply #224 on: October 13, 2017, 05:15:39 PM »
Thanks all.
The dramas continue. I took the chain off this afternoon, with the aim of removing the sprocket that is on the end of the winch worm shaft.
I was able to get a socket on the bolt head that goes through the collar of the sprocket and into the main shaft, and it screwed out easily. Unfortunately.



As you can see, it has sheared off, just down below the last thread.
The problem is, the sprocket has slipped about 1/8th of a turn on the shaft. You can see the smeared metal on the end of the bolt where it has been rubbing on the shaft.
I put the brake wheel back on the other end of the shaft and locked it up, but I can't rotate the sprocket to line up the hole with the snapped bolt. I can't move it at all.



As the removed bolt seems to have been running on the shaft, I can't understand why the damn sprocket wont come off the shaft.
I have the puller wound up so tight that I am worried I will snap the pivot bolt in my 1/2" breaker bar or split the socket on the head of the 3 arm puller.
I left it loaded up and will pull out the oxy gear in the morning and try heating the collar a bit and see if it lets go.
Another option might be to pull the 4 bolts out that hold the chain box housing to the winch body and try making up something to fit in the gap that I could suspend the whole thing from if I put it in the press.
The collar fits through the hole in the chain box and the back face of the sprocket would lay flat against the back of the chain box, but it will be really difficult to get the whole thing in the press in a way that the pressure is applied evenly.
The last thing I need is to crack the back out of the box.

On another topic, I have a new toy to fix up and play with.



I have to get a new pressure gauge and a maybe a rebuild kit for the pressure washer head, but this thing should help make short work of the caked on grease and grime on the truck.
I found a manual online and it can produce 80 water at 2600 psi at the nozzle, or steam at 130 if I get a different spear and tip. It runs on 240v and diesel for the burner. Should be fun if it doesn't explode.

Greg.