Author Topic: A bit confused ....  (Read 11903 times)

Offline Diana Alan

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2014, 12:33:50 PM »
OK, so there is positive ID in Aust for both vehs, but Taylor obviously has evidence that they were RTUK - he provides their Brit service registrations in the article. See why I'm having trouble making sense of this? 

Does anyone know the actual dates of the 101 trials, and where they were conducted, please? I don't have a copy of the trials report, but knowing the where and when might shed some light on the seemingly late arrival (11/1977) of these two - there doesn't seem to be enough time between then and the arrival of the first batch in 12/77 to conduct any sort of meaningful trials. Hell, the next 'batch' would have to have been on the water by that time anyway, in order to arrive in Dec 1977.

Mike
The confounding problem for James Taylor and the EMLRA people is the disposal records from the MoD which suggest they were disposed of in the UK when they were in fact still in Oz.  It was only when we sent them the image of the chassis number that any of them were convinced.

I have sent a text to Iain asking what is in the logbook of his vehicle Misguided II.



« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 12:47:33 PM by Diana Alan »
REMLR 240.
Perentie FFR 50-422, SIII FFR 30-146, SIIA GunBuggy 112-726, Mk3 Inter 170-437, ex-SADF SIIB/SIII Radio Relay,
Army Trailers: No5 x 2, W/S x 2, PT1-1.2, Horndraulic ATR dog trailer.
Civilian: MY85 RRc HiLine 4.6, MY51 ex-RACQ 80", MY91 Defender/Reynolds Boughton 6x6, MY12 D4 SDV6

Offline Diana Alan

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2014, 02:35:17 PM »
Mmmmm......
Very interesting.


29-170:
96100050  Army VRM 68FL57 delivered to Ashchurch
Built 22/03/1976
Entered Service 1/1/76
Factory colour Bronze Green BSC224
Winch fitted in Service
Became ARN 29-170 & Served in Australia As SAGW
Struck Off CMA Leeds 25/1/95
Ash 16/2/76
S/O BAC Stev 14/4/77
Veh Recovered W/A 13/5/79
Ash 14/5/79
16 AD Regt 30/6/80
12 AD Regt 1/5/81
16 AD Regt 7/1/85
22 AD Regt 25/11/92


22-171:
96100048  Army VRM 68FL55 delivered to Ashchurch
Built 22/03/1976
Entered Service 1/1/76
Factory colour Bronze Green BSC224
Winch fitted in Service 1/1/76
Became ARN 29-171 & Served in Australia As SAGW
Struck Off BRISTOL & WEST 11/6/85
Ash 29/3/76
S/O BAC Stev 14/4/77
Veh Recovered WA 18/5/79
Ash 14/5/79
16 AD Regt 30/6/80
12 AD Regt 1/5/8
Ash 14/11/83
16 AD Regt 7/1/85
Ash 14/11/85

I'm tipping the author of the article is mistaking the paper trail as shipping.
Particularly the entries when they were supposedly returned to Ashchurch (Ash) between allocations and sale.  The first Ash being original delivery.

More interesting is that one was delivered to Ashchurch before it was built, both entered service almost 3 months before being built and arriving at Ashchurch and one had the winch fitted "in-service" also almost 3 months before it was built, a clear indication of them being paper trails.   The entered service possibly being something like the contract date or order date when the MoD allocated the MOD tag number.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 04:14:13 PM by Diana Alan »
REMLR 240.
Perentie FFR 50-422, SIII FFR 30-146, SIIA GunBuggy 112-726, Mk3 Inter 170-437, ex-SADF SIIB/SIII Radio Relay,
Army Trailers: No5 x 2, W/S x 2, PT1-1.2, Horndraulic ATR dog trailer.
Civilian: MY85 RRc HiLine 4.6, MY51 ex-RACQ 80", MY91 Defender/Reynolds Boughton 6x6, MY12 D4 SDV6

Offline Phoenix

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2014, 01:49:29 PM »
There certainly is a bit of mystery as to a few of the Australian 101's.  Sorry about my late arrival at the party here.

Attrition I have only heard stories of, I have no documented proof of any, but the crash, sinkhole and fire I have heard of all of the above.  Mike, if possible, does the crash photo show any registration number? any chance of getting a copy for our archives?

Ok, the 101 ARN's and known information are here http://www.remlr.com/ARN/ARNs_101.php . There is 2 chassis no's which didn't fit so to speak.  The 2 trials vehicles were 961 prefixed, not 962 as the production batch.  However in the batch from 96200035A to 96200064A and 96200073A to 96200092A missing form the sequence is 96200090A, 96200078A.  Certainly 96100048A and 96100050A were thought to have been returned to the UK by british researchers, but as you pointed out mike, they were purchased, and at least one is well known in Australia still.  73 and 92 are a bit of a mystery as to why a batch would have just 2 missing chassis numbers, and I do wonder if they were a "swap"for not returning the trials vehicles rather than returning them to the UK, and sending 2 more here, at least that is my theory as they are both in the 2nd batch, and hte first 2 would have been well in unit use by then. 

I believe the blackbitch markings were put on by a unit, not at trials, as I have 2 different vehicles with blackbitch markings, one on a door, one on a body, and doors can be removed easily.

I do not have a copy of the trials report for the 101, all we have is the spectacular braking test photos x2


Admittedly REMLR is a little thin on on information on the main part of the website. I do need to rectify that.  I have also not seen James Taylor's article, does anybody have a copy?

If I have missed anything from my response, let me know, but unfortunately the 101, one of my favourite vehicles, is fairly thin on for Australian information and photos.
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Offline Phoenix

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2014, 02:09:10 PM »
Ok, 101 names, from the REMLR DB

29-170 Misguided II
29-414 Can Do
29-416 Black Bitch II
30-250 Badly Charred (on door frame below door in Auction Photo)
30-252 Black Bitch or Misguided 1? (Black Bitch in front of door in auction photo) (Missguided on door top in another photo post army)

Oh, and I do have 2 photos of a 101 that has had a crash on the drivers side front, but I wouldn't have thought it was a write off, and no rego plates fitted in the photos.
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Offline Mike C

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2014, 02:15:08 PM »
Well,Richard, if you don't know, who does?? Your theory about the swap seems a pretty reasonable one, and would account for why the two were purchased as a single pair (and not part of the group buys), and 'arrived' in store earlier than their counterparts. That would mean that the two mystery/can't find em chassis numbers are possibly in the UK still? Certainly the Brit info via Mick (Thanks, Mick) indicates their return to the UK, but we know that is not the case based on the purchase data and the existence of one in Oz. Quite a mystery!

I can send you the article from the latest edition of CMV: I'm surprised you don't have it, as James Taylor makes good mention of REMLR and your assistance in particular. Not to worry: email me, as I'm having some trouble getting the system to throw up your email address... I'm at mike (at) krystiimelaine.com 

The bent 101 was given to the RACT Museum at Pucka many years ago, and that's where I took the image. I think it was the front left side that was bent. In any event, it must have been written off for it to go to the RACT Museum. I'll have to locate and scan it (it is on print film, many moons ago!). In theory, it should have gone to Bandiana when the RACT Museum was moved there, to become part of the AMB: maybe they still have it stuck away in a shed? Might be worth asking.

As I think I said at the outset, this is not a vehicle I've spent much time on, and I don't have the trials report or the dates which makes joining the dots a bit difficult , but James' article made me curious as there were some things that didn't quite 'gel' with the limited info I do have. Between us all, we might get to a reasonable conclusion.

Mike

 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 02:17:19 PM by Mike C »

Offline fc101

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2014, 03:26:02 PM »
Ok, 101 names, from the REMLR DB

30-250 Badly Charred (on door frame below door in Auction Photo)

29 - 419 also has Badly Charred on the drivers door.

Offline fc101

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2014, 03:45:02 PM »
78 went into the factory on 6/4/78 and came out 31/7/78 was painted Olive Drab - so was earmarked for us - other than going to British Aerospace I have no other record of it.

90 went into the factory on 5/4/78 and came out 31/7/78 - was also Olive Drab and went to British Aero space.

As with others - while the intention was to send the trials vehicles back (and I assume the paperwork started) they stayed here and later as an offset 78 and 90 stayed in the UK and never came here.

I doubt that Bandiana has a second 101 - I worked a bit with the conservators of their 101 which has just gone on display and had a good look around their workshops and storage - at the time they were scrounging for parts and if they had a second it would have been cannibalised for the display.

Can you post up your pic of this damaged 101 - we would all like a look.

Garry

Offline Phoenix

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2014, 03:47:24 PM »
Thanks for that Garry.  I will add to the list.

Mike, I'm no expert (actually I suppose technically I am if an expert has done over 100 hours of work/research on a topic) but I don't have it all, I keep getting new information all the time.  I would dearly love the trial report, like many trial reports to be honest. Many are being digitised in the archives, but it's a matter of finding them etc. (email sent by the way).

I have photos of the one at bandiana that I took before they started work( it is currently finished I believe) but it did not carry the same damage in the photo that I have (attached for reference)

We will get there in the end with pooled knowledge , resources and documents.
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Offline Phoenix

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2014, 03:50:30 PM »
bandiana 101 before they started work attached.

Pucka may have had one as the school for learning how to use the rapiers (part of school of artillery last time I did a tour of the school they had an AD section). but it would have been sold along the way I suspect if there was a 2nd one.
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Offline fc101

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2014, 06:02:30 PM »
Thanks for the crashed 101 pic - what was its ARN?  Was it repaired?  It looks an easy repair as it seems the damage is clear of the main chassis - front outrigger is history.

I have a few pics of the bandiana 101 taken in 2011 when it was being rebuilt.

Garry

Offline Mike C

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2014, 04:49:12 AM »
Don't know where that image was taken, Richard - I don't recognise the background - but it is the same vehicle as I photographed at (1) disposals yard, Bandiana, in the distance with a line up of Series 3's for disposal, circa 1989 (it was when I was assisting with Centurion movements off-base) and (2) at the RACT Museum, Puckapunyal in Sept 1991. The Tac sign is the RAEME Training Centre (925, blue over yellow over red), which was at Bandiana, so at least we know where it served.

The ARN is indistinct on image (1) due to distance and lens quality, but appears to be 30259. The plate had been removed by the time it appeared at the RACT Museum, arriving there before Sept 91. ARN 30259 equates to 962000083A (per REMLR database). Does anyone know the chassis no. of the one now on display at AMB?

I have all three deliveries (29170-71 (2); 29405-426 (22); 30238-263 (26)) purchased under the same contract demand CD48610121, and all being taken on charge or at least assigned ARNs at 41 Supply Battalion. Group 1 on 14/11/1977; group 2 on 5/12/1977; group 3 on 20/2/1978.

Mike

Offline Diana Alan

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2014, 08:59:57 AM »
Well,Richard, if you don't know, who does?? Your theory about the swap seems a pretty reasonable one, and would account for why the two were purchased as a single pair (and not part of the group buys), and 'arrived' in store earlier than their counterparts. That would mean that the two mystery/can't find em chassis numbers are possibly in the UK still? Certainly the Brit info via Mick (Thanks, Mick) indicates their return to the UK, but we know that is not the case based on the purchase data and the existence of one in Oz. the existence of both in Oz. <snip>
Mike

Image taken at Corowa Swim-In 2013


Image taken at NRMA Motorfest 2010

Both remained in Oz. The return to the UK must have been only a paper trail as mentioned above.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 02:45:05 PM by Diana Alan »
REMLR 240.
Perentie FFR 50-422, SIII FFR 30-146, SIIA GunBuggy 112-726, Mk3 Inter 170-437, ex-SADF SIIB/SIII Radio Relay,
Army Trailers: No5 x 2, W/S x 2, PT1-1.2, Horndraulic ATR dog trailer.
Civilian: MY85 RRc HiLine 4.6, MY51 ex-RACQ 80", MY91 Defender/Reynolds Boughton 6x6, MY12 D4 SDV6

Offline Phoenix

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2014, 09:07:45 AM »
30-242 is the bandiana unit as per http://www.remlr.com/bandi-generalrover.html
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Offline Bluebell One-eight

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2015, 08:37:24 PM »
I've always thought that the trials vehicles were pre-production and were fitted with ENV diffs and had different fuel tanks to the production 101s. There was an article in a national magazine on the trials vehicles after they had been disposed of by the Army. They were then owned by ULR and had the driven trailers with them which also had ENV diffs. I am not certain but I think these vehicles didn't have permanent 4WD. There is a faint chance I may still have the magazine concerned. I ended up buying one of the fuel tanks and installed it on my own series 2B about 1982. I think that the 101 the tank came from was the one that had the bus body installed on it when Capt Mark Phillips came to Oz for a Horse event. I think it's still around, it was a few years back that it was offered for sale. Hope this hasn't muddied the water too much... John

Offline Mick_Marsh

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Re: A bit confused ....
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2015, 08:42:52 PM »
You might be talking pre-production.
A previous owner of one of my 101's owns a pre-production 101 with a powered trailer.
REMLR # 310, MVCA # 364, 101 Club # 2188, MHG #101
29-417 101 GS, 30-248 101 Rapier Tractor. 30-238 101
34-597 Crump & Cornish 1 ton Cargo Trailer
RT21 RAAF Track Tactical Trailer, 234-671 RAAF Track Tactical Trailer