Registry of Ex Military Land Rovers

REMLR Technical => Vehicle Markings => Topic started by: Diana Alan on April 10, 2013, 09:20:31 PM

Title: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Diana Alan on April 10, 2013, 09:20:31 PM
I wonder if we should create a database of unit numbers for tac signs.  Particularly in SVN and the dates.

e.g. 17 const sqn "108" and the recent photo of ? 103 signals "401".
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Phoenix on April 11, 2013, 10:59:07 AM
I started on that last week  :D

So far most of the information is from Mud and Dust, but I will be expanding on that.  It will appear on the vehicle parkings page soon I hope.
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Diana Alan on April 11, 2013, 01:27:51 PM
FAB
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Phoenix on April 11, 2013, 04:18:26 PM
Ok, I have the list done, in no small part thanks to Mud and Dust by Mike Cecil.

As a test I ran through some photos from vietnam to make sure I could pick up most units, and struck an 85 on RAASC background (blue and yellow Diagonal) on a F2 Inter.  Now 86 Transport Platoon was 86, but what was 85??
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Phoenix on April 11, 2013, 04:19:41 PM
and another one, white 77 on black on an ambulance.
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Phoenix on April 11, 2013, 04:50:06 PM
Oh, and the 401 for 104 Sigs is wrong, on their website they even ask what the story there was.  apart from being 104 backwards.  theirs was actually 403.
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Phoenix on April 11, 2013, 04:52:46 PM
47 on horizontal red and blue. another unknown.
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Diana Alan on April 11, 2013, 06:49:12 PM
Oh, and the 401 for 104 Sigs is wrong, on their website they even ask what the story there was.  apart from being 104 backwards.  theirs was actually 403.
Maybe, however I was thinking it was 103 Sigs.

Only because of the "Pentropic" making it early in the War and therefore before 104 Sigs were deployed.

I wonder if we should create a database of unit numbers for tac signs.  Particularly in SVN and the dates.

e.g. 17 const sqn "108" and the recent photo of ? 103 signals "401".
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: zulu delta 534 on April 11, 2013, 07:04:54 PM
Where more than one Corps was involved within a Unit, such as a training school, or in this particular case more specifically, a Field Ambulance unit where the transport element was RAASC and the Medical side was RAMC, then the Tac sign did not carry any specific Corps colour background. In this case the numbers become important, and these are issued (usually) from Canberra.
Therefore the black background states "non Corps specific" and the "76" represents 2 Field Ambulance and the "77" represents 8 Field Ambulance who later replaced "2" in the theatre.
Not too far down the line from these two numbers is "79" which is often mistakenly identified in black and white shots as also being on a black background where in actual fact it was on a diagonally divided "Red/Black" plate and represents the Military Police.
Back in 1966 when Operation Hardihood was first launched (the insertion of 1 ATF and 1 ALSG into SVN) most units were issued with specific identifying numbers.
See the posts by Rod http://remlr.com/forum/index.php?topic=441.msg3943#msg3943
These would be great in a sticky. Save some of us a lot of repetitive posting.
In the case of 87 Transport Platoon, back home in Puckapunyal we ran under our parent HQ's number on a RAASC blue/yellow plate. ie 25/522 which represented 25 Coy,/ 522- General Transport. When the unit was posted O/S, it went to Vietnam as an individual unit and was issued with the number 519 and the Div sign of 1ALSG - the logistical horses head.  Those with access to Stephen Taubert's book will see that the last Independent Transport Platoon was issued 518 back in the WWll days!
Our sister Unit in country was 1 Transport Platoon which belonged to 1 Tpt Coy (Div. Tpt.) and being already a Divisional Unit, the parent Company went overseas with their own Tac sign, RAASC colours and the number 70, but 1 Platoon was issued with the number 31.
When 1 Platoon shipped out of Sydney to go O/S this left a gaping hole in Divisional Transport requirements back home (important for training purposes for the proposed relief force for the following year)  so a replacement Platoon was raised. It was designated 12 Platoon and this Platoon automatically took the next Tactical number 32.      Confused yet?
When in 1967 1 Platoon was relieved by 2 Platoon RAASC, the logical next number had already been allocated to 12 Platoon, hence 2 Platoon took the NEXT number, 33 as its Tac number.

26 Company had replaced 25 Company back here in Australia, and so when a separate Transport Platoon and its inherent administrating Company HQ eventually arrived in country (see comments from 1 Coy Commdrs diaries approx 16 months earlier) it bore its Aussie Tac sign of 26/522 (26 Coy/ 522 -General Transport) and its Platoon didn't actually have any specific number allocated so it took the number 86 on a Blue/Yellow background to differentiate itself from the Coy HQ.
I assume 85 Platoon did the same for the same reason, but here I am in a bit of a quandary as I was always lead to believe that the idea of Tac signs was to signify the identity of the parent unit without being blatantly obvious to any enemy observers, hence the (what seems to outsiders) random issue of seemingly irrelevant numbers.
My suspicion is that the Units themselves took these numbers possibly as a "Unit pride" thing rather than as an official directive, but I could easily be wrong.

As for the Artillery sign I do not know who 47 was but there may be some Arty people who could tell us. I don't know what the Div Loc Battery signs were.
Regards
Glen
 
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Diana Alan on April 11, 2013, 07:43:18 PM
Isn't Infantry or at least Infantry HQ horizontal red-blue tac, where artillery is the diagonal red blue?
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Diana Alan on April 11, 2013, 07:59:34 PM
Signs similar to Stephen Tauberts book

1 Pentropic Div - 1 ATF Vietnam - HQ Army - HQ Logistics
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 11, 2013, 08:05:04 PM
I remember making up the RAR in-country list of known dates: http://www.remlr.com/vtours.html (http://www.remlr.com/vtours.html)
I don't recall where I got the info. A book somewhere. I'll search my little library.

All the Inf tacs were on a red background and all were also wearing the 1ATF red rat formation sign (being based at Nui Dat -is that half right or 100percent?)
I'd like to match up the 7RAR etc to the right numbers. eg 55, 60 etc
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: zulu delta 534 on April 11, 2013, 08:15:49 PM
Infantry is plain red.
Ordnance used the same colours as Arty but they had three upright bars,- Red Blue Red.
Some Artillery signs used the diagonal division but that was usually on their "third" Tac sign designating a position within a battery.
Not knowing anything about the particular photograph (I am flying blind here), if it is a later shot (post SVN) it could possibly be a later RACT Tac sign. Diagonal blue, red, blue colours.

The number 47 tjough definitely fits in with Artillery.

7 RAR was 61. The easiest one to remember is 6 RAR being 60. From this base, simply either add or subtract numbers for each Bns' identity.
1RAR 55
2 - 56
3 - 57
4 - 58
5 - 59
6 - 60
7 - 61
8 - 62
9 - 63.
Simple once you get the hang of it.

Regards
Glen
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 11, 2013, 08:38:12 PM
:) thx again Glen.

I was just looking around the Ausvets site: eg 1967 http://www.ausvets.com.au/vietnam/1967/ops1967.htm (http://www.ausvets.com.au/vietnam/1967/ops1967.htm) and the linked Op orders showing attachments on Ops. There's a load of info in them and they can tell you which RAE or RASigs etc etc was in country at a particular time:  eg http://www.ausvets.com.au/vietnam/war%20diaries/opord_santafe.pdf (http://www.ausvets.com.au/vietnam/war%20diaries/opord_santafe.pdf)

If this SVN tac "sticky" page idea was aiming to be thorough.... it'd be a huge job.
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Mike C on April 12, 2013, 01:26:28 AM
Haven't looked at the REMLR page as yet, but if you used M&D as the starting point, the number for 1 FDT (1st Forward Delivery Troop, RAAC) is incorrect (hey, I never said the book was perfect! :o) - I think it was 46, not 41, but I'll have to confirm that.

401 was Headquarters, AAFV and Headquarters, AFV (Army Component) .... same unit, different times. 403 is correctly listed as 104 Sig Sqn.

Of course, you'll be compiling a list of UNIT SERIAL NUMBERS too, won't you?  The four digit serial unique to each unit used for identifying equipment and stores.


Mike C
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: zulu delta 534 on April 12, 2013, 08:00:00 AM
As Mike said, 401 was HQ AFV and this number was generally displayed on a black background (non Corps specific) so I assume (there is that word again) that the said Signals vehicle was from a sigs unit attached to HQ AFV.
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/glenpats/0011_P163-1_zps6d6c25f5.jpg) (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/glenpats/media/0011_P163-1_zps6d6c25f5.jpg.html)

(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/glenpats/0012_P165_zps8cd8ceaa.jpg) (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/glenpats/media/0012_P165_zps8cd8ceaa.jpg.html)

It was common for attached units to display the parent unit's number on their own background, especially in the case, for example, of RAEME wksps attached to Transport or Engineer units.
Regards
Glen

Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 12, 2013, 08:19:39 AM
Love those photos/slides. The laundry was in Vungers I suppose, the building in back is 2-3 floors.

Should this thread be moved to the vehicle markings sub-section?
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Diana Alan on April 12, 2013, 08:27:49 AM
Then the two likely units would be those in country in 1965:
HQ 145 Signal Squadron 709 Signal Troop     25 May 65 - 20 Nov 67
527 Signal Troop     14 Sep 65 - 5 Jul 67, absorbed into 145 Signal Squadron
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: zulu delta 534 on April 12, 2013, 09:13:59 AM
Ross, slightly off subject I know, but if you look at page 162 of M/D top photograph left side, you and I both know the Lance Jack with the M60.
Regards
Glen
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 12, 2013, 09:35:47 AM
Ah, good news there. I'll have a look, I have reserved M&D at the library. Has he seen the photo elsewhere -- is it one of yours or the assn's?

Also, this morning I did a "crop" of that intersection at Nui Dat in 68 (Stan Middleton 2AOD collection).

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v6fFdj7_TRM/UWdBsdvj_mI/AAAAAAAAC70/zhicl1t-KbI/s407/tacs-at-nui-dat-68-2AOD-crop.jpg)

On the left:

401 = HQ AFV non-corps-specific
51 = Army Aviation. 161 Recce
107 = RAAC
61 = RAINF 7RAR
50 = non-corps-specific
828 = non-corps-specific

In the center:

42 = RAA
47 = RAA
13 = RAA
21 = 21 support troop RAE
60 =  RAINF 6RAR
102 = ??

On the right:

35 = 21 or 25? Supply Platoon (Det.) RAASC
76 = RAAMC 2 Field Ambulance
83 = RAAOC
80 = non-corps-specific
551 = non-corps-specific
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: zulu delta 534 on April 12, 2013, 10:36:11 AM
Left pole; The 51 Tac I think you will find is a light blue over a dark blue background which would signify Army Aviation. 161 Recce. (callsign Possum)

Centre pole; The Infantry 102 may possibly be V Coy 1 RNZIR who were also deployed, but then again I was under the impression that they were attached to 2 RAR (56) and that sign doesn't show up. I am not at all up on my Kiwi signs, perhaps there is someone here from that far off distant shore?
The photograph was probably taken  around late April- May 67 as 5RAR has gone home being replaced by 7RAR, but 6RAR is still there on its first rotation. There was about a month or so overlap on rotations.
Some of those signs that look black may be blue as in the 21 on the centre pole represents 21 Support Troop RAE. If you look at the Arty signs that we all know are Red over Blue, they do look black. Well, on my screen anyway.
The Artillery batteries at the time would have been possibly 103 (42) and I am unsure of the 47. The 13 represents the Kiwi 161 Battery.
Right pole; The 35 on the RAASC colours is either 21 or 25 Supply Platoon (Det.).
Once upon a time I would have known all these off pat as all convoy deliveries depended on these signposts.

As for the M/D photograph, I feel it is one set up for the Army PR people as the bod in the background is RAAF. Definitely not one of ours.

Regards
Glen
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 12, 2013, 10:58:50 AM
Thx for the info Glen, done that. And you're right -- I did a CSI-pixel-level sample on paint.net and that 21 is a dark blue, not black.
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 12, 2013, 11:23:29 AM
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/glenpats/0012_P165_zps8cd8ceaa.jpg)

This Landy could be 113437 or 113497. Both were 6005M.
113437 has numerous mentions in AWM95 docs from apr68 onwards. It was disposed of in 71 by 2AOD after an MVA.
113497 has no mentions so far found and was disposed of in Au in 1980.
(The only other possibility is 113457 which is not BBB noted as 6005M, only 6005, but it did have a mystery chassis change at some point).
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Phoenix on April 12, 2013, 11:45:38 AM
Ok, this thread is giving me head spin!!!

Before I read this thread again (after I did some work on REMLR) this is what I came up with for vietnam units.  http://www.remlr.com/vehicle-markings.html.  The page still needs a lot added, but you have to start somewhere.

Now I need to troll through the pages of this thread making additions and adjustments.  Some great work, information and photos in here.

Mike, unit serial numbers as well.  I have even been compiling Unit Depot Codes as well as post vietnam units, but for now, this narrower slice will suffice as it is also more accurate than the rest.
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 12, 2013, 12:04:03 PM
Thx for that page, tons of research re the 4 digit codes and Chrissy trees etc etc.
As you say, its a great start and there's a mile to go.  8)
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 16, 2013, 01:57:45 PM
Found a 161 NZ Arty pic with their tac on display; 13

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--gSn2tP4_0s/UW0LWUMqP4I/AAAAAAAAC-0/TRJH3m-DufI/s956/kiwi-arty-66-French_Fort_Area.jpg)


...and here's "25", something to do with RAA 131 Div Loc Surveyors.

(http://www.artillerysurveyors131.com.au/operations/resources/Survey_Nui_Lon.jpg)
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 16, 2013, 02:04:47 PM
unit 551 marking at Nui Dat - 11ft cobra in lines (shot dead in tent). RAA 67.
(http://www.artillerysurveyors131.com.au/operations/resources/6_HQ_Cobra.jpg)
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Aussie Jeepster on April 16, 2013, 03:07:19 PM
Here are some more which I've collected.
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Aussie Jeepster on April 16, 2013, 03:08:37 PM
And more.
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 16, 2013, 04:01:24 PM
Here are some more which I've collected.

thx, and look at the view of Vungers. It looks bigger from up there - bigger than the impression I had formed from all the other photos.

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ydNWeP-TTnc/UWzoey2Z3WI/AAAAAAAAC-Q/kFSEYnJh5WE/s1024/114053-unk-vungers.jpg)
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 16, 2013, 04:02:57 PM
..and I just noticed there's actually a two spanners working under the Landrover.

I saw one pair of shoes under the front bumper at first, and now I see one arm and watch near the passenger doorway.
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: zulu delta 534 on April 16, 2013, 04:05:43 PM


...and here's "25", something to do with RAA 131 Loc Div Surveyors.

(http://www.artillerysurveyors131.com.au/operations/resources/Survey_Nui_Lon.jpg)

The colours say Royal Australian Engineers; as do the numbers, but I am not too sure which unit.
Div Loc was artillery and had a red/blue Tac sign.
Get on the ball you blokes, there will be a test on this later on!!   ;)
For homework read this earlier post by Hotrover and memorise it.
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n637/HotRover/FORMATIONSIGNSANDVEHICLEMARKINGSOFTHEAUSTRALIANARMY-2.jpg

Regards
Glen
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 16, 2013, 04:11:04 PM
Its a bit more involved. I meant the photo came from the RAA assn website, its their members. What 25 RAE could mean is therefore a bit open. It looks black like "att to HQ".

http://www.artillerysurveyors131.com.au/operations/resources/Survey_Nui_Lon.jpg (http://www.artillerysurveyors131.com.au/operations/resources/Survey_Nui_Lon.jpg)
http://www.artillerysurveyors131.com.au (http://www.artillerysurveyors131.com.au)
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on April 16, 2013, 04:18:34 PM
I just brightened up my screen. Its not all black under the 25 - its dark blue on the diagonal as Glen said...
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: zulu delta 534 on April 16, 2013, 06:01:34 PM
The soil colour doesn't look right for the Australian base at Vungers!!
551 has me fascinated, does anyone know what 1 ARU's number was?
1 ARU was a non Corps specific unit that held soldiers from all Corps who were detached to units whose numbers required them.
We had one bloke in our unit who served with us for at least 8 months that I know of and his name never shows up on any official 87 rolls. He does however show up as a member or 1ARU. I find it a bit strange that he served all that time without being a unit member whereas others came and went to and from Australia posted specifically to the unit.  I suppose "ours is not to reason why....."
Regards
Glen
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Aussie Jeepster on April 16, 2013, 06:02:30 PM
..and I just noticed there's actually a spanner working under the Landrover.
I guess we won't go into OH&S issues here, or maybe we just can't see the vehicle stands in the photo  8)
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: bronzie66610 on April 23, 2013, 03:50:33 PM
Hi all
Today i found  "RP" on  112 915 tac plate under olive drab. Does any one know what it signifies ?. Would appreciate any info.
David
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: aussiegregmac on April 23, 2013, 04:22:32 PM
Regimental Police  maybe
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: AGAS 5 on April 23, 2013, 06:44:15 PM
+1
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: bronzie66610 on April 23, 2013, 07:06:01 PM
NOT "I" LOL
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on May 01, 2013, 04:19:48 PM
I clue to a mystery posed by ZD further up thread.
On pg 68 of Mud & Dust in the arty section there a photo AWM ERR/68/0472/VN showing a M2A2 gun with unit tac 44 and the caption ID says the Nasho gunner is from the 102 Fd Bty, 12 Fd Regt, May 68.
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Carzee on May 01, 2013, 05:00:55 PM
Also, M&D notes sigs 410 tac as being 709 signal troop (init deployment June 65) awm P01217.002

(http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/images/screen/P01217.002.jpg)
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Diana Alan on May 01, 2013, 05:21:39 PM
I can never remember the name for that transceiver set?

Weren't they the same set fitted to the Boeing 707?
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Diana Alan on May 05, 2013, 10:00:51 PM
Was reading the section on the HMAPCs in the mud and dust book and on pg 107 Mike mentions that the tac 21 is the RAE 1 field Squadron.

It think we may have thought 21 Support Troop at one time.

Glen, can you remember if the numbers 57 and 58 (red inf tac) related to one of the various RAR rotations? 

Diana
Title: Re: REMLR list of Tac numbers SVN etc
Post by: Mike C on May 07, 2013, 05:32:54 AM
That Land Rover 'Medium Radio Station' is one of my favorite images (if that's possible). The M&D caption provides details of the radio unit and its usage in SVN. An AN/TRC-75 (Duplex) and visible is the TT-4/TG teletypewriter, I think made by Kleinschmidt (sp?). Big lump of a radio set for a Land Rover.

Mike C