Registry of Ex Military Land Rovers
REMLR Technical => Electrical => Topic started by: Rob6x6 on March 19, 2018, 09:39:15 PM
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G'day all,
The changeover switch for the fuel tanks has stopped working. I wanted to check the fuse however I can't locate it at the moment. I opened the fuse cover and it said something like fuse for changeover switch and ambulance siren (if applicable) is located behind the ashtray. I removed the ashtray and shone a light in and couldn't seem to locate it.
When I turn the ignition on the fuel gauge will shoot straight up to full however this is not correct. Any clues as to where to look.
Cheers, Rob
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Rob, you may need to dig pretty deep behind the ashtray to find those fuses. They can get hidden behind a rats nest of wires.
However, if it is just the fuel gauge you are concerned about, it is unlikely to be a fuse at fault. It could be a bad connection on the fuel change-over relay. There is a press-tag on top of the electrical connector - press that and you should be able to remove the connector. Make sure it is clean and dry, and refit. Also worth checking the connector on top of the fuel tank. The 'spade' terminal is the gauge, the bullet type is for the low fuel warning light.
Good luck,
Paul
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Thanks Paul,
I have had a good look into that rats nest and cant pick up a fuse. I am thinking of getting one of those cheap little inspection cameras to dig deeper.
Can you tell me where the fuel change over relay is located.
Appreciate any further assistance.
Cheers, Rob
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Can't help with relay location but ... is there a relay for the changeover switch ?
In my 4X4 RFSV, 5 of the relays are mounted in the main fuse box.
The Pollak valve (changeover valve) has a special strip connector which is somewhat exposed down between the tanks.
I think I would start by cleaning the connector contacts.
This electrical connector also changes the fuel gauge selection when the selector is switched.
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Thanks Dugite,
I think that's what I will try. Go straight to the Pollak valve and give the connections a clean and good spray of Parrots P..s. I could well have picked up some moisture and crude in the connection. Agree its location is pretty exposed to some harsh elements.
Cheers, Rob
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Wipe any excess cleaner to avoid tracking and shorts, it is a neo coated strip on the side of the Pollak.
I hope it helps.
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Thanks Dugite,
Will let you know how I go.
Cheers Rob
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Rob, if it is just the fuel gauge reading full you are concerned about, do check the fuel sender connections on the top of your tank, especially if it only has the fault on one tank.
If it happens on both tanks, it is more likely to be the aforementioned connector on the fuel change-over relay (Pollack valve).
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Thanks Blokes,
Will give it a crack over the weekend.
Cheers, Rob
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pin marked "B" on the connector is for the fuel gauge
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here you go
schematic view of Pollak valve wiring
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Just for reference if you want to purchase a genuine Pollak , they're available from the importer Scintex in Brissie, who actually sell them them slightly cheaper on clickandcollect ebay :)
Plenty of quite cheap clones on US ebay where all the "good ol' boys" use them with all the extra tanks in their "trucks" - dunno if these clones are any good.
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Remember when testing the fuel gauge connections that a BROKEN connection gives a full+ tank reading, while a short to ground will show empty. You seem to have a broken connection - between the Pollack and the gauge if it is on both tanks, or between the pollack and the tank sender if only reading full on one tank.
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Thanks Fellas,
I pulled the wire connector out of the Pollak valve and sprayed it with some silicone lubricant gave it a wipe put it back in and no joy. So the fuel gauge is showing full on both tanks could it be the Pollak valve is had it? I will mention that I have been playing with the dash recently to get the dash lights working better but everything was working fine. Do you think a wire could have worked off the back of the fuel gauge and if so would this give a full tank reading?
Cheers Rob
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Just looked behind the fuel gauge and all the wires seem ok.
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Hi Rob, can you hear the Pollak actuating when you function the switch when the ignition is "on" (engine not running of course) ?
I would expect that the Pollak valve itself is probably OK and I think your next project is to check continuity between the gauge, the switch, the Pollack and the fuel sender on the line connected at "B".
I would suggest referencing the schematic sketch I posted above.
As nothingnow has posted above, the gauge reads "full" when current doesn't get through to the earth at the sender, so the next most likely points are ...
1. power supply on lines at the switch which are connected to line "B" on the Pollak
2. the earths at the senders - they may look "ok" but you need to verify them with jumpers or multimeter ,
3. check the selector switch itself and its connections, tested likewise
Even apparently good looking crimps can have continuity faults, and wires at crimp points can fray - have you got some Jaycar test leads and/or a multimeter ?
Frustrating I know, but it is all logical
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Rob, you should never, ever, EVER use silicon spray on electrical connectors. It is a great insulator. I think you should pull off the pollack connector again, get a small paint brush and a LOT of RP7/WD40 etc and scrub like mad on both parts.
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Paul, yes I did realize my error and I pulled out the Pollak connection again and sprayed both ends with wd40 and cleaned it and sprayed it again and left it not connected for a couple of hours.
Dugite, no I can not hear the the Pollak engaging when I switch it from one side to the other. Which I would always hear when it was working.
Will keep digging.
Cheers Rob
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Keep at it Rob, you will get there.
You may have two faults - the Pollack not clicking means just that it is not changing tanks, it should be set on the last selected tank and the appropriate fuel gauge. (The Pollack also selects the correct tank for the gauge.)
So the two faults are
1, Not changing tanks
2, Fuel gauge not working on whichever tank is selected.
On mine, the change-over switch on the dashboard was full of dirt - as a temporary fix I just squirted some WD40 into the front while operating the switch back and forth. It is working for now, but will need to be replaced.
Cheers, Paul
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Paul, I will try the wd40 trick into the front of the selector switch tomorrow and keep my fingers crossed.
.Another question. How do I get the panel off which houses the control switch. I have undone the 2 machine screws but it doesn't want to move. I can only presume that the vacuum switch, heater switch and cig lighter are some how stopping its removal. Because I would like to check the switch and it's connections.
Once again thanks for your assistance fellas.
Cheers Rob
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Another question fellas,
Do all the connection points on the back of the ignition switch need to be all hooked up. When I had the dash lifted yesterday I noticed there was one point that wasn't connected and there was a loose wire with a connector very close to it.
Dugite, I see the schematic shows the change over switch is feed through a accessory power circuit. I am wondering if this loose connection could be my problem.
I didn't want to just hook it up and try it in case I caused further problems. What do you think.
Also when the ignition was on (engine not running) the reverse lights were not working could this be somehow all linked.
Cheers Rob
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If it has original military wiring, the reverse lights only work with the engine running and reverse gear engaged.
Do you have a test light or multimeter? - either can be rigged between the unconnected terminal on the wire and any earth to see if there is power to the unconnected terminal on the wire when the ign is "on".
This possibly could be your problem (that it is unconnected) :)
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G'day, Dugite and Paul
I tested the un hooked wire connector with ignition on and it had power. Likewise the un hooked connector on the ignition switch also had power.
I then found a in line fuse nearby I tested its continuity and it failed I then put another fuse in (admittedly it was a high rated one) and that connection got extremely hot straight away I turned the power off immediately because I reckon it was about to start smoking up.
I can only presume that this is the fuse for the Pollak.
My question is do you think that the loose wire connector and the connection on the ignition should be hooked up considering that they both have power individually when the ignition is on and this will somehow complete some strange circuit.
The plot thickens....
Appreciate any further assistance
Cheers Rob.
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It's a hard one Rob, trial and error with electrics can be fraught. I have a few electrical circuits here and so may be able to sus out what is happening if I can identify which circuit fits your model. What year is your 6x6, and what colour is the loose wire near the ignition switch? How many fuses are in the main fuse box? Tube or blade fuses? Where was the faulty fuse located - near the ign switch or under the ashtray?
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I tested the un hooked wire connector with ignition on and it had power. Likewise the un hooked connector on the ignition switch also had power.
I then found a in line fuse nearby I tested its continuity and it failed I then put another fuse in (admittedly it was a high rated one) and that connection got extremely hot straight away I turned the power off immediately because I reckon it was about to start smoking up.
I can only presume that this is the fuse for the Pollak.
What was the colour of the wire and trace to either side of this fuse?
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Something else to check - when you operate the fuel switch back and forth, a relay that controls the low fuel warning light should be heard to 'click'. On my 97 model this relay is behind the fuse panel, so it is easy to distinguish between the click of the switch and the click of the relay.
If you can hear the relay click, then you know that power is getting to the change-over switch so the fault will be in the wiring to the Pollack or the Pollack itself.
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I will see if a photo works. Not sure if I can get it to happen.
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That's the wire connector that is very close to the ignition switch.
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This fuse holder didn't house a fuse as first thought. It is in fact a resistor. Very strange never seen one before don't know what it is supplying. That's why I didn't get continuity when I tested it. However it has something like 96 ohms or thereabouts. I'm no auto sparkie by any stretch of the imagination I'm just trying to learn and winging it as I go.
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I have a 12/1990 model. It has the later model blade fuse box not the older glass style.
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Picture of fuses
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Another
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Fellas I really do appreciate this.
Cheers Rob
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Rob, the 1990 model with blade fuses should have the low fuel relay in that fuse panel. Try very gently moving the fuel switch between tanks, and see if you can hear the relay click. If it does, you can eliminate wiring between the fuel switch and the battery and concentrate on the wiring between the fuel switch and the Pollak valve.
If the relay clicks, and you can find a tail-light globe or similar with wires on it, unplug the Pollak connector and look for electricity between pins E and D. (Pin F is the one with no wire, E and D are the next two with wires). The light should be on whichever way the switch is set, but might flicker as the switch is changed from left to right. If that all happens, then it is likely that the Pollak valve is faulty.
If the relay clicks, but the light doesn't go when connected between D and E, then the wiring loom between the switch and the Pollak is faulty.
If the relay DOESN'T click, try again to find that missing fuse. It should be in a block of four hanging loose on wires well below the ashtray.
Good luck!
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Thanks blokes, I will keep looking.
Paul, what are your thoughts on that loose wire connector near the ignition switch.? It does have power when ignition. Should I try and find another wire somewhere down deep that may have worked off. It just seems strange that it is not connected to something considering it has power.
Cheers Rob.
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Rob, it is probably a red herring while looking for your fuel problem. Do a few tests that can at least determine where the fault lies with the fueling, and worry about that wire later. If you find there is no power to the fuel change-over switch, then investigate that wire. Why do you think it is a 96 ohm resistor? That is not a standard value for a resistor.
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Thanks Paul,
I will keep digging. 96 ohms is what I thought it was but I could have been totally off. I might dig it out again and test then let you know. As previously mentioned I am no auto sparkie by any stretch. But I am having a crack to get my head around this.
Cheers Rob
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Rob, at least try for the relay noise. That will give you a start on where to look, and make it easier for those who advise you.
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Thanks Paul,
I just tried the relay noise and couldn't hear anything. So I will go to the next step as has been explained.
Will try again tomorrow.
Cheers Rob
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Okay, so it is pretty likely that there is no voltage getting to the change-over switch. That is probably good news, better than needing a new Pollak valve. Dig deep for that missing fuse - it should be in a block of four fuses.
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Ok fellas,
I have checked for power between D & E on the Pollak connection with the ignition on and got nothing. I have looked high and low for those illusive fuses and for the life of me I can't locate them. Could they have been positioned some where else I'm kinda grasping at straws here.
Any further assistance appreciated.
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On mine it was on the far side and underneath the dashlight dimmer switch, almost under the fuel switch. You may need to borrow some small hands to reach it and carefully bring it back to the ashtray hole.
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thanks notlongnow (got your name properly this time :) ), 6X6 is beyond my experience as I stated, my dual tanks and Pollak are in an RFSV
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Thanks fellas, I will keep digging.
Cheers Rob
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Fellas,
I have had one small victory. I have found those four elusive fuses. Your right they were buried deep down below the dimmer switch. What was throwing me off was that they were upside down with other wiring covering it and I couldn't actually see the fuses... what a pain.
Any how what I discovered was a blown 12 amp fuse. Changed it and tried the change over switch and it blew it immediately. So therefore I am guessing I have a short somewhere. But how to go about it locating it?
I am going to hark back to that question about the unconnected wire and terminal on the ignition switch could this be related.
Thoughts Gentlemen?
Cheers Rob
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Fellas, I changed the dash selector switch which I sourced from Jaycar thinking that this was the problem that was a bit of a mission. But no luck I just keep blowing 10 amp fuses.
So now I am at a loss. I'm not sure where to go next. The wires from the switch are all either black or white that goes into the tangled mess of wires and I'm not sure where to try and chase next.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Cheers Rob.
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Rob, one method for finding a short that may help you is as follows.
Rig a 12v test light in place of the fuse and when the circuit is "shorting" the light will be on.
Then examine the wiring for that circuit to find where the short is.
When the light is "ON" the fuse would be "BLOWN", when the light goes out the fuse would not be "shorting".
Saves fuses while you're tracking down the "short" :)
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This is the kind of rig I have used to place a test light in place of a fuse, cables are soldered into an old blown fuse, terminals are to connect to a light
You can see it is well used :)
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Does the fuse blow on only one of the tank alternatives ??
- may help track down the cable that is offending
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Good idea Dugite, I will make one of those myself. I have plenty of blown fuses to make it from.....
Rob, I have been told that a lot of wires run behind the air filter and get chafed. Worth having a look there.
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Good idea Dugite, I will make one of those myself. I have plenty of blown fuses to make it from.....
Rob, I have been told that a lot of wires run behind the air filter and get chafed. Worth having a look there.
Hint: drill a small hole through the fuse plastic to get to some metal to solder the cable to :)
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Fellas, that's great stuff.
Not sure if it blows on both sides will check.
Will also check behind the air filter.
Thanks.
Cheers Rob
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G'day Fellas,
Still trying to find the short. I have taken the air cleaner housing out to expose the wires from the fire wall but still can't see anything that might be causing the problem just yet.
Dugite, it does short on both sides whether the switch is on left or right. I rigged up one of your test fuses great idea it has saved me buying a bucket full of 10 amp fuses. I have followed the wiring from the Pollak connection along the top of the chassis rail back to the engine bay area and all appears ok.
Will keep digging.
Do you think that the Pollak valve itself if faulty could cause this issue?
Cheers Rob.
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This is the circuit.
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Another
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Hi Rob, see where the cabling is located behind that sheet metal (top and left).
I believe some owners have found cable insulation damaged by vibration where it passes the sheet metal edge.
Worth taking a good looking at :)
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Will do.
Cheers Rob
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If that has happened, tape it up any damaged insulations individually and enclose it/them in corrugated split tube.
May also be good to round off any offending sheet metal edge or fit a plastic cover to any sharp edges to protect the future life of that wiring "group"
Tubing is available in a range of diameters
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This is the wire that went behind the the metal shield and then came back into another loom. I relocated it to the front of the shield because that's where the loom is.
However still no luck its got to be somewhere else.
Very frustrating......
One thing I have found along the way is there are quite a few wires with connections that are not hooked up to anything.
Any further suggestions?
Cheers Rob
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Another
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Rob, the Pollak valve could be faulty. Simply unplug and see what happens. There is a clip on the top centre of the plug where it enters the valve. Your "Dugite Tester" will show if the fault goes away when you unplug.
Sometimes it is easier to replace faulty wires than to locate the exact point of the fault.
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Thanks Paul,
Will try the next step.
I suppose that's why it's called electrickity.
Cheers Rob
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Paul,
I unplugged the Pollak connection then used my 'Dugite tester' and no light on the test lamp came on. So no short showing anymore.
So does this mean that the Pollak valve itself is cactus?
Cheers Rob
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Yep, looks like it Rob. Double check by plugging in and out a few times to see if your observation is repeatable, then try again to see if it blows the fuse. There is a risk of confusion here because the Pollak does draw enough power to light the light - but not to blow the fuse. What you have done has pretty certainly proved that the wiring does not have a short circuit, and that is good news. They can be very hard to find.
Pollak is cheapest from Scintex.
https://www.scintex.com.au/products/pollak-fuel-valve-switch
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....
Pollak is cheapest from Scintex.
https://www.scintex.com.au/products/pollak-fuel-valve-switch
slightly cheaper still via ebay c&c - still from Scintex
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G'day Fellas,
Will do as you suggested Paul and double check. I was really hoping that it wasn't the wiring.
Will let you know how I get on. I will chase up a new Pollak valve during the week.
Thanks for all the help along the way to date.
Cheers Rob
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Fellas, I tried a number of times and the fuse blew when only the Pollak was connected to the harness. Will get on to ordering a new Pollak during the week. Fingers crossed this is it.
Cheers Rob
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;) ROB ,for what it is worth , have rfsv and it had the same probs, bought a new pollak valve from scintex and all probs gone , hopefully yours is the same prob ,gook luck,TONA,.
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Thanks Tona,
I ordered one today from Scintex.
Did you change the electrical connection plug when you replace it. Also did you lose much fuel and did it require re priming?
Cheers Rob
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Thanks Dugite,
Will get myself prepared I have two full tanks and will try to tackle it on the weekend.
Cheers Rob
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With the rfsv at least, if each tank is below 50% it doesn't seem to syphon out. But have a good sized (10 litre should give plenty of time if it is syphoning) drain pan handy in any case.
Wear eye protection goggles just in case! You wi!l be looking UP
Remove the electrical plug, remove the mounting bolts, loosen each hose connection on the Pollak, then it is a fairly quick changeover anyway - no fuel is under pressure.
Just check the mounting bolts first by taking one out and check that it fits the new Pollak.
The mounting bolt threads on your new Pollack may be different (Metric vs A/F perhaps ?) so you may need to find new mounting bolts.
Secure all fuel hose clamps and replace the electrical connection - check for function by listening with ign on and without the engine running as before (you could even do this with the new one before commencing installation).
The engine will start and run on the fuel remaining in the filter but may fail to self-bleed and cut out after a short while if too much air has entered the system while you were changing over.
Be prepared to bleed the system. Let us know if you're unsure how to do this.
If the Pollack IS cactus, don't chuck it in the rubbish - I would like to see what they're like inside with their magnets etc, but you have to destroy one to see this :)
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;) ROB 6x6 , no did not change the wiring plug , just cleaned it well , blew it out sprayed a little silicone spray on it, did not have to bleed system as my fuel tanks were just in half full, if yours are full you may have to be very quick on the change over or you will have fuel all over the ground and on your self, lets know if the pollak fixes you r prob ,cheers TONA,.
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Use a pair of adjustible line clamps on the 8.0 mm rubber fuel lines as you change out each side, stops diesel going everywhere with a minimal diesel drible up your sleeve!
Works like a beauty and makes installation so much easier and cleaner. I changed out the hose clamps for all stainless steel construction too - no potential rusty hose clamps - another propblem removed.
STDDIVER
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Thanks fellas,
For all the great input and direction on this issue I really appreciate it. I should have the Pollak tomorrow and will give it a crack on the weekend.
Cheers Rob
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G'day, Dugite
Just in case I need to bleed the system. I wouldn't mind a heads up on the procedure.
I have downloaded the maintenance and repair manuals but haven't looked that up yet. You may have a more simplified version.
Cheers Rob
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Rob, PM sent :)
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Thanks, Dugite
PM sent.
Another question relating to the rubber fuel lines connected to the Pollak. Is there another size as well as the 8mm hose in use. Mind you I haven't crawled back under the truck to check at this stage.
I think I will be replacing the hoses and clamps during this procedure as they were looking a little worse for wear.
thanks fellas for the ongoing input.
Cheers Rob
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Dugite, I too would be grateful for priming information. I tried it on mine and had fuel all over the floor from the primer itself. Is this normal, or maybe I unscrewed the primer too far?
Thanks, Paul
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Dugite, I too would be grateful for priming information. I tried it on mine and had fuel all over the floor from the primer itself. Is this normal, or maybe I unscrewed the primer too far?
Thanks, Paul
PM sent mate
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Is this Bosch pump the type of fuel pump on your 6X6s ?
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No, mine is quite different!
I can't work out how to insert a picture - could you help please?
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Oh... it did work then! :) :)
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Ok Notlongnow, yet another type where the pumping stroke needs to be released by, as you have noted, unscrewing it.
If it's leaking as much as you indicate I think I'd just replace it with the type in the pic in my earlier post.
If you order a new one tell them the injector pump brand - I expect they'd all fit.
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I will Laurie, that looks neat. I will be interested in looking at mine when I get it off to see why it leaks so much.
Cheers, Paul
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The best shot I could manage regarding the pump.
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Shot of my Dugite valve. All the hoses look like 8mm.
Cheers Rob
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G'day Fellas,
I have got the new Pollak valve and plugged it in and tested to see if I could hear it clicking from one to to the other. Seems all good i could hear it change over and no blown fuses.
Happy Happy Days.
Now just have to do the change over and put the dash back together on the weekend.
It does have two different hose sizes. 3/8" ID supply line and 5/16" return line. I have some new 5/16" fuel hose and will get some 3/8" fuel hose tomorrow along with some new hose clamps.
Will update when I have a win.
Cheers Rob
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HI Rob, lookin' good - if you go to purchase pipe I think they may be metric sizes (6 & 8 ??),
and did you check to see if your mounting screws fitted those threads in your new Pollak ?
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Nearly there Rob. Now would be a good time to see if your fuel gauge changes correctly when you operate the Pollak. It is the Pollak that selects the tank gauge, the relay behind the fuse panel selects the low fuel warning light.
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Thanks fellas,
Will check bolts and fuel gauge in the morning.
Cheers Rob
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Fellas,
Finally all done. You beauty.
Many thanks to Dugite and Notlongnow for all your input along the way it was greatly appreciated.
Hopefully our paths may cross one day and I will buy you blokes a few beers.
Cheers Rob
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Congrats Rob, good for you for not giving up. It must have been getting close! Happy travels.
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Picture of the old Pollak value.
It was frustrating at times but worth it. I have learned a lot along the way. The old girl is purring like a kitten.
Cheers
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Hey Rob, while you are at it I would fit a fuel filter assembly immediately after the pollak valve. This is easy to do and saves a lot of time stuffing around with cleaning the mesh filter in the banjo bolt on the lift pump. I can get a pic of one fitted for you tomorrow if you want.
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Thanks Bearman,
I would be very interested with a picture and details of the filter.
Cheers Rob
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Here's some pictures of it and where I mounted it Rob. I hooked the pipe from The Pollak valve into in to it and joined the outlet to the fuel line. You can see the filter number there and where I screwed the brass base to the cab crossmember. FS1221 and Donaldson P550688 will also fit that base and all are filter/sedimenter types
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Great stuff Bearman,
Great idea I will get my head around it and do the same. You can never have to much filtration in my opinion.
Another beer owing.
Cheers Rob.
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Bearman,
Just curious I see a braided hose in one of the pictures just wondering what it's for. A water tank line?
Cheers Rob
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Bearman,
Just curious I see a braided hose in one of the pictures just wondering what it's for. A water tank line?
Cheers Rob
The stainless one in the third pic is the air line from the compressor to the air tanks Rob.
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Very nice Bearman, that is on my ever growing list of things to do. I'm currently getting a fuel tank made up and then a water tank.
Cheers Rob.
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I put a 300l fuel and 85l water tank under the tray plus a 2nd spare and 2 x 15l air tanks above the twin batteries on the passenger side.
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Bearman, my fuel tank will be about 330 litres mounted to the headboard and the water tank will be about 350 litres mounted under the tray.
Can I ask where did you plumb your fuel line into ?
Cheers Rob.
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I removed the equaliser pipe between the two tanks and made a separate breather for each one. I then got rid of the original breather setups that piss fuel everywhere when you get near full and made up separate ones. The breather from the RH tank is now plumbed into the breather pipe of the aux tank filler which is situated on the front of the tray just near the RH tank filler. I set up my aux tank with an electric pump which pumps into the RH tank through the breather pipe. When I am cruising I just monitor the RH tank and as it gets a bit low I flick a switch and it takes about 15 mins and it is full again. No need to worry about return lines or extra tank gauges and senders.
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Thanks Bearman,
You have given me some good ideas there. I was considering a transfer pump and possibly going into the filler neck somehow. I like what you have done so I will get my planning happening.
Cheers, Rob
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Let me know if you want some pics posted up. I used a Disco fuel filler and lockable cap. Originally I went to lockable fuel caps on the main tanks as well but have gone back to the original caps that don't leak when the tank is full. If I forget to turn off the transfer pump when the main RH tank is full it doesn't matter as the fuel will go back through the breather tube into the aux tank. I did have to insert an inner breather tube inside the breather that comes from the RH tank to the aux tank filler neck if you know what I mean.
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Thanks Bearman,
I might get in touch when I get closer on this project.
Cheers Rob