Registry of Ex Military Land Rovers

International Trucks => International Truck Chat => International F1, F2 & F5 => Topic started by: Ravvin on June 14, 2016, 08:19:08 PM

Title: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on June 14, 2016, 08:19:08 PM
Hi all.
I now own 180-971, F1 6X6 with an Abbey hoist. Chassis number 3588, Census No. 6221-B, June 69. Not sure what the engine number is yet as it got too dark to see it.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-wcjSFxD/0/58fbdddb/M/i-wcjSFxD-M.jpg)

Young Eric went and had a look at it for me, out on the farm, and most of these pics in the post are his. I got the truck home this afternoon, and by the time I finished crawling over it, it was too dark to take decent pics.

It's in much better condition than my 4X4, but has a few issues I have to sort out before getting it registered.

First, some pics.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-xSzrRsT/0/54e81edf/M/i-xSzrRsT-M.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-RpmJbSt/0/6f2f4e72/M/i-RpmJbSt-M.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-3vhvxfH/0/fa125e36/M/i-3vhvxfH-M.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-GNmSw5b/0/26cadde2/M/i-GNmSw5b-M.jpg)

With the recent floods down here, they had to close the port of Devonport, which is where the ship carrying my truck unloads. They almost shipped it to Bell Bay instead, but I managed to stop them. It's over an hour away for a tilt tray and would cost a fortune.
I got a call on Saturday, telling me it was here and could be collected between 10 and 12, but there are only 2 tilt tray drivers around here with trucks big enough to carry it and neither were available.

Today I lined up the tilt tray guys and got away from work a bit early to go down and sign any paper work. When I got there I was told there was a problem as the battery was dead flat and the truck was facing the wrong way to load. When we got down there, it was parked right at the edge of the wharf, facing the water. The tilt tray guy was scratching his head as to why they thought it was a problem as he just hooked up and pulled it on backwards. He did have a bit of a problem when the front wheels of his truck lifted off the ground. I'd told him it was around 6.4t.
Something I noticed is that the only oil drips on the ground where it sat were from the leaking hydraulics of the Abbey hoist, so either there are no other leaks in the driveline, or they all need topping up. I had an old HQ panel van with a diff leak like that. When it stopped dripping, I knew it was time to top it up.

Anyway, once it was tied down we headed off and he dropped it just inside the gate out in the back paddock, just like the first one.
While he was stowing his tie-down chains, I jumped in and flicked the switch, pulled the choke out and hit the button, and it started first go! No idea what the mob at the wharf were doing. I'm betting nobody had ever seen a system like this and didn't know they had to turn the switch on. The panel lettering is pretty worn, but surely common sense would tell you that the only unreadable switch, right next to the starter button, would be the ignition?

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Mn8nw6N/0/f538735e/L/i-Mn8nw6N-L.jpg)

I let it run for a bit and noticed all my gauges are in metric. The speedo is in km/h, the oil pressure and air pressure gauges are in KPa and the temp gauge is in degrees C. They look original, but I'll have to look at the back and see if the wiring has been modified. The air pressure gauge was showing 200KPa and it started slowly rising as the engine ran. I have since looked at one of Young Eric's pics and the gauge was showing about that when he took it. Either the system was holding pressure or the gauge needs zeroing.
There was no light blinking or buzzer buzzing, which should be happening until it gets to around 400KPa or 60psi, so I'll have to look into that.

When I tried to move it, I found a few more minor issues. First up, the handbrake only moves abut an inch, and yet the truck stalls when I try to move, even in first. I had a look at the handbrake pivots and linkages and they are very dry, with no sign of any grease at all. I gave them all a squirt of Inox, but tomorrow I will get the grease gun out and give them a good lube up. If that isn't what's causing the excessive brake drag, I will have to pull each drum off and have a look and see if something is sticking. I really need to do this anyway, as both wear indicator pins on the brake master servos are right out and were very hard to push in. Lots more lubing needed.  ;D

The next issue I found is that it is stuck in high range 6x6. The lever is all the way forward and won't move at all. I found that if I flipped the detent lever up, it hissed briefly then stopped, but still wouldn't let the lever move. If I pushed the lever down, it moved easily but is leaking air, so I left it up for now. I suspect the linkages at the transfer case and the bottom of the lever have dried out and need greasing.

Another issue is that I looked behind me and saw the air valve for the winch was in the Disengage position. I flipped it up to the Engaged position but it just flopped back down. There was no resistance or hiss of air at all, so I think something is disconnected.

The clutch isn't getting full disengagement, so I'll check the master and slave cylinders for leaks. If they are ok it may just need bleeding.

Other issues are the seats. The driver's side has a good upholstered base but no back and the passenger side has noseat or back, and isn't bolted down. All things I can fix myself.

As you can see in the pics below, someone has lost control of the hoist and dinged the door and roof. The hatch won't seal and has been pushed down a bit. One of the guys at work will help me with that. He did a great job on the 3 Kombis my boss and his mates did up.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-HTdmG7M/0/61208b5f/M/i-HTdmG7M-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-JcZrBdn/0/83afeb9f/L/i-JcZrBdn-L.jpg)

The deck has some broken and rotted boards, so I will replace them all with some good hardwood. What sort of preservative should I use on it? Because the timber is in weird sizes compared to what is sold now, I will machine it up myself from rough sawn, and I can paint/coat all sides before it's bolted down. I was thinking something like a deck oil, as I've seen it used on outdoor decks that get rained/snowed on and it holds up well, but would like to know what others have used and how well it worked.

The muffler looks like it has been patched up a few times and is leaking, so I'll replace that. I still have one here but I better get a spare off Bushman while he has a few. While it's out, I'll take the tip in and get another one made up as my 4X4 needs one. It's going to be handy having this truck here when I put the other one back together as I can see where everything goes.  ;D

The indicators don't work at the moment. I saw a new flasher unit under the dash and LED tail lights, so it probably needs a resister in the indicator circuit to make the flasher work. There are other wires hanging loose at the back and some under the front, so I have to follow them back and see what they are off.

I was hoping this truck had a crank handle as it would be easier to copy it than working from drawings, but I was out of luck. I don't even have clips behind the passenger seat to hold one, so maybe it lived elsewhere? It has a wheel nut spanner, so I won't need to find one of those, but I'll have to get a jack. It has one of the centre posts for the drop sides in the toolbox, so I can use that as a pattern to make another. Then I just needs the sides, tailgate, seats and hoops.  ;D

Anyway, that will do for now. I'll have a better look tomorrow and maybe get some new pics.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Mick_Marsh on June 14, 2016, 08:33:01 PM
Well done on your astute purchase.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on June 14, 2016, 10:16:08 PM
What an absolute corker! I am green with envy!

Have a great time restoring it,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Bluebell One-eight on June 16, 2016, 07:44:06 PM
A good one!!! The frozen range lever may ( with luck ) just be transmission windup, caused by the truck being driven in 4WD on hard surfaced road. It looks like you have plenty of room so when the brakes are freed up drive the truck on a figure eight course while pulling back on the lever ( trigger activated ), try pressing the loud pedal and releasing it, to change loading on the drive line. It should come out fairly quickly, if not try bumping the lever with the palm of the hand with the engine cover off. If you can get an assistant it might help too. If that fails check if the detent plunger is working, it could be seized. Good luck with it you've got a much better buy than the Mk3, we'll all enjoy the progress with this one.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on June 18, 2016, 07:32:47 PM
Thanks all.

I managed to get it out of 6X6 high this morning. I rocked it backwards and forwards with first & reverse, while pulling back on the range lever.
All the linkages are dry and binding, from the PTO lever right through to the handbrake rods.

I thought the brakes issue might be the handbrake sticking so decided to free things up a bit. I pumped grease into the pivots on the back axles, but still couldn't move the handbrake lever. I pulled the clevis pin out at the handbrake pivot on the rear axle, and was only just able to pull the handle up. I will get underneath and clean the other pivot points on the bottom of the handbrake lever and the one on the back of the transfer case cross-member.
I'm now thinking someone may have wound the brake adjusters out too far, and caused the rear drums to bind due to lack of clearance. With the handbrake linkage disconnected, I could only move the rods to the back wheels about 1cm. Tomorrow I will jack up each rear wheel and see if it turns freely. I'm thinking I will have to jack up one wheel on each diff so I can turn one. We'll see I guess. Supercheap has a special on 3tonne vehicle stands, so I might grab 2 sets. Then I just need to find something solid enough to support the jack and stands. The paddock is pretty saturated right now, and very soft.

While I was working on the rear brake pivot, I noticed that the rear winch rollers were all bent up.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-kdmBw3m/0/5f688d2a/M/i-kdmBw3m-M.jpg)

The cable between the eyelet and winch drum is so tight it twangs when you tap it. I tried to see if the winch air cylinder was in the engaged or disengaged position, but I can't get a clear view of it. I can turn the winch driveshaft fairly easily, so it must be disengaged. With the truck turned off, I was able to move the PTO lever into gear and out without any problems, but I need to be able to get the winch to engage before I can run it in reverse to overcome the brake. At least I hope its only the brake.
I noticed the other day that there was something wrong with the winch activation valve in the cab as the lever just flopped around. I unbolted it and stripped it down and found that the screw that goes through the handle and into the actuator shaft had sheared off. This lets the handle move but has no effect on the shaft. The inside of the valve was full of orange sludge. I think it was a mix of water, oil and rust.
I've cleaned it out and will have to have a go at drilling out the broken screw.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-tJStZjd/0/a60e82b1/M/i-tJStZjd-M.jpg)

When I emptied out the cab to see what needed fixing, I found this thing in the first pic. I thought it would make a good base plate to sit the jack on, and then realised the 3 pins on it fitted into the bottom of the Abbey hoist's support feet, to spread the load on soft ground. Now I need to find another one for the other side. The other pic is what remains of the passenger's seat. Should be enough left to work out what it's supposed to look like.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-r5Xgnbj/0/95e881f0/M/i-r5Xgnbj-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Xmvkw23/0/4d60dc07/L/i-Xmvkw23-L.jpg)

I had a bit of a look at the hoist, trying to work out how it operates. It looks pretty good, structurally, but the control valve assembly needs a good clean up and rebuild.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-hFcb5Sg/0/5e10ca3b/M/i-hFcb5Sg-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-C78QxfG/0/7291335f/M/i-C78QxfG-M.jpg)

I'm not sure what the thing in the second pic is, as the plate is very faded. It has a dial gauge on top of it so it might be a strain gauge or similar so you can tell the weight of the load. I pulled all the levers, to see if any were stuck but they all moved freely. It was probably a mistake though as when I got down later I found oil leaking out of the breather on the driver's side. I'll have to have a look on the net and see if I can find an operating manual and workshop manual for it. There is a long plate screwed to the cab roof that shows what each lever does, but its almost totally faded away.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-dDD2FGQ/0/acdc43cb/M/i-dDD2FGQ-M.jpg)

This one is still in pretty good shape.

There are no tac plates in the holders, but it looks like there may be something under the most recent layers of paint. The pic below is the passenger side tac plate holder. It looks a bit like an 8, but could be part of something else. The other side has much thicker paint and I can't make anything out. I'll try removing some layers and see what appears.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-77ddBnq/0/1854f5f8/M/i-77ddBnq-M.jpg)

The next pic is the passenger side front hub. It appears to be leaking slightly. Does anyone know if there is a simple fix for this or is it likely to need a full hub strip down and overhaul? The driver's side also has a bit of oil showing, but only a shadow compared to this.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-x6rbxpk/0/852cc537/M/i-x6rbxpk-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-XdCLTCZ/0/106a8884/S/i-XdCLTCZ-S.jpg)

I dropped the spare wheel to give myself room to get underneath. The tire on it is stuffed, but the rim seems ok. The three tires that came with it are all really good, so I will switch one over. Turns out I have 5 galvanised rims and 2 regular. The galvanised ones seem to hold up much better than the other ones.

More to come tomorrow, if it isn't raining.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on June 19, 2016, 08:02:12 PM
Well, it didn't rain, so I got a bit more done.
I picked up a couple of sets of 3 tonne vehicle stands this morning, then jacked up all 4 rear wheels.
I was trying to work out which wheels were causing the brake drag issues. The 2 intermediate wheels spun freely. With all 4 off the ground I found that spinning one side caused to wheel on the opposite side turn backwards. Next I tried the rears. When I spun the driver's side, it was turning the opposite side wheel, but on the intermediate axle, and it was a lot more effort. When I tried spinning the passenger's side rear, it would go about half a turn then bind, drag and finally lock tight.
I got the wheel off, without it falling on me, and took the 2 dust covers off the back of the hub. The brake shoes look almost new, with plenty of pad material left.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-XgRcFvq/0/918f29ae/M/i-XgRcFvq-M.jpg)

I backed off the adjuster 3 turns and suddenly was able to spin the drum with no dragging. I don't know if they were over adjusted or whether the change in location from Victoria to Tasmania caused something to change. The workshop manual says to turn the adjuster in until the brakes just drag, then back it out 2 clicks, which should be clearly audible. Well, I backed it out 3 full turns to free it up and never heard or felt any clicks.
I decided that since I had the wheel off, I should probably pull the drum off and have a look to see if anything had leaked inside, swelling the brake shoe material. The manual just says "Remove the brake drum". I gave it a good flogging around the rear rim with a soft faced hammer, but it never budged. It would have been good if they had a few threaded holes in the face of the drum to screw bolts into to force the drum off, but they didn't. I'm going to have to borrow a really big 3 arm puller.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-DFTQGCz/0/cf9be285/M/i-DFTQGCz-M.jpg)

While poking around under there, I noticed there has been some leakage around the driver's side rear axle flange. I can't tell if this is recent or from an old leak, so I'll give it a clean and see if it comes back.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-PTP4RJk/0/659f6bfd/M/i-PTP4RJk-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-RJqMzpk/0/477aa8f0/M/i-RJqMzpk-M.jpg)

I managed to free up the 2 clevis pins in the rear handbrake pivot and got them out. When I undid the 2 bolts holding the pivot assembly to the diff housing, I found that the holes went all the way through. The oil tried to leak out, bit it was flowing like treacle and was creamy white. Looks like I have to drain, clean and refill the diffs. Oh well, it was on my list anyway.
I stripped down the pivot assembly and gave it a degrease to clean the grease off that I pumped in there yesterday. Next I taped up the threads and bearing surfaces and gave it a good sandblast. It came out really clean, but I need to get some more fine wet & dry to clean up some pitting on the bearing surfaces. The brass inserts look good, just need a bit of a polish to remove some tarnishing.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-pQpF8Sc/0/da18f728/M/i-pQpF8Sc-M.jpg)

While removing the pivot assembly, I noticed the axle breather cap was all gunged up and stuck, so couldn't be allowing any air to pass. Seeing that, I checked the ones on the other 2 axles and the 2 power dividers. All are stuck and blocked. This may be why I'm seeing oil leaks on the hubs. I'll pull them all off and give them a clean out.

While poking around looking for other issues, I found that the radiator cap had rusted through on the top where the rivet goes through. I picked up another one today, same pressure. It will be interesting to see if the water pump seal fails now due to the increased pressure. At least if it does, I know the part numbers for the kit and how to rebuild it.

I was able to drill into the broken screw in the winch air valve and got it out with an ezi-out. The thread in the shaft is undamaged but it might be tricky finding a replacement screw. The RPS says its a countersunk head 3/16" BSN screw, 5/8" long. I've never heard of a BSN thread. I checked with a pitch gauge and it seems to be 24 threads per inch. If I can't get one the same, I can always enlarge the hole a bit and tap it to a more common thread. This valve is described as a rotary type. My MK3 has the plunger type valve, which is also the only one shown in the F1 RPS, so I'm guessing the rotary type was replaced at some time. Interestingly, both the rotary and plunger types have the same PBR part number. I'll have to check my MK3 to see if the pipes are in the same place, that way if I can't get the rotary type valve working without leaking, I can switch it with the plunger one until I can find another.

At some point, and fairly recently, someone has removed many of the Mod plates. The brass pins are still there on the front of the transfer case and rear axle. There is still a plate on the Abbey hoist and I think there was one on the tappet cover.
I mentioned previously that it was holding air pressure really well. Turns out that the air pressure gauge faceplate was putting pressure on the needle, not allowing it to zero. When I fix the wiring under the dash I'll pull it out and free it up.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Mick_Marsh on June 19, 2016, 09:31:28 PM
From what I gather, the gal rims were used on the 6x6.
I have some gal rims that I'll swap for some non gal ones if you're interested.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on June 24, 2016, 05:54:43 PM
Thanks for the offer, Mick, I'll keep it in mind.
Today at work I made up a puller for the brake drums. I had a go at using it, but I have to make a brace for the rod that winds out to put the pressure on as it is wandering across the front of the hub.

I had pulled the 4x6 / 6x6 interlock trigger off as it was leaking air badly. I pulled it apart and cleaned it and put a new o'ring in and that fixed the leak.

I couldn't understand how it was that there was no air coming out of the pipe that feeds the winch valve, as the hose to the 4x6 / 6x6 interlock trigger feeds off the bottom of the brass fitting that comes through the floor of the cab. This afternoon I put on some old clothes, as its filthy with grease and oil in there, and tried to reach through far enough to feel where the pipe came off the brass fitting. While feeling around under there, I found the pipe that runs to  the 4x6 / 6x6 interlock trigger. When I followed it along with one finger, while twisting around backwards, standing on one leg and leaning to the left to get my arm past the Abbey hoist pipes and fittings, I found the end of the pipe. Which shouldn't be there. Back in the cab, I followed the pipe down from the  4x6 / 6x6 interlock trigger and found that someone had run it forward and teed it off the compressor governor. That explains why it still worked.

The feed to the winch control taps into the main feed pipe from the air reservoir, which continues on the the brakes, so I knew there was air there. I got under the truck, once more contorting myself into weird positions due to the hydraulic pump, hoses, handbrake and transfer case linkages and the main and front wheel drive shafts. I was able to get a spanner onto the flare nut, but could only get half a flat worth of turn on it. Then I had to flip the spanner to get the other half a flat. Slow, greasy, painful and laborious. Eventually, I got it loose enough to undo by poking it with one fingertip. After cutting a few cable ties, I got it out. While under there with the main driveshaft pressed into the side of my face, I noticed that the nuts on 2 of the bolts in it were only just hanging there by a couple of threads and the other 2 were half undone. Another job to add to the list.

Anyway, I brought the air line in to get a good picture and found the blockage is where the pipe is kinked just below the brass fitting. I can't blow air through it at all. Luckily, I had one made up to replace the hose on my MK3, so I'll have a go at fitting it tomorrow. I'll reconnect the air line to the  4x6 / 6x6 interlock trigger as well and remove the tee on the back of the compressor governor.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-DCH4Xcd/0/a7258188/M/i-DCH4Xcd-M.jpg)

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on June 26, 2016, 02:20:13 PM
It feels like a wasted weekend.  I spent most of yesterday struggling with the new hose I had made for the MK3. They couldn't get end fittings with a 90° bends in the right size and flare angle so they used straight types. The problem it that while the straight type would be fine in the MK3, on this one, the frame brackets for the Abbey hoist are in the way. After hours of struggling and swearing, I gave up on that idea and instead worked on the tee in the compressor governor.
This was fairly easy to replace as all I had to do was remove the fibreglass surround that the engine cover mounts to. To do this, I had to unhook the throttle and choke cables. Because of the way the air cleaner is mounted over the top of the carbies, and that I kept dropping my tools and having to climb out and crawl around under the truck to find them, this took about an hour. After the surround was off, it took less than a minute to unscrew the tee and put the original elbow and pipe back on. I was lucky enough to be able to reuse the hose ends on the 4x6 / 6x6 interlock trigger and on the short piece of hose that was still attached to the brass fitting that went through the cab floor to the winch control. I was able to use the length of air hose that had been run down to the compressor governor too, as it was way longer than necessary.

Today I hunted around and found the hose off my MK3. The ends were seized solid, so I soaked them in penetrant and worked the flare nuts gently back and forth until the freed up. I couldn't get the brass fitting that goes through the cab floor to the winch control to line up with the hole at first, but then realised the fuel tank switch and hoses was blocking it. Once I undid them from inside the cab, it went in and lined up easily, but connecting the other end to the tee under the truck was a nightmare and took close to 2 hours. If it was a MK3 or 4 it would be a simple matter, but this truck has the pump for the hoist in the way, as well as the large hose feeding into it and the 2 other hoses coming out of it. Also, the handbrake rod and high/low range rod run through there. I ended up disconnecting the high/low range rod and wiring it up out of the way as well as unbolting the front wheel driveshaft to give me room to work. It was still painful and cramped, but I eventually got it on and tightened up.

When I unbolted the front driveshaft, a big dribble of stinky gear oil ran out. I'm hoping it had just built up in there over the years, with small amounts leaking past the felt and leather seals on the flange.

Next I ran the truck to build up some air pressure, and then I tried engaging the winch. The valve in the cab hissed, then stopped, so that seemed promising. I tried engaging the PTO lever, but it wasn't moving, so I put the transfer case in neutral and the gearbox in reverse and slowly let the clutch out while pulling back on the PTO lever. It clonked into place and the engine loaded up a bit, so I only gave it about 15 seconds with the clutch out, as I figured that would turn the winch drum enough to free the cable. Then I shut it down and went to have a look.
Absolutely nothing had happened.
Right. Now to be methodical to find where the fault was.
I marked the winch drum, so I could tell if it moved. Then I marked the winch driveshaft, then I marked the main gearbox to transfer case shaft.
I jumped in the truck and ran it in reverse with the winch and PTO  engaged for about 30 seconds. When I got underneath, I could see that the main driveshaft had spun, and so had the winch driveshaft. The winch drum hadn't moved.
Ok, maybe the chain drive had broken. I disengaged the PTO but left the winch clutch engaged and was able to turn the winch driveshaft with a tire lever through the yoke. I could see the winch brake drum turn as I turned the shaft, so the chain drive was ok and the worm drive hadn't broken. The only things left that I could think of were that either the winch clutch wasn't engaged, that the winch engagement yoke was busted or the worm driven gear or splines are stripped. With the aid of a stick and hand mirror, I was able to see that the air cylinder on the clutch engagement arm was fully pulled in. This means that the winch clutch should be engaged.
So, as far as I can tell, either the yoke is broken, the spline on the winch shaft is stripped, or the worm gear is stuffed. All of these issues mean I have to drop the winch to get inside to fix this. From what I can see, the easiest way to drop the winch would be to first drop the transfer case to make room, then remove a couple of deck planks to allow me to drop a sling through so I can wrap it around the winch drum and lower it to the ground with the Abbey hoist. Sounds simple and I will be replacing all of the timber in the deck anyway.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-DjLpd7G/0/094c34b3/M/i-DjLpd7G-M.jpg)

I think I will have to get underneath the back and cut the winch cable just behind the rollers with a grinder, as the thimble end it stuck tight between the 2 rear pulleys and the rollers, with the steel plates putting a lot of pressure on it. The cable is under so much tension that it actually twangs when I tap it with a tire lever. I have attempted to lever it out with a crowbar, but the bar actually started bending. If I cut the cable, I will only lose a foot or so and with the tension off, I should be able to rotate the thimble enough to free it.
At the rate I have been getting things done lately, should only take me 3 months if nothing else goes wrong. And if I can get the hoist working without major rebuilt work first.

Ok, so does anyone see anything I have missed? Also, does anyone have any original literature on using the Abbey hoist? There is a plate on the roof that shows what each of the control levers does, but it has faded so badly it is mostly just a shiny silver sheet now. Luckily, the plate that explains how to stow the hoist is still readable.

And does anyone know the trick with removing the brake drums? From what I read, you should just be able to remove the wheel, back the brake adjuster off and the drum should just slide off the wheel studs, maybe needing a tap or 2 with a soft faced hammer. Mine won't. Even with my puller cranked up and me belting hell out of the back edge all round. I looked through the workshop manual for the MK3 and all it says is "Remove road wheel. Remove brake drum". Doesn't say how or what to do when it refuses to come off.

Help, Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dkg001 on June 26, 2016, 02:44:30 PM
Sounds like one of my days restoring trucks, I find out that I stuff around 80% of the time, but when things go well the other 20% it is amazing what you get done. I have a copy of the RPS Truck Cargo Medium W/Abbey Crane 6x6 Aust F1, it might be helpful, I can't think of what the problem might be with the hub, i do remember the last rear hub I took off was difficult.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on June 26, 2016, 03:42:36 PM
Yep, that describes it perfectly. And 20% is pushing it, some weeks.

And the joys of working alone. You are working under the truck, only to find the tool you need is either in the truck, down at the house or in your car.
Then, when you get out to do something in the cab that has to be done before you can continue, the tool you need is under the truck.
Or the small part you need to replace to be able to continue is only sold by one place in town and they are not open on weekends.
And the parts you ordered last week that would only take a day or so to get in don't arrive by the weekend, instead turning up on Monday.
Then they sit on the table at home all week, taunting you, as you don't get home early enough to be able to fit them as it gets dark so early this time of year.

Yep, the joys or restorations.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on June 27, 2016, 08:29:19 AM
G'day Greg,
If the winch rope has been dragged into the pulley and jammed - wouldn't that mean that the limiter has come on and therefore the winch will not turn, until the tension on the rope is released? I remember being told by an ex-RACT Sergeant, that if the limiter came on, the truck had to be physically moved to release it. Your plan to cut the rope should achieve the same result, but be very careful a rope under tension can be a very dangerous thing!

Regarding the brake drum; try beating it vigorously with a heavy hammer between the wheel studs - make sure the nuts are on the studs so that the threads don't get damaged. Hitting the face of the drum will crack any rust between the hub and the drum. It is a good idea to put a thin coat of Loctite Anti-seize on one face, when reassembling.

Hang in there champ, you are doing very well! If you do something every week the project will be finished before you know it,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: zulu delta 534 on June 27, 2016, 09:46:06 AM
Rather than cut a good cable I would try tying the winch rope to a tree, taking up the strain, then removing the top roller (very carefully) to ease the tension on that rope under some sort of control.
Regards
Glen
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on June 27, 2016, 08:52:19 PM
Hi Charlie. The limiter would most likely have come on, but all it does is cut the engine. When I manually turn the short driveshaft to the winch, I can see the brake drum turning in the winch brake housing. It's a purely mechanical system, the same as the MK3 & 4, except there's no shear pin, just an electric sensor that shuts the engine off to protect everything. The cut-out system is one othe the things to check on my electrical to-do list. And it's a long list. :)
Looking from underneath, there is a roller fitted to the underside of the deck, positioned close to the winch to allow the rope to move from side to side so it lays evenly. What has happened is the cable has slipped off the end of the roller and is hooked around the end and can't slip down again as the grease nipple has it trapped until the tension is released. Because it is hooked around the end, it seems that maybe half the cable was rewound and it all piled up on the inboard end of the winch drum, and this pile of cable has slipped and trapped the loose end under several loops or layers.
As for the brake drum, I got the same advice at work today. It's really just like an oversized Holden brake drum. :)
Once I get the shaft guide made up for my home-made puller and make some sort of line center so the shaft doesn't wander all over the place, I expect to be able to pop it off easily enough. With the lack of any description in the workshop manual, I was worried I had missed undoing something and was risking breaking things.

Glen, I'll try disengaging the air actuator, just in case the selector yoke inside the winch box is still intact. If the air actuator wont budge it, I can use my mirror-on-a-stick trick and snag the arm with a coat hanger and get a rope on it to manually disengage it. I have to take the top plate off anyway, to beat it back into shape. It's going to be a bugger to get at the nuts on the top of the 2 pulleys as the plate is so bent up. As you can see in the pic above, the square section of the thimble with the 4 bolts in it is actually stuck right back in the gap between the 2 pulleys.
I don't have any trees nearby that I would risk pulling on. The row of old eucs along the neighbour's fenceline are frequently falling over and have no root system. Even if I hooked onto one at ground level, it's likely to fall across the fence and my truck. Although, if I use the stuffed cable off my MK3 as well, I would get a good distance away. I'll have a think about it during the week.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 02, 2016, 05:52:47 PM
Got a bit done today, with the usual results of finding more needing to be done.
While looking around underneath today, I found that the 2 rear axle housings have numbers stamped into them.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-G3pQhtX/0/fd7e0778/M/i-G3pQhtX-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-H3fdDBq/0/7bca2c59/M/i-H3fdDBq-M.jpg)

The rear one is 5678 and the intermediate one is 5701. Are these likely to be linked to a chassis number, in the event that they are removed for rebuilding? I'll have to look and see if the front has one too.

I set up my home-made drum puller and soon realised I needed to modify it. It kept twisting and trying to tilt down and would then slip off. I fixed this by putting another car stand under it.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-j328w6v/0/ef30a6ed/M/i-j328w6v-M.jpg)

I tried tapping it around the back edge with the soft faced hammer and as much tension as I could put on the puller without stripping something, but it wouldn't move at all.
I squirted some CRC around the stud holes and the central rim, hoping it would free it up. Then I got a block of hardwood and the 4lb mini-sledge and started working around the rear rim of the drum.
After going around a few times, I realised the sound had changed. When I checked, it was starting to come off on one side, so I concentrated on the other side to keep it even. It soon started moving and then came free.
When I lifted it off and looked inside, I found that at some time recently, oil has leaked in and mixed with the brake dust. I thought it was a thick layer of rust in the bottom of the drum at first,
but it cleaned off with the fine wire wheel on the grinder and left the surface spotless. As it was probably brake pad dust that I was blowing around, I had my filter mask on.
The oil leak seemed pretty fresh and I am wondering if it is related to the blocked up breathers on the diffs and power dividers. I have to remember to pull those off and free them up soon too.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-q3LQzWs/0/f49e2079/M/i-q3LQzWs-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-nVfFtHD/0/4438dff5/M/i-nVfFtHD-M.jpg)

I cleaned the drum up, inside and out, then washed it down with wax & grease remover. Before putting it back on, I put a very light smear of nickle-seize around the lip that was binding before. It slid back on and I was able to pop it off with just a light tap.
As the outside of the drum was a bit rough and rusty, I cleaned all of the flaking paint and rust off with a heavy wire wheel on the grinder, then gave the outside a coat of Galmet Ironize, the rust converter/surface sealer.
Tomorrow when I get home I will prime it, if it isn't raining.

I figured I might as well do the drum on the intermediate axle while I had it jacked up. After taking the wheel off, I used a scraper to clean the ridge of gunk out of the central rim where the drum fits to the hub.
It looks like they had the axle out recently and made a new gasket out of paper. It seems to be working as there are no signs of fresh oil leaks on this hub. Of course, this could also mean there is no oil in the diff.
I set the puller up and got some tension on it, then started on the back edge of the drum with my block of wood and the hammer. After working around a few times,
I managed to get my little finger caught between the hammer handle and the dog-bone suspension thing. Right on the last joint.
I should have packed up then. Next round of belting, the block slipped and I hit the outer lip of the drum full on with the hammer. Instant disaster.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-X3dNxTV/0/f919f43b/M/i-X3dNxTV-M.jpg)

How disastrous is this? Do I need to swap it for one off my MK3? Can I stick some metal bond stuff on it to glue the chunk back in and hope nobody notices? The outer lip seems to be mainly designed to keep splashed water and mud out of the drum.

I was so mad. I took a break from belting things and measured all of the brake tubing as I have to replace it. There are signs of leaks and corrosion at pretty much every flare nut.
I have the bending tool, bending springs and a double flaring tool, so all I need is new tubing and some flare nuts. Measuring all of the pipes was fun.
I used a bit of string with a magnet on the end and working it along the pipes, following all the bends and then measured the string. I need about 17m of 1/4" tubing so I'll get a 20m roll.
I know the hydraulics guys I dealt with earlier didn't have the proper end fittings for brake lines, so I'll have to plan a trip to Launceston some time to go to a proper brake place and buy a heap.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: GGG on July 02, 2016, 07:54:07 PM
Greg, don't you hate it when something like that happens? I think that we have all done that sort of thing and wished that we could reverse the video. I am pretty conservative with such things being a mere electrician but if it was mine I would cut my losses and look for another drum and not take a chance with it. It may now have cracks that you cannot see which could lead to problems further down the track. There may be better qualified people reading this who may disagree but I prefer to play it safe. Don't give up as you are doing a great job with both trucks. Your photos bring back a lot of good memories for me.
Geoff O.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dkg001 on July 03, 2016, 08:01:57 AM
Swap it over with one of the Mk3, it won't be hard to find a replacement drum, I have a spare one you can have, if you can work out a way to get it delivered.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on July 03, 2016, 10:07:35 AM
I agree - replace the drum. It is important to remember that the brakes are a safety system, so every single part of the system needs to be in top order.

Don't feel too bad about breaking it; I have done exactly the same thing on an old car I have, when I was teaching myself to service cars.  :-[

If you tap the drum face between the studs with a hammer, there is less risk of breaking the drum and greater chance of breaking the rust bond.

Make sure you use a double-flare when you do the brake pipes - it is a very rewarding feeling when the new pipes go on. Can you not use the old flare nuts? I usually do, unless the hexagon has been damaged,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 03, 2016, 06:43:48 PM
Thanks for that.
I'll switch it for one off the MK3 for now so it doesn't hold things up. That might be fun to get off.
If anyone ever comes down to Tassy, I've had enough truck bits offered to me so far that they would need a big trailer. Or an F2! I don't have one of those yet. The landlord may not like that though. 2 in the back yard might be the limit.  ;D

I got back from up at mum's place, where it's been raining all day, to find that it was fine here and the Ironize has cured nice and hard, but that it was now too dark, damp and cold to prime it. Oh well, the boss just left for a 3 week overseas holiday and left everything for me to handle, so it might be a short day tomorrow.

I pulled the pressure gauge and the pipe out of the dash as someone had bundled all the dash wires up and cable-tied them to the air pipe. Then they rewired the indicators, which now don't work, but in doing so, they bent the pipe and it put pressure on the fitting in the gauge, pushing the dial out of place. The needle won't go below 200 kPa. I'll have a go at fixing the gauge, but I'm replacing the steel air pipe with flex hose. This way it shouldn't happen again.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 09, 2016, 09:04:45 PM
I got the first brake drum primed and painted during the week. It came up looking really good.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-8HdkcRm/0/a8672d1a/L/i-8HdkcRm-L.jpg)

Lets hope the rest turn out as good.
When I put it back on, I put a light coat of nickel-seize on the face of the hub where the drum seats and a thin smear around the lip of the drum. Hopefully it will be easier to get off next time.
I put the tire back on, with more nickel-seize on the stud threads and lowered it down. And the damn tire was flat.
I don't know when it happened. I'm pretty sure I would have noticed if it was flat before I took it off. I'll pump it up tomorrow and check the valve.
It's on one of the galvanised rims and the paint is flaking off in large plates, so if I have to pull it off, I'll give it a clean up and paint as well. While the tread depth is still really good, there is a weird patch on the outer sidewall, almost like a melted area about the size of your hand. It feels a lot softer than the rest of the sidewall. To be safe, I will put one of the spare tires on.
I have changed one of these before, but it was over 20 years ago and I don't really remember what I did. Luckily, one of my contractors lined up his on-site tire guy and he is going to show me how to do it.

Seeing as it was flat, I jacked it back up and put a stand under it. Then jacked the opposite side wheel up.
The wheel came off easily and I gave everything a bit of a clean with the wire brush, as there was a lot of flaking paint. On the back, while backing out the brake adjuster, I noticed it had been leaking diff oil. I can't tell if it was leaking past the hub seal or out between the hub and the diff flange, as the caked oil & dirt covered one of the flange nuts. While I was there, I unscrewed the breather valves off both diffs. Nothing happened with the rear one, with the oil leaks, but the one on the intermediate axle actually hissed and popped the valve out when I unscrewed it the last few turns. Definitely some pressure there and it was only around 12 degrees today.
With the wheel off and the adjuster backed out, I started belting the back of the rim with the 4lb hammer and block of hardwood. I had earlier sprayed all of the stud holes and the hub lip with CRC and I think this helped. It only took about 15 minutes of flogging before the drum let go this time.
Looking inside, it showed a large area where the oil and brake dust had stuck to the drum.

I figured I may as well take one of the drums off the MK3 while I had all the gear there. With it jacked up and on a stand, I took the wheel off and gave the drum a good scrub. I backed the adjuster out but could still not turn the drum. Looking in from the back, I could see that the shoe wasn't retracting from the adjuster. I was able to get a punch in there and gave it a few taps. The shoe popped back and the drum loosened up.
Even with the CRC, it took close to 2 hours of flogging before the damn thing came off.
I put the drum I knocked the lip off onto the MK3 and refitted the tire.

We are supposed to get some really crap weather over the next few days, so I wrapped the hub and brake shoes with a tarp. It should stay dry.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-HwKVswn/0/d6796121/M/i-HwKVswn-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-nbtZ7ZS/0/71626649/M/i-nbtZ7ZS-M.jpg)

At first glance, the drums look the same. When you look closer, the one off the MK3 is actually made of 2 sections. The face with the stud holes is a single flat disk that is welded to the outer tube that makes up the main drum body. The face is very soft and when I cleaned it up, I found a lot of marks made by hammering it between the studs while trying to free it up.
While cleaning both drums with the wire wheel on the grinder, I noticed that there was another difference.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-HWzXWtg/0/027cee39/M/i-HWzXWtg-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Pc3NjJq/0/85c8e4ee/M/i-Pc3NjJq-M.jpg)

As you can see in the first pic, there is a lip machined out of the back where is seats on the hub on the drums on the F1. The second pic is the inside of the drum off the MK3. I was a bit worried at first, thinking it wouldn't be any good, but then I realised that it was probably a mod dome so there was less metal contacting the hub, making it easier to remove. The drums locate on the inner face of the drum and both drums have the same thickness of metal there so it should be ok.

Another difference I found is that the old MK3 drum is a very different grade of steel. The new ones clean back to a nice clean grey metal colour. the older one stayed black, no matter how much I cleaned. I also noticed a lot more sparks from the wire wheel on the old drum.
I painted both of them with Ironize and I will prime them tomorrow.
Oh well, just 3 drums to go.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 15, 2016, 06:48:42 PM
During the week, I managed to clean, prime and paint the 2 brake drums.
If I get an answer to my question about what that lubricant in the brake unit is, I will get them back on and the last 3 off this weekend, with a bit of luck.

I had a bit of a look behind the dash to see what they had done to the wiring and it was pretty horrifying.
They have tried to rewire the indicators, using a new modern flasher unit, so the LED tail lights would work, but I don't think they had an actual wiring diagram. Or much of an understanding of basic electrical theory.
The bundle of wires coming out of the steering column that go to/from the indicator switch were mostly disconnected. Originally, there were 4 separate wires, each one running to one of the indicator bulbs. They had disconnected 2 of them and left them dangling. They then ran a length of 3 core extension lead from under the dash to the rear end of the truck as they couldn't work out which yellow wire ran where. They connected one of the Left indicator wires from the switch to the blue extension lead wire and a Right indicator wire to the brown. The earth wire was just left dangling.
Next, instead of working out the front indicators, they bought 2 little white LED lights, like trucks use for clearance lights, (or to make people think they are being overtaken by a mobile Christmas tree on dark nights), and joined the wires from these to the same bare copper joins they made with the extension lead under the dash. These little lights were then screwed to the front lip of the blackout light housings.
They left the original (live) metal fuse holder that supplied power to the flasher unit from the ignition switch just dangling freely under the dash. To get power to the new unit, they ran a wire with a 25A fuse from the battery to a toggle switch mounted to the dash and labelled "spot lights". From holes drilled in the tops of the radiator guard, I think they had spot lights mounted. The wiring is now gone, with just a small wire  with a 30A fuse running from the back of this switch to the new flasher unit. The wire from the other lug on the flasher unit is now joined to the feed wire to the indicator switch.
In theory, this should work and it took a bit before I discovered why it didn't. When they ran the spotlights, they never used a relay. The full current was running through that little switch screwed to the steel dash panel. When it melted internally, it shorted to the steel panel and blew the fuse near the battery. There was no outward sign that the switch was stuffed. I had replaced the fuse, which instantly popped when I closed the fitting, which made me get the multimeter out.
While I could just remove the switch and run the power feed from the original ignition-switched fuse holder and have it work, the rewiring they have done is just twisted wire joins and cheap electrical tape. It also leaves lots of live wires exposed and the indicator lights on the dash inoperative.
I'll get a decent flasher unit that can handle a mix of LED and regular bulbs, connect it up to the proper fused feeder wire and reconnect all of the original yellow wires.
I pulled one of the front indicator bulbs out to check what it was and it's just a standard 21/6w bayonet type. I'll get a couple of ultra-bright LED replacements to help with visibility.

The horn button on the steering wheel is stuck on, so they disconnected the wire coming out the bottom of the steering column from the horn and ran a new one to a little push-button next to the dodgy melted switch on the dash. They then powered this from the same wire that went to the flasher unit. So, melted switch/blown fuse meant no indicators or horn. I'll sort that out too.

While pulling an indicator bulb out, I thought I should see what these trucks used for a headlight bulb too. To save accidentally wrecking something important, I pulled the passenger side headlight out of my MK3, as it was already stuffed.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/170-952/n-h9LBZN/i-8CWr8tt/0/c184411c/M/i-8CWr8tt-M.jpg)

As you can see, the battery acid leaking down over the years has done something weird to the back of the headlight reflector. I could actually poke my finger through it. It felt like cellophane.
Anyway, I got the unit out and I'll take it in and see what replacement options are. It looks very similar to what used to be in my old Holden. Hopefully, I can get a modern housing that lets me run better bulbs. I'll fit relays too, to save cooking wiring and switches.
The dimmer switch for the headlights is missing too. Just a part of the base is still screwed to the floor. Our budding auto-lecky has also struck here. They simply bared all the ends and twisted the 4 wires together. Only 1 still has a number, 18, so it's the low beam. I will be able to work out the rest easily enough as one is the power supply and the other 2 are the high beam and the high beam indicating light on the dash. The way it is now, as soon as the light switch is turned on, it's trying to run both high and low beams at the same time. Surprised it hasn't had a melt-down. Nothing is soldered, just twisted together and a bit of tape wrapped around them and left to dangle down on the driver's feet.

While I'm poking around there I'll have to see why the air buzzer isn't doing anything.

Has anyone upgraded the headlights on their Inter without changing the actual look of the lights? I can always stick some LED spotlights on the brush guard, but you can't legally use them for regular low-beam driving, and I am trying to concentrate on doing what I need to do to get registered. (Except I seem to get sidetracked so easily). Then the real work will begin.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on July 16, 2016, 08:07:23 AM
Good work Greg!

With regard to the headlight upgrade; one of the cheapest and best upgrades is to fit heavier cable to the lamp i.e. high-beam; dip and earth. As close as you can get it to the lamp, fit a relay connecting it with the new heavier cable. The cable to the switch, can of course, remain as a lighter duty one.

I did this to my Discovery and Alpine (same lamps as the Inter) and the increase in brightness was so good, that I never used the new globes I had,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 16, 2016, 04:57:45 PM
Thanks for that Charlie.
I had the same problem in my old Range Rover. The previous owner had put higher wattage bulbs in and it had melted the insides of the switch. I fitted relays and immediately got brighter lights and no more melting plastic smell from the dash.

Today I didn't get much done. I had to take the cat in to the vet for his yearly grease and oil change. Earliest I could get in was 10, so that disrupted most of the morning.
I made a list last night of bits I would need and managed to get an assistant at the local Repco that actually knew his stuff.
I showed him the mounting system for the old headlights and he dug through his books and told me he could get new bulbs for them, but they would still be 40/50W. There was nothing listed that was brighter. The other issue with using different bulbs would be that the shape of the reflector means that I would have low and high beam, but they would both shine straight ahead, potentially blinding oncoming drivers. No chance of that with the bulbs in it now.
He made a few calls and found another alternative. I still use the inner and outer mounting rings, but the whole reflector is replaced with a modern version that takes regular H4 bulbs. I will have to make an adaptor for the cables, but that is easy enough. I got the semi-sealed reflectors for $60 a pair, which is almost half price.
While there, I got a new high/low beam dip switch, a non-load dependant indicator flasher unit, new park/indicator bulbs, heatshrink and some heavy duty bullet connectors and spade lugs. The new headlight reflectors won't be in until later next week, but that's ok. I don't have the time to do them tomorrow.

Once home, I started by disconnecting and removing all of the added in wiring. It was surprising just how much there was, and this is without counting the heavy extension lead cable running to the back indicators.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-gXLMGtv/0/7ee6da7a/M/i-gXLMGtv-M.jpg)

With that all out of the way, I started reconnecting the original wires. As the rear indicators are not connected to the original wiring, I left those unplugged for now. I rewired the high/low beam dip switch and now the headlights work, although they are pretty dim. I'm only getting 11v at the dip switch, so I have a few connectors to clean or replace. The front parkers worked also.
I have power to the flasher unit, but it is not making it back through the indicator switch. I pulled the horn button out and found everything is missing from under it. I think there is supposed to be a spring and a contact, with a red wire running down the steering column and going to the horn. A previous owner had rewired the horn to work off a button on the dash, but I found the original wires at the bottom of the radiator. They have been cut short, so I will have to get under there when it's dry and try to work out where they connect to so I can replace them.
With the horn button out, I was able to undo the nut holding the steering wheel, but can't find my steering wheel puller. I've seen it a dozen times recently, and even remember putting all the different threaded bolts back in the kit after knocking it over, but can't remember where that was. I need a big shed.
Once I get the wheel off, I can pull the indicator switch out and give it a clean. At the worst, Iveco still sell the whole assembly, so I can get a new one if this one is too far gone.
While trying to get the steering wheel off, I happened to look up at the circuit breaker panel and saw something odd with the wiring. I removed the cover and peeled back about 6" of tape and found that at some point, the wire bundle had rubbed against the top of the cover sheet, cutting through the tape and wearing into one of the wires. When I managed to separate the wires, as a couple were stuck together, I found that the worn wire had actually melted for about 4". It looked like a sausage when it splits open. The yellow insulation had curled back and melted to an adjoining wire, but luckily didn't short it out. Following the melted wire, I found it had been cut and joined to a short piece of green & yellow earth wire which went to one terminal of the low air buzzer. Which doesn't work. As the wire has been cut, I'll undo it and slip a length of heat shrink over the split section, then retape it and reshape it so it can't rub again.
While there, I checked with the multimeter and when the ignition is switched on, there is 12v to the buzzer. I ran a wire from the other terminal to ground, but it still didn't buzz, so I have to pull the whole circuit breaker panel out to get at the back of it. I'll get the damn thing working sooner or later, then work out how to disable it if it annoys me.  ;D
Something I forgot to check was the side clearance lights. Looking at the circuit diagram, they should connect to the 4th circuit breaker and come on with the Tail Light switch. May be an issue there as the tail lights didn't come on when I flipped that switch, but it is one of the things the previous owner has played with. I also noticed that there was nothing connected to the top of the 5th circuit breaker, which should be the wipers. I know the wiper arms are in a bucket on the cab floor and the drive cable is unscrewed above the windscreen, so there will probably be some work there. Something I noticed on the circuit diagram is that it shows both front and rear width lights. I don't recall seeing rear width lights on any of these trucks. I'm not even sure where you could safely mount them. Maybe it was an option that they later dropped. I don't have the actual Workshop Manual for the F1 & F2, just the RPS and Technical Manual.

As for the brakes, I did some more reading and found something. The MK3 Workshop Manual mentions filling the cavity behind the rubber cap in the pic below with Girling Brake Grease.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-LrXGQZz/0/a57369ca/M/i-LrXGQZz-M.jpg)

I searched the net and found a few mentions, unfortunately they are contradictory. One said it was a type of red rubber grease. Another said it was a type of Moly grease. A third said to use Girling red grease but never Girling white grease. The little bit of grease I found in one of the cavities was black and almost dry. It looked like Moly grease, but I've never seen Moly grease dry to an almost solid paste.
What I am finding after removing the drums is that some of the pistons that push the shoes apart are not sliding back in freely. The ones on the adjusters are even worse. Some of those I have had to tap back in with a drift and hammer before they would allow the drum to turn, even with the adjuster wound right out. If I have to, I'll pull them all down and clean/lube everything, but if I can get away with just repacking the cavity with grease and working the pistons in and out a few times until they are all lubed up, I'll do that.
 
Oh just remembered. I found this thing under the seat. I'm pretty sure it's off the truck somewhere as the bullet connectors match others under the dash.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-JjrDLqb/0/ecd8247f/M/i-JjrDLqb-M.jpg)

It looks like a position switch, similar to what would be on a handbrake. Can anyone identify whether it is meant to be part of my truck or not? The end seems to be broken off and I can't find any numbers or letters on it.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dodgeguy1942 on July 16, 2016, 10:30:10 PM
Can you tell Me which way the tap has to be turned to select either fuel tanks
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 16, 2016, 10:57:15 PM
(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-WrbWhVf/0/aefffa8e/M/i-WrbWhVf-M.jpg)

There you go.
So clockwise for front.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dodgeguy1942 on July 17, 2016, 08:09:33 AM
Thankyou. Hoping to get my f1 started for the first time this week
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on July 17, 2016, 08:47:13 AM


As for the brakes, I did some more reading and found something. The MK3 Workshop Manual mentions filling the cavity behind the rubber cap in the pic below with Girling Brake Grease.

I searched the net and found a few mentions, unfortunately they are contradictory. One said it was a type of red rubber grease. Another said it was a type of Moly grease. A third said to use Girling red grease but never Girling white grease. The little bit of grease I found in one of the cavities was black and almost dry. It looked like Moly grease, but I've never seen Moly grease dry to an almost solid paste.

Greg.

Forget the rubber grease, that is for lubricating the seals when installing them in the cylinders.

I have read about white grease in workshop manuals, but never used it.

I think your best plan is to ring a brake specialist and ask which grease to to use for lubricating linkages. It is of course very-high melting-point, so that it can't contaminate the linings,

Cheers Charlie

PS Found these links which you have probably already seen:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2005/ic80560.htm
http://jrwadhams.co.uk/brake-linkage-grease.html
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on July 19, 2016, 01:30:15 PM
Greg

When you get to the crane work lights, the inside of mine are badly corroded and I have sourced some round 18w LED lights from an auction for $9 each and these can be fitted within the existing plastic hella mountings to make the unit look the same but not require replacement globes ever. I am making up an exact size Perspex cover to contain the LED light within the front hella mount. I will test them to make sure that they don't get too hot inside the original mountings. Should be able to even re fit the original push/pull switches to original specifications. 

Keep up the great work - I really enjoy your reports, they have made me more committed to put more time in on my FI crane truck.

Learning a lot!  Thanks

Frank
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 23, 2016, 03:24:00 PM
Thanks for that Frank. I haven't had a close look at the lights on the Abbey yet. I know one was taken off and it and the bracket are in the toolbox.
Charlie, I went into the local truck mechanic who is also the Iveco dealer and he agreed with you. He suggested a high melting-point grease, preferably with Moly as it forms a protective coat on exposed metal that helps prevent rusting until it gets serviced again.

I tried to do some forward planning by getting the bits I would need before the weekend for a change, but it ended up being pointless.
As the oil in the rear diff is contaminated with water and there are signs of it leaking on the back plate and brake drum, I decided I had better pull the axle, dismantle the brakes and hub, check the bearings and generally go over the whole thing. I managed to get the grease for the brake bits and the other grease for the wheel bearings but couldn't get the seals.
Iveco has no listing for either the inner or outer seal part numbers from the RPS. The local bearing place found that the inner seal is a cross-match for the SKF 38709 or 38703 but the outer one has them scratching their heads. It is listed as being 2.594" x 3.064" x 0.484", which is apparently a really weird size. I know why now.

Anyway, they suggested pulling it out and bringing it in to see if they could match it. I started out by draining the oil from the diff.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-R4g8KDc/0/aabdb2bb/M/i-R4g8KDc-M.jpg)

That doesn't look right. The stuff is so thick it was flowing like treacle. Didn't smell nice like treacle though.
Next I had to pull the axle. After a quick run into town to grab a couple of high tensile 1/2" UNC bolts, I cleaned the threads out in the axle flange and screwed them in.
The axle came out pretty easily, but the second the silicon bead between the axle flange and hub broke, this nasty slurry ran out. It looks like the oil has been mixing with the grease in the hub.
I slid the axle out and found this nasty stuff all along it.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-p98Qzhn/0/dc2a7a74/M/i-p98Qzhn-M.jpg)

It looked like rust flakes and it wiped off with a rag soaked in diesel. There is no pitting of the axle at all, so I am assuming it is from the inside of the axle housing. It wasn't actual hard flakes, or even grit. It was more like a rust paste. I'm not sure what to do about that. It would be a real nightmare to have to pull the diff centre out to clean it out. I'm thinking I might be able to pull the other side axle, dismantle both hubs and remove the stub axles (?), so that I only have the bare axle housing and diff centre. Then I could spray a lot of degreaser through it and maybe scrub it out a bit with a rag firmly fixed to a broom handle or something, and flush it all out through the diff drain bung. After that I could use something like a hot air paint stripper gun on it's lowest setting to blow air through it to dry out any moisture before putting it all back together. What do you all think?

These next pics are of the inside of the hub, showing the outer lock nut with seal, and the axle shaft with that same seal sitting on it.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-F4CNBH5/0/93787f9b/M/i-F4CNBH5-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-z8QpMtc/0/1fdc2b8f/M/i-z8QpMtc-M.jpg)

This is where it gets weird. The seal fits into a recess machined into the outer lock nut. The inner opening of the seal is 2.28" or 57.89mm. The bearing area on the axle is 1.71" or 43.5mm. There is no way it could seal anything. The oil from in the diff can flow straight through and mix with the oil. Is this right?
Two things occur to me. The first is that maybe the rubber bit of the seal actually is meant to press up to the face of the axle flange, making a seal there. The second is that the seal is supposed to run on the machined bearing area of the axle, but that this is not the original axle. I could pull one of the other axles and compare things, but if they have all been changed out, it won't tell me anything.

If anyone has worked on one of these before and thinks they know what is going on, please let me know. I can't go any further or order parts until I get this cleared up.

On another matter, during the week my new headlights turned up. They are a semi-sealed housing, meaning they look like a standard old 7" sealed beam headlight, but they can take regular H4 halogen bulbs.
The best thing about these is that they actually have the exact same locating tabs, in the same places as the original Inter headlights, so they are a straight swap. The only difference will be that I need to fit relays and make up a short lead to connect the pins on the lights to the relays, and then connect them into the existing wiring. I will keep the original wiring and socket fittings and just connect wires to the high and low bean wires so I can trigger the relays, so that it's not trying to run the whole load through the truck's circuit breakers. I'll just have to do some tests to see if the original alternator can handle the higher wattage lights.

While I was out annoying the Iveco dealer, I picked up a new tappet cover gasket and an oil filter. $35 for the filter and it's genuine, made in NZ. Repco can get the Ryco equivalent ones in but they are $65. Next up, a new air filter. I thought of getting this one cleaned, but it looks like it has been washed before as the pleats are all wavey.

It's time to light the heater. Only 7.3 degrees outside, but it's blowing a gale and there are occasional showers of sleet and almost-snow. And I'm on the coast. My mum is inland a bit and 700m above sea level. She rang just before to say it had been snowing on and off since 3 this morning and there was just a bit over 6" on the ground.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 24, 2016, 03:27:16 PM
Well, it looks like that is the correct seal and axle.
I pulled the axle on the other side and it's the same.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-L8dhCCD/0/c15c8104/M/i-L8dhCCD-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-NpZDhM9/0/8ade4cbd/M/i-NpZDhM9-M.jpg)

Not sure what happened to the colour in the first pic. That liquid dribbling out at the bottom is bright blue. It looks like this one has been leaking too.
So from what I can see, the flange face presses against the outer lip on the seal and that keeps the oil in the main axle housing from mixing with the grease in the wheel bearings.

Here's a close-up of the lock nut and seal.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-BZ5h6Lj/0/50758f50/M/i-BZ5h6Lj-M.jpg)

I'll take it in tomorrow and see if they can find anything comparable.
Seeing as there is a machined section on the axle, right up near the flange, I wonder if it would be possible to get a seal that fits into the nut recess and runs on the machined section?
I'll ask and see.
What have people been using if the original part number, 52753HA, is unknown at Iveco? What is really odd is that the MK4 and F1 RPS's both list that as the part number, and they both describe it as a "Seal, Plain Encased" but the F1 RPS says it is 2.5" shaft Dia, by 3.1?2" bore dia. by 9/16" wide and the MK4 RPS says it is 2.594" shaft dia. by 3.064" bore dia. by 0.484" wide.

Hopefully they will have something similar. If not, I'm not sure what to do. It can't be good to have the diff oil mixing with the grease in the wheel bearings.

While I was out there I collected up the cover plates that I had taken off the backs of the hubs to check the brake pad linings.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-SdDfq2K/0/81464784/M/i-SdDfq2K-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-RrFttwX/0/aa0ba1c7/M/i-RrFttwX-M.jpg)

They come up pretty clean after being sand-blasted. I'll prime and repaint them all, as I can do them inside when we have crap weather like we are getting now.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on July 29, 2016, 04:50:38 PM
If you can't buy seals,   it may not be a bad thing if the oil reaches the bearings. In fact Land Rovers used to have this facility.

Oil is a much better lubricant than grease; wheel bearings running in oil last for hundreds of thousands of km,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: GGG on July 29, 2016, 06:01:16 PM
I agree with Chazza, keeping the oil out of the hubs on a series Landrover is about the same as King Canute commanding it to stop raining. I only took Mk 3's for a 12,000 mile service (which included wheel bearings off) twice and on both occasions there was oil in the hubs and the crafties didn't seem too concerned. Mind you with a Landrover you have to grease the bearings initially as it takes a while for the oil to arrive in the hubs.
Geoff O.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 29, 2016, 08:41:27 PM
Thanks for that. I chased all along the coast, tried all of the different bearing suppliers and engineering places but nobody had ever seen anything like these seals before. Iveco has no listing for the IHC part number and none of the other places could find it in any of their cross-reference books.

The 2 seals I have seen so far look to be in decent condition, no cuts, cracks or apparent wear, so I will reuse them. I will get new inner seals as they are cheap and that is where the leaks have occurred. I think that if the diff breathers hadn't been blocked with mud nests, then there would have been no pressure build-up and the oil wouldn't have been forced past the outer seal to mix with the oil.
As you can see in the earlier picture, the diff oil was a foul orange colour. The grease in the driver's side hub was definitely mixed with it, but the passenger's side was still bright blue, just very runny, even at 8 degrees.

I plan to spend what little time I have on Sunday pulling the driver's side apart, cleaning and repacking the bearings and hub, then stripping and servicing the brake and adjuster expanders. With the brakes off and the stub axle (?) unbolted, I should be able to clean out the axle housing. I think if I jack that side up and spray diesel or degreaser down the tube, I should be able to scrub it out with a rag fixed to a broom handle. If I had a steam cleaner I could stick it in the tube and really clean it out. I might try spraying degreaser down it and then blasting it with the pressure washer. With the drain bung out of the diff and a bucket under it, I should get the worst of it out. I'll pull the axle out on the other side so I can do the entire axle. Once it's clean, I can use a hot air paint stripper on low heat to blow air through the diff to dry it out before sealing it all up until I can put it back together.
Just my luck it will rain all Sunday then fine up when I go back to work.

Another job on the urgent list is to pop the passenger's side roof back up. It has sunken down after having the boom ding in the side and when water pools around the turret hatch, it leaks in and puddles on the floor. I think a scissor jack and block of wood should do the job until I can get it un-dented and fixed properly.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on July 29, 2016, 09:20:13 PM
Hi Ravvin,

Try using the frayed end of a flexible steel wire cable on the end of a power drill to clean out the diff tubing.  Before cutting the FSW cable, bronze it solid with the oxy to give the drill chuck a good foundation to grip onto. When cutting the wire this bronze stops the cables from spreading and running. I have bronzed the cable onto an old 1/2 drive socket and used a pneumatic socket wrench or a drill as a power source. Measure the length you want with a bit to spare. The other end can be the frayed end of your winch cable. Just spread the ends to give you the diameter you want. Even the old frayed winch cable has a good use. I have used this offshore many times in cleaning piping and it works well without gouging depending on the thickness of the FSW being used and the amount of teasing given and speed of the drill.

I really enjoy your thread and look forwards to every new installment,

Frank
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Lionelgee on July 29, 2016, 10:34:35 PM
G'day Greg,

Do these links take you to the same part number 52753HA? It accesses a range of exchange parts from different manufacturers.

Accessed 29th July 2016 from, http://www.yoyopart.com/oem/10239937/ihc-52753ha.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I found another forum in the US of A which describes ...

M5H6 International Harvester Rear Axle Oil Seal Kits
Post a reply
3 posts • Page 1 of 1
M5H6 International Harvester Rear Axle Oil Seal Kits

Post by M38A1 MP Jeep » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:06 pm
I have M5H6 International Harvester Rear Axle Oil Seal Kits for sale - IH part number 141163-H

Consists of:

2 52753HA Rear wheel Bearing Nut Seals
2 54533H Rear Hub Wheel Seal
1 77819H Pinion Shaft Oil Seal
1 59871H Pinion Shaft Oil Seal Felt

This is new old stock, 1953 dated, parrafin sealed boxed and not dried out or shrunken.

$30 plus shipping per kit.

Thanks

Jon

The forum link was accessed 29th July 2016 from http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=160493

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another site accessed 29th July 2016 from https://nationalstocknumber.info/part-number/I1-52753HA_003925368

I1-52753HA Plain Encased Seal
Cage 76680
Technical Definition
Seal, Plain Encased, also referenced with federal logistics item name code 04214 - A pliable rubber, felt, leather, or composition ring-shaped element, split or solid; with or without spring or spreader, having a metal shell on all or a portion of at least two of the outer surfaces. it may be designed to be either bolt mounted or pressmounted between fixed and moveable parts to form a tight and effective seal by the pressure of the spring or spreader or the resiliency inherent in the element material. excludes packing with retainer.
Technical Characteristics
Accommodated Shaft Diameter (ABVM):
2.594 inches nominal
Case Style (BHHL):
Flanged
Housing Bore Diameter (CPCW):
3.064 inches nominal
Material (MATT):
Rubber synthetic sealing element
Material (MATT):
Steel case
Seal Width (ADUC):
0.484 inches nominal
Sealing Element Style (CTQC):
Angular
National Stock Number (NSN)
5330-00-392-5368

I hope this is the right part for you?

Kind Regards
Lionel
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 29, 2016, 11:01:40 PM
Ah, sort of like the wire version of a whipper-snipper head. Thanks for that, Frank.
The inside isn't really rusty, there's just a layer of slimy, degraded oil. Somehow a lot of water has mixed with the oil and the stuff is almost like a jelly. Being the middle of winter down here wouldn't help either.

Lionel, that picture doesn't look much like my seal, but I can now take a list of those alternate part numbers in and see if anyone can find them in their books.  ;D
The NSN number on the page doesn't match the one in the RPS, but it may still be the right part. I'll do some searching using the alternate numbers and see if I can find full pics for comparison.
Thanks for the links, it might be a very handy cross-reference for future needed parts too.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Lionelgee on July 29, 2016, 11:05:21 PM
G'day Greg,

Just found another site dated May 2016 which has a description and also a current link to a product on eBay in the US of A.

The post by kyoung on Thursday May 19, 2016 11:51 am suggests that ...

Download the MT97 parts manual in PDF format from here:

http://www.hansenwebdesign.com/truck/facts_manuals.html

then look in chapter 17 and 14 to get the part numbers



For the rear wheels, check this out. From looking at part numbers in MT97 manual it appears to be the exact same as for the R160 rear wheel seals. I see there are still 5 kits available:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/360483405541?_tr ... EBIDX%3AIT

M5H6 International Harvester Rear Axle Oil Seal Kits for 2.5 ton - IH part number 141163-H, Consists of:
2 52753HA Rear wheel Bearing Nut Seals
2 54533H Rear Hub Wheel Seal
1 77819H Pinion Shaft Oil Seal
1 59871H Pinion Shaft Oil Seal Felt


This site was accessed 29th July 2016 from http://oldihc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6833

Perhaps you could be in luck?

Kind Regards
Lionel
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 31, 2016, 05:39:31 PM
That's really helpful. I've made a list of all the different part/manufacturer numbers and I'll give them to the local guys tomorrow. If I can get them locally, I will save a lot on postage. Since eBay started using it's own postage system, the prices have gone through the roof.

Another listing I found has better pictures of the seals. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/370956280856?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/370956280856?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)

I got stuck in today and got the hub stripped down. The rear axle brakes are the "puller" type, where the handbrake rod and the hydraulic system pull a rod out of the hub, causing the expander pistons out, via roller pins on a tapered ramp. I managed to get all of the parts off except the alloy housing attached to the brake slave cylinder. I have to look that section up in the manual and work out what holds it all together, as I need to clean it up before I reassemble it all.

As you can see in the first pic below, there is a big pile of rust flakes in the bottom of the axle. I need a decent degreaser before I can try cleaning it all out as the stuff I have now, a water-based degreaser from Supercheap, just doesn't do the job. I tried using it on the parts I pulled off today and I might as well have been using plain water. When I gave up and tipped it out, there were lumps of undissolved grease in the bottom of the tin. The odd thing is, the stuff you get from there in the red spray cans works really well. I remember using some stuff years ago that you actually diluted with turps, or maybe kero. It worked really well but was hard on paintwork. There's a big patch on our John Deere tractor that now looks Ford tractor blue.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-QghpjGP/0/9395bf13/M/i-QghpjGP-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-nTBxXwf/0/653a67d6/M/i-nTBxXwf-M.jpg)

The grease that I scraped out was orange like mashed pumpkin and it stunk. I have to finish cleaning out the bearings, but I may have to replace them both. There are signs that there has been water between the bearing and the shaft. They feel fairly smooth when I spin them, but it's hard to tell as they keep throwing out chunks of grease. I need to unbox my parts washer and give them all a good hose out. I'm running out of room to store all my tools and stuff. I'm spending almost as much time digging out and putting away the tools I need for even minor jobs as I am doing the actual work.

When I pulled the stub axle (?) off, I found that oil had been leaking out through the gasket seal. This was what had run down the back of the backplate that I had seen from behind. With the hub off, I could also see where the oil/water/grease mix had been leaking out past the rear seal and running down the front of the the backplate and into the brake drum. I gave the backplate a quick clean-up with the wire wheel and found that most of the paint had flaked off, so I will give it a better clean and degrease during the week after work if it isn't raining, and then repaint it.

There was no grease left in the expanders and the pistons had a few spots of rust on them, so that explains why they wouldn't return properly. I will give them a light clean with some fine wet & dry before putting them back together. I have to go easy as they are only chromed and show signs of it almost being worn through in a few places. We used to have a good lathe and computer-controlled milling machine in the shed at work, but the new owner didn't know how to use them so he sold them both. I could really use them now. Wouldn't take much to machine up a few sets of stainless pistons for the expanders. Oh well.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 14, 2016, 05:36:23 PM
Hi all.
I had almost a whole weekend to myself this time, so I got a bit done, even with the crap weather.
I started off by cleaning out the diff tube. I borrowed some pink degreaser from one of my contractor's service trucks during the week and mixed it up with kero, as per the directions. I lowered the vehicle stand on the driver's side, so it would run back out and squirted the mixture up the pipe. It seemed to be working, but needed a scrub so I took the handle off my broom, as it has a cap on the end with a hole through it to hang it up. Next I got 3 new Curly Girl pot scrubbers and tangled them together and stuck them on the end of the broom handle, tieing them in place with string through the hole. With this I was able to give the tube a really good scrub. I started at the outer end to see how it went, as I was a bit worried about strands getting free and getting into the diff, but it seemed to work well so I did the whole length. Looking up the pipe, there is a sort of restriction before it got to the diff, so I could feel when I was getting close. Every now and then I would give it a blast up the pipe with the pressure washer and another good dose of degreaser and another scrub. Finally, the stuff running out looked clean. I had the bung out of the diff housing and caught the oil/sludge/water that ran out in my big oil drain pan. Even when the tube was clean, there was still nasty stuff in the diff housing.

Next step was to pull all the hub and guts off the passenger side rear wheel so I could clean it out too. The brake drum came off with just a few taps this time, as I had coated the surface around the studs and where the drum fits to the hub with nickel-seize when I had it off last time. The bolts that hold the expander units/slave cylinders to the back plate were only finger tight, but at least they had the locking tabs on the washer/plate bent over, so they couldn't have unscrewed. With all the brake bits off, I was able to remove the back plate and the stub axle. Eww.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-qWHFC38/0/acd2e101/M/i-qWHFC38-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-7MvxFkS/0/76aa4344/M/i-7MvxFkS-M.jpg)

Luckily, this gunk hadn't pushed past the seal and mixed with the wheel bearing grease, which was still bright blue, but very runny, almost like a thick oil in places.
When pulling the brake shoes off the expander unit, I noticed that the expander pins weren't going all the way back in, even if I tapped on them. When I got the slave cylinder/expander unit out of the back of the housing, I saw this odd rubber thing between the spring and the aluminium spacer thing. No idea what it is, but the other side doesn't have one.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-J4B6hF9/0/2edab01b/M/i-J4B6hF9-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-2LSFpkF/0/4511e929/M/i-2LSFpkF-M.jpg)

It's a bit hard to make out in that photo. I left my good camera at work. When I pull that slave unit apart I'll see what it is.

Next job was to clean this side axle tube too. I jacked up the other side and repeated the previous process and cleaned it out. After that, I replaced the Curly Girls with some clean rags and mopped both sides out, until the rags came out dry. I'm not sure what to do about the actual diff housing. I could pull out the filler bung and squirt degreaser in and then try to get the pressure washer close enough to get most of the jet in there. I can't think of a better way to clean it out short of dropping the rear drive shaft and removing the diff guts, and I REALLY don't want to do that out in a sloping paddock. I think for now I will just degrease and blast it through the bung hole and maybe later once it's registered and I have my Heavy Rigid license I can look at doing more at work on the concrete, with people around to help.

Once dry, I made a new gasket and gave it a coat of RTV Silicone Sealant and refitted the back plate, stub axle and the tin dust/dirt deflector using new high tensile bolts and lock nuts. I only did them up enough to pull the stub axle in lightly, then left it a few hours for the sealant to cure. Last thing today I will do them all up to 30 ft-lbs and that should be that.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-hDNgJHK/0/fdf77cef/M/i-hDNgJHK-M.jpg)

I had already cleaned out the brake adjuster housing so today I put it all back together and packed it with high-temp moly grease. I refitted it to the back plate and wrapped it all in plastic until I get the rest rebuilt.

During the week I was trying to work out how the "puller" type brake slave system came apart. The book says to undo the locking pin, turn the shaft anti clockwise and the piston and seals will slide out. Well, they left a LOT of steps out. First you remove the brake line from the slave cylinder. This is done by loosening the inverted flare nut. I even have proper imperial flare nut spanners, and the first thing they did was to round off all the edges. Out with the vice grips. They worked. Unfortunately, the flared end has corroded itself to the nut, so when the nut turns, so does the pipe, twisting and collapsing it. Out with the vice grips and the end is now crimped off. Oh well, I figured I would have to replace a lot of the old brake lines, as I could see where brake fluid had leaked at many of the junctions and stripped the paint, exposing it to the weather and corroding things. With the pipe safely crimped closed, I could take the slave cylinder up to the house and pull it apart on the work bench.
With the handbrake rod removed, I slipped the rubber boot off and found an external circlip. With that removed, I cut the safety wire that stops the locking pin from undoing and backed the pin out. I tried rotating the shaft anti clockwise, but it wouldn't come out. After levering the aluminium spacer plate away from the steel slave cylinder, I found another circlip stopping the guts from sliding out. With that removed, another whole lot of nothing happened.
I decided to clean it up a bit so I could see better, so I taped up all the openings and gave it a good blast in my sandblasting cabinet. With it all nice and clean, I could see that it definitely came out through the bottom. I stuck it in the press and it popped out pretty easily.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-HMcHdrT/0/cc0c434c/M/i-HMcHdrT-M.jpg)

With that out, I found that the part number for the 2 rubber seals is PBR P621. These look ok, but if it's apart, I may as well put new ones in, if I can get them.
I tapped the pin out that locks the internals together and was able to separate them all. Looking into the slave housing, I found a ring of hardened sludge that had stopped the internals sliding out easily. I removed the bleeder and block-off bolt opposite where I twisted off the brake pipe, and found that these recesses were also full of sludge and gunk. I cleaned them out and gave the main cylinder bore a light clean with 1200 grit wet & dry. With everything clean now, and tools all over the work bench and around the truck, it decided to rain, so that was the end of the fun for the weekend.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-35pZQt3/0/770d4f39/M/i-35pZQt3-M.jpg)

I'll try and find 4 of those brake seals during the week. There's a pair for sale on eBay, but if I can get them locally it will save a lot of time.
I already picked up 4m of pre-coated 1/4" brake line and 11 new flare nuts, as that was all they had in stock. I'll try loosening the brake line on the other side during the week, so I can strip the slave cylinder down and see why it is not returning properly. The days are getting longer, so I can do a bit after work most days, when it isn't raining.

It was good to see parts actually going back on for a change.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on August 14, 2016, 05:59:24 PM
Nice work Greg!  :D

May I make the following suggestions?

1. Replace all of the brake pipes; there is bound to be corrosion either inside them, or on the outside. Because the wall-thickness is so small, even the smallest rust-pit is threatening the integrity of the hydraulic system. The worst that can happen if it fails, is an out of control truck with fatalities! Anyway making new pipes and fitting them is very therapeutic, I find.  :D

2. Fill the diff-housing with kerosene, put the bung back in and rotate the axles by hand to slosh it around a bit; that way the bearings hopefully won't get rust flakes blown into them, by a pressure cleaner, or risk rusting from water ingress. You might have to drain and repeat several times.

3. You will never get all of the flakes out unless you strip it completely, so what about fitting a magnet to the drain plug? I have done this to all of my old cars and it is remarkable how much fine filings end up on the magnet. If the magnet is clean it also tells me that all is well and good inside.

I love your posts and watching your progress,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 14, 2016, 10:17:21 PM
Thanks for that.
I had figured I may have to replace the brake lines. I followed them all back and found that every single junction and fitting had signs of old leaks. There were rust streaks and stripped paint. I also found that both master cylinder stroke indicators came all the way out, even when the brakes were adjusted out and sticking.
Interestingly, the passenger side rear was the one sticking the most and now I have found the puller plunger isn't returning fully.
I have all the gear for doing double flares and bending 1/4" pipe, so it's just a matter of working my way through and replacing them as I go. I wanted to pull both master cylinders down for a clean and overhaul anyway.

As for the diff, I could jack it up to get the housing level and fill it with kero to the edge of the axle openings, then jack up one of the intermediate wheels and spin it. That should turn the rear diff over and stir the kero around. If I drop it into a clean container, I can skim the worst sludge off and use it again. Once no more comes out I will leave the bung out so it can drain fully. I can use the kero for mixing with the degreaser to clean the gearbox and PTO pump. It's caked on thick.

As for the diff bung, I think I have a small magnet off a broken telescopic pick-up tool somewhere. I cane drill a recess in the bung and stick the magnet in with some Locktite red. I haven't drained the other diffs yet, but it wouldn't hurt to have magnetised bungs in them too.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on August 15, 2016, 08:19:48 AM
I bought a packet of rare-earth magnets from possibly this business in Perth years ago https://magnet.com.au/?gclid=CjwKEAjwrcC9BRC2v5rjyvSbhWASJACKkjDzI-sudi6EY1aujLBOwgE6pXYUyHlT6f14AtcHZY30ahoCUh_w_wcB

From memory I bought 20 and the price came down significantly; the chap on the phone recommended rare-earth. I chose the ones with a hole through the middle, which allowed me to drill and tap a hole in the bung and hold the magnet with a small screw. Getting the screw past the magnet and into the hole was the fun bit,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 15, 2016, 08:49:06 AM
Thanks for that.
I just bought 10 6mmx3mm neodymium nickel coated disc magnets.  ;D

I'll buy a few new 1/2" pipe bungs and drill a 6.5mm hole in the ends, ready to glue the magnets in when they get here.

The postage cost more than the magnets.  :o

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Bluebell One-eight on August 15, 2016, 10:04:51 PM
Hi Greg, looks like you're making good progress. While on the rare earth magnets
I made up a magnetic broom by welding a length of pipe to a piece of 3mm plate, so that the plate was parallel to the ground when the handle was at a comfortable angle.  The magnets were simply put on the plate and if you wanted to find a small part the magnets would pick it up when they passed over it. Might be handy for you working outdoors. With the nuts that adjust the wheel bearings, only the outer has a seal, someone has probably fitted one with the seal because they didn't have a plain nut. It doesn't make any difference the seal just doesn't do anything when used on the inner position.   Keep at it. John
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on August 19, 2016, 11:36:17 PM
I havent looked at the forum lately,so a few points. The axle nut seals[not the nuts] are the same as used on one of the 70s axles.Either the No3 Eaton,or possibly the C1600.Cant remember.The rubber thingy crushed into the brake expander is actually a soft gasket seal to keep water out of the brake expander and cylinder.The grease question is as follows....Red grease for the hydraulic parts,,white grease is for the mechanicals of the expander....You dont want ordinary petroleum base grease in the expander migrating into the hydraulics,as it will swell the rubbers and jam everything up.And carefully check out the drop boxes on the front of the diffs.They are very feak and weeble,and prone to disaster.Worst part of the truck,in my opinion.Glad to see you got a good vehicle.The Mk3 will do for spares.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 20, 2016, 06:22:14 PM
Thanks for that. Iveco may have a listing for one of those.

I managed to get some more done today, between the rain showers.
During the week I primed and painted the slave cylinder and handbrake linkage pivots.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-35pZQt3/0/770d4f39/M/i-35pZQt3-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-TSHgFg2/0/d77a35a5/M/i-TSHgFg2-M.jpg)

They came up looking really good. Now I just need to keep the brake fluid off them.
I made a replacement seal out of a piece of rubber from a blown skidder tube. That stuff is tough, but when it gets staked, it splits open like a balloon.

Before refitting it all, I poured about 3 litres of clean kero into the diff and spun a tire on the intermediate axle to mix things around. After doing that for a while, I realised I could start the truck and run it in first for the same effect, but a lot less effort. Sounds good, but the damn thing wouldn't start. It's pretty cold, but even with the choke on it didn't fire once. After checking for any wires I could have knocked off, I found the glass fuel bowl was empty. Oops. I knew it was low but I didn't want to top it up as I want to pull the tanks off to get them steam cleaned before I repaint the outsides. Oh well, back to spinning the tire by hand.
After a bit, I drained the kero into the clean oil pan and it was now almost orange. There were chunks of what seem to be curdled oil in it. I expect that's from the water contamination. I strained the kero through some paper towel and it came up a lot cleaner, so I put it back in. I did this 4 more times, and by then the kero wasn't getting any dirtier and I wasn't getting any more chunks or rust particles. I have left the pan under it, with the bung out so it can fully drain. Hopefully it is now clean enough.

After that, I bolted the slave cylinder and expander back on and refitted the brake shoes and springs.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-8nqRJ6D/0/ab36dcff/M/i-8nqRJ6D-M.jpg)

The first pic below is one I took ages ago, of the passenger's side rear. That's the one that was dragging the most, and the one where the slave cylinder piston wasn't returning properly.
See anything wrong in that pic?
I only spotted it because I went to replace the brake shoes on the driver's side and couldn't remember which way round they went. I eventually found the pic below in the MK3 Workshop manual, showing the direction of rotation and the position of the adjuster bolts.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-LrXGQZz/0/a57369ca/M/i-LrXGQZz-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-7JnWmFF/0/2350ad2e/M/i-7JnWmFF-M.jpg)

As you can see, the bottom brake shoe is around the wrong way. It should have the bare "tongue" on the other end. I'm not sure what effect this would have, but I'll be putting it back on the way it's shown in the manual.

I still have to repaint the back of the hub, so I couldn't refit that yet. I started working on the slave cylinder for the passenger's side next.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-83qGvzz/0/2f0183c5/M/i-83qGvzz-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-j5gTw8K/0/bc7da7ac/M/i-j5gTw8K-M.jpg)

The boot is still in good condition, but the whole slave cylinder will need a good clean and repaint. As you can see in the second pic, the piston is stuck and not returning. When pulling it apart for cleaning, I found a build-up of black greasy stuff under the block-off bolt. The bleeder it also one of the original types, with a flat base and a small ball bearing that closes the passage. The bleeder has a very fine hole to let the fluid pass when it's loosened, but this is rusted closed. The one on the driver's side had been replaced with a more modern type, with a tapered base and a large bleed hole, instead of the ball bearing, so I will try to find another like it.

I cleaned up the rusty gunk on the outside of the piston and dribbled some CRC down the side, then tapped it back in to give me room to pull the alloy adapter plate away from the slave cylinder enough to remove the internal circlip that holds the guts in. It turns out that they had a go at this before, and managed to break the end off the circlip. I got what was left out, but it still wouldn't come apart. Once again, I had to put it in the press. It only took a few pumps and it started to slide out.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-NZKjX74/0/15f22aae/M/i-NZKjX74-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-24PTxGt/0/b330aaff/M/i-24PTxGt-M.jpg)

As you can see, its a real mess. The bore seems ok, with no corrosion, just a ring of stuff from the brake fluid around the base. This cleans off with acetone. I'll clean it all up during the week and repaint it all, ready to go back together next weekend, if I get the time.
The rubber seal is stuffed. I think they put it in wrong last time it was apart. It should go into the recess, and have the spring sit on top. I'll make a new one up and see how it goes.

While I was under there, I got tired of belting my head, so I took the metal mudguard off. I should have done this right at the start, before I even took the wheel off. It gives you a lot more room. It's pretty rusted and has a few dents, so I'll give it a clean up and repaint, then refit it before I put the tire back on.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on August 24, 2016, 11:05:08 PM
I assume that you all know that these are a Pommy brake and were fitted to Commers,Austins,Leylands,Albions etc.The idea is that the brake is twin leading shoe in either direction,and they do work very well when properly adjusted and maintained.Be very careful when assembling that the pushrods dont fall out of the rocker sockets.If you have brakes that sort of half work,and drag,then its a good bet this has happened.Later versions of this system had wire clips in the shoe webs to retain the rods,but Inters dont.The rocker adjusters are taken up just enough to eliminate free play in the system,all adjustment of the shoes is by the square peg on the expander.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 25, 2016, 08:26:37 AM
Thanks for that. Yes, the rear brakes, the "puller" type, were also fitted to the Coventry Climber. There used to be a guy on the UK eBay site selling NOS rebuild kits for them. Same part number as in the MK4 & F1 RPS. Typically, he hasn't got any left now. The actual seals are PBR P621 and I got 4 for $5 each, so I don't need the kit now as the outer rubber boots are in "as new" condition.

Those damn push rods! I had a hell of a time trying to get the shoes back on without them falling out. Once I got them on, I then had to remove them again as I realised I had one of the back springs on backwards, which meant it sat out from the shoe, rather than tucking inside. If I left it, it would rub against the backplate bolt heads, so it had to be fixed.
Anyway, the rear driver's side is on now and I should get the bearings and hub packed and refitted Sunday. I've started cleaning and painting the passenger's side bits after work each night and they may be ready to go back on too. Then I can start on the intermediate axle. Same brake slaves on it as on the front, so hopefully the rebuild kits for it are easier to come by.

I will update you all after the weekend.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on August 25, 2016, 08:57:40 PM
Forty odd years ago,in Nth Qld,two mechanics got six months jail each for letting the pushrods fall out in the rear brakes of a Albion bus.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 27, 2016, 07:03:26 PM
Hi all.
I got home and it was raining, so no outside work today.
You may remember I posted the pic below at the start of the thread. It shows the tac plate holder with the blue spray paint across it, matching the squirt on the passenger side windscreen.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-xSzrRsT/0/54e81edf/M/i-xSzrRsT-M.jpg)

I have removed the tac plate holders and had them out the back on the bench. I had painted some brake parts an was washing the brush out in thinners when I noticed that some of the blue paint on the tac plate holder was running where I spilt some. I dipped a rag in clean thinners and found that the blue paint wiped off without touching the other layers underneath.
I figured I better take a few pics before totally wrecking them both.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-vNW6xK9/0/0200a113/L/i-vNW6xK9-L.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-29qdCpD/0/3768d1b9/L/i-29qdCpD-L.jpg)

Driver's side Tac Plate Holder (before)                                                                                                                 Passenger's side Tac Plate Holder (before)

The driver's side seems to be "98". The passenger's side could be anything.
I started cleaning the driver's side holder with thinners and a rag. With a good rub, the top layer came off and showed 1" high yellow numbers and letters across the top and 3" high numbers below.
The passenger side one was a lot harder. The top layer of camo green was very thick and rough. The red letters underneath wiped away with it. Under that were 4" high white letters on a dark bronze green background.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Fsz6xdD/0/4f510c8a/L/i-Fsz6xdD-L.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-w48w36g/0/3005c5d6/L/i-w48w36g-L.jpg)

Driver's side Tac Plate Holder (after)                                                                                                                 Passenger's side Tac Plate Holder (after)

The driver's side looks like it has "7C020/01" at the top and "98" in larger numbers below. There is a black dot between the 9 & 8 and it is actually slightly indented into the metal, as though someone has made a recess with a hammer and bolt so the paint would fill it.
The passenger side one is "?2". I can't tell what the first number/letter is. The dark green paint may even be earlier writing, but it comes off a lot easier that the top layer of paint, so it's hard to tell.
The 2 is obvious. The thing beside it may be a diagonal slash, I suppose. The only number I can think of in that font with a leg angling down like the one here is maybe a 7. so 7/2?

Hopefully, someone out there might know what these plates mean and sees this post. I can't find any info on any of the F1's with the Abbey cranes, other than the list of ARN's. Were they ordered and delivered with the cranes or were they an in-service mod? Did they go overseas at all? Where were they stationed and most importantly, does anyone have operating instructions for the Abbey crane? :)

Greg.

Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: GGG on August 28, 2016, 07:18:58 PM
Greg, as far as I know cranes only started to be fitted in the seventies so they were not original equipment. I will leave it up to the rivet counters as to whether they were Abbeys or not or if the Abbeys came later. They would not have seen service in Vietnam but may have gone elsewhere.
Geoff.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Diana Alan on August 28, 2016, 08:34:13 PM
Hi Geoff

We've had this discussion previously
There are two census for the F1 with cranes.
So both Hiab and Abbey were fitted, the Hiab with higher crane capacity.
Have no idea if they were retrofits, but I have the RPS for the F1 with Abbey out at the Chook Shed.

I seem to remember a thread of a Mk3 with crane which may have been in SVN.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 28, 2016, 09:07:22 PM
Hi.

Thanks for that info.

I think mine started out as a plain F1 and got the Abbey fitted later. The plate on the dash just shows it as "Truck, Cargo, 5Ton, GS. F1"

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-wcjSFxD/0/58fbdddb/M/i-wcjSFxD-M.jpg)

There is no mention of the Abbey Crane, except for the faded instruction plate screwed to to roof behind the turret hatch, and even that looks a bit dodgy.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-F8rMv94/0/1fee5a60/M/i-F8rMv94-M.jpg)

The plate appears to have been cut off and then the end screwed on separately.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: GGG on August 28, 2016, 10:00:51 PM
Diana, It would be interesting to know more about that Mk.3 with the crane. I never saw anything like that but the Australian Army in 1970 was a big place. It would have been very handy though when you look at how high off the ground the tray is. I used to jump off the back of the truck and hit the ground running. Now I would fall off and just hit the ground :'(
Geoff.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Diana Alan on August 29, 2016, 10:01:58 AM
Hi Geoff

I suggest you read the thread started by Tommy in this board http://remlr.com/forum/index.php?topic=1454.0 (http://remlr.com/forum/index.php?topic=1454.0), going by Mike C's posts it seems that it may have been an in service modification.

Remember the Mk3 4x4 were replaced by F1 as the Vietnam conflict progressed, the Mk4 4x4 were not routinely transported to SVN, although I seem to remember an image of a 4x4 in country with the later cab (Mk4/F1/F2/F5) although this may have been an local repair with a F1 front.

Diana
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on August 29, 2016, 03:20:09 PM
Hi Ravvin - I have sent you an email with an attachment you might find very handy - use as you will!

Cheers   Frank

Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 29, 2016, 05:50:29 PM
Thanks for that, Frank. That's a nice clear copy.

The front of the MK4 RPS had all of the supplier codes listed with the actual supplier names, so it was easy to work out who's part number I was looking for.
All of the F1 RPS's that I have seen only list the NSN number. I just have to find out how to convert the NSN numbers to a supplier's name and part number now.

Your RPS has all the serial numbers listed at the front with the corresponding NSN.
All of the parts in it are listed the same as the one's in the MK4 RPS, with the supplier's number and then the serial number. The problem is that many of those supplier numbers aren't in the list from the MK4 RPS. Not many hydraulic parts in the MK4 I guess.
I'll work it out.  :) I have a LOT of o'rings to replace to stop all the leaks before I can get it registered.

After looking through the REMLR ARN list, I'm getting even more confused.
Chassis number 3588, which is definitely what is stamped on my chassis rail and on the nomenclature plate, is 180-971. The ARN page says it is a "Truck, Cargo, 5Ton, GS. F1", which matches what is on the nomenclature plate. The ARN page says it was 1972, but the plate in the truck says June 1969, census number 6221-B. All the trucks listed as being from 1969 are in the 176 ARN range. I haven't actually checked to see if the engine number matches yet. I have to degrease it all first.

Does anyone know if other F1's with the Abbey or Hiab cranes had it listed on their nomenclature plates?

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on August 29, 2016, 08:52:12 PM
Hi Greg - No worries mate - Happy to help out.
My FI has had a chassis change but does have the words - Truck, Cargo, 5 Ton, GS, With Winch, Crane, Truck Mounted.  It is a bit confusing as when I have tracked the two chassis numbers they come up to one original ARN and the other to another ARN.  I could potentially have either! I am going with the REMLR data. 

I have found an old Hella flood light casing like the ones on your and my F1. I am experimenting with a fully LED insert into the existing outer Hella Casing. If this works I will send you photos and one for your unit. The inner replacement will look from the outside just like the original light, use far less power being 9w LED and be far superior. Hopefully there will be less heat build up in this system than the original and you never need to replace a globe again!

Frank
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dkg001 on August 31, 2016, 03:37:58 PM
Courtesy of 104 Sigs website. Photo of F1 with crane  96-6.   RAEME 106 Field Workshop at Nui Dat.  Photo supplied by Nev Haskett [1971]
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: GGG on August 31, 2016, 07:16:23 PM
Well, there you go. Like I said, never say never. It would be interesting to hear more about this one. A unit level mod perhaps?
Geoff O.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 31, 2016, 08:12:53 PM
That's cool. I zoomed in and the truck ARN is 171-7?? Checking the ARN list, it has to be one of 4, unless it's like mine and not listed as an F1 with Abbey crane. 171-717, 171-720, 171-721 or 171-723. All of the trucks around this ARN range are listed as 1967 models but none of these 4 are on the SVN list. Interestingly, the other ARN's around these ones are all listed as standard F1's that went to SVN.
Mine is 180-971 and isn't on the ARN list as having an Abbey crane. I had hoped that the numbers on the tac plate holders might point to where it served.

Oh and the Landrover on the left looks like a new Vietnam find. The ARN is 113-849 and the ARN list has it as an "Automotive Repair Shop, Truck mounted, 3/4 ton, GS, Garage" Adelaide auction. 19/07/1993. No mention of it in the Series 2A list as having been overseas and it's not on the SVN list.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: THE BOOGER on August 31, 2016, 10:30:28 PM
Did the carriers get fitted with the T50 in the field?
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 11, 2016, 02:00:34 PM
Just a minor update.
I spent most of yesterday using paint stripper and a scraper to remove the dozen or so layers of paint off one of the rear hubs, between the wheel studs and the axle studs. The paint stripper could only get through a few layers at a time, so it took 4 coats. The last layer came off easily and left the original red oxide layer, except where the rust was lifting it. With it all cleaned back, I gave it a good going over with a wire wheel in the drill and got it primed.
Next job was cleaning up the brake adjuster and the expander unit. Here's a tip. Don't try degreasing these while having a shower. You might save some water, but the old moly grease is really hard to get off the porcelain and your skin. The degreaser can be a bit hard on parts of the anatomy too.

With everything ready, today I got to try out my new bearing packer. This is pretty simple, just being 2 metal cones that connect with a threaded hollow tube with a hole near the bottom and a grease nipple on top. You put the bearing on the bottom cone, which then seals around the inside of the bearing, tighten the top one down until it seals on the top outside of the race, and pump it full of grease until it comes out the bottom of the race, between the rollers. Then I found it best to loosen the cones a bit, turn the outer race/rollers a few turns, re-tighten and pump a bit more grease in. As I had already degreased and cleaned the bearings, I was able to scrape all the excess grease off and put it back in the tub. In the end, it's just as messy as packing it by hand, but you know it is fully packed with no air pockets.
Before I could pack the bearings though, I had to sort out the grease gun. I had been using cartridges in it as it was just for small jobs up to now, like greasing my Discovery when I serviced it. A cartridge usually lasted me a year, unless the oils leaked out and it dried up sooner. This truck just eats grease. I bought a 5kg tub and so far used half of it just on the 2 back wheels. After pulling the old cartridge out, I cleaned it all and found I had to move a large o'ring so it sealed the plunger to the inner walls. Next fun job was getting the grease in there. I used a narrow scraper and stuffed it in, pushing it down to get the air bubbles out. After it was about 1/4 full, I bumped it and the plunger shot the entire load of grease out. Luckily, it all landed on my cleanish grease rag, so I was able to reuse it.

With the bearings packed, I refitted the brake unit and the adjuster, put the back bearing in the hub and managed to get the new seal in first go. The hub went on fairly easily this time and I was able to get the outer bearing in and the first lock nut tensioned up without getting too much blue grease on me. Lock washer and outer nut with seal went on next and then it started raining. I knew things were going too well for it to last.

I'm not sure what to do next. I could rebuild the hubs on the intermediate axle, but the seals aren't leaking on them. I haven't checked the diff oil in that axle, but it would make sense to change the oil now, as I am putting new oil in the back one. If I rebuild the hubs now, at best I will find it all in good condition and all I need is to put new seals in the back. I will know that everything in there is in good condition. If I don't do it now, something is sure to go wrong later, miles from home, in the dark/rain/bush and will be 10x harder to fix.

I still have to bend up new brake lines for the rear axle. I think I will also pull both master cylinders out and give them an overhaul. Like the intermediate axle, I will then know that they are all working properly. I'll make new brake lines as I go.

The days are getting longer and there is more light when I get home from work now, so I should be posting more frequent updates as I get lots of little things done.
I still have to sand blast all of the dust shields off the backs of the hubs so I can repaint them all. The problem is that I have to do it after dark as I can't see inside the sand blasting cabinet if there is any overhead light. I have a roll of black weed matting, so maybe I should make up a large box frame and cover it, so it blocks the light from above, behind and from the sides. My poor little compressor struggles to keep up. I've worn out 2 ceramic nozzles so far, but at least they are cheap and easy to find.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 16, 2016, 05:25:54 PM
Hi all.
I got home a bit early today so looked for something simple to do before it gets dark or rains again.
I want to remove the brake master cylinders and give them a clean and overhaul before fitting new pipes. There are only 3 bolts and 2 pipes to undo to remove it, so that's pretty simple.
No, it's really not. They put a steel frame as a step over the front fuel tank so you can service the Abbey crane, This means you can only get a 6th of a turn on the spanner when you undo the air line into the actuator. Eventually, I got it off. Then the flare nut on the steel brake line out of the master cylinder seized on the pipe and wanted to twist the end off. I didn't want to do that, as that section of pipe has a specific set of bends in it so it lines up with the master cylinder but doesn't rub where it goes through the chassis rail. I needed to undo the banjo bolt at the end to release the brass block that the flare nut screws into. The problem is if I undo that, the brake fluid will run all over the fuel tank and there is no room to get a tin in there to catch it.
Plan B. Remove the rear fuel tank. This was fairly easy. The fuel pipe unscrewed fairly easily, the 2 wires for the fuel gauge came off and the nuts on the Tee bolts that tension the retaining straps came off after a good squirt of CRC and a bit of a touch-up with the wire brush. When I lifted the tank out, I noticed that it rattled. Something loose in there.
With the tank off, the banjo bolt came out and absolutely no brake fluid ran out. The reservoir was empty. That might explain why the stroke indicator came all the way out. Oh well, I was going to rebuild it anyway.
I had planned on removing both fuel tanks to clean and repaint them at some point, as they were looking a bit rough and showing a bit of rust. The stone guards underneath need a bit of panel beating and some paint also. When I remove the other tank and the mud guards and retaining struts I will have clear access to get at the outside of the chassis rail and the channel section that fits between it and the tray. The chassis rail is galvanised and the paint is flaking off. The channel looks like just mild steel and it is rusting. I will wire-wheel both then prime and repaint them.
With the tank out and the air and brake lines off, I just had to undo the 3 bolts that hold the mounting bracket to the chassis rail. To do this, I had to get under the truck, just in front of the transfer case, which is black, oily and covered in caked on road dust and mud. The 3 bolts have nuts and washers on the inside of the chassis rail. To get to the nuts you need to have tiny hands and arms with 2 or more elbows or wrist joints. The 3 nuts are right between the first fixed cross-member and the removable cross-member that the transfer case hangs from. I can get to one, with a long extension bar and the bendy fitting, but I can't turn that and hold a spanner on the other side at the same time. I need an offsider. I also don't think I can get at the other 2 nuts and be able to move the ratchet handle. I'll round up all my extension bars and see if I have enough to reach across the top of the transfer case. Either way, I don't see how I can get the nuts and washers back on once it is all cleaned up. Maybe a blob of grease or a dot of super glue to hold the washer to the nut long enough to get it started might work.
I have a suspicion I am going to have to drop the transfer case out. It's totally filthy and I need to get it spotless before attempting to get a roadworthy. It would be worth it just to fit all new modern seals. No more leaks. Also with it out I can get at the air actuator on the winch and see if it is actually engaging.
I have a week off work coming up in October, so I'll have a think about it and see what other options arise.
I took the fuel gauge out of the tanks so I could see inside and found some treasure. In the bottom was the missing dipstick shaft and a spare float for the gauge. The inside is spotless, with no sign of rust or residue. You can clearly see the galvanising.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-dnpnT9L/0/b7700257/M/i-dnpnT9L-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-j5W2BhR/0/844c1f36/M/i-j5W2BhR-M.jpg)

There is no smell of fuel in the tank. It must have been empty for a long time. The cork seal in the cap has shrunk and doesn't actually seal anything. I'll make a new one up after I clean up the outside of the tank and repaint it. The padding under the retaining straps looks like felt. It has rust flakes from the strap poking through it so I will clean the straps up, repaint them and make some new padding. I have a big sheet of thin conveyor belting that might work.

Oh well. Off to help my mum out tomorrow, so more updates on Sunday night.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on September 18, 2016, 06:53:51 PM
Tanks are tinned,not gal.Zinc reacts with fuel to make a white flaky deposit which blocks carbys.Youre doing a great job there.Id love to go to one of the shows down south.Where guys bring in tanks on petrol Kaisers and floats.Up here in Qld the average collector is so tight they wont even run motors once a year.A thought with your crane...make sure the slew controll valve is working and hasnt been gutted.Otherwise the crane jib will run away downhill if used anywhere but on the level.Its in the jumble of pipes .The Hiab cranes had the lot included in the controll bank.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Diana Alan on September 20, 2016, 10:06:40 AM
The felt under the tank bands retains water and aids rust development. While not original a number of people up here in Sydney (including myself) have replaced the felt with rubber available from Clark Rubber.  From memory the rubber I used was 10mm thick.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 23, 2016, 06:38:48 PM
Thank for all that. Yes, they are definitely tinned, not galvanised.
I just spent some time cleaning them up with the wire wheel and where the paint was flaking or wholly intact, it just flew off with the lightest touch. There the tinning on the outside had worn away, the light surface rust that had formed was a lot tougher to remove.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-QTgCsXQ/0/a9ac9639/M/i-QTgCsXQ-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-jRRHVbR/0/bf77957b/L/i-jRRHVbR-L.jpg)

As you can see in the pics, I haven't finished yet. The filler neck is soft soldered to the main tank, with a lot of excess solder that was shaped and smoothed.
In the second pic, you can see the big problem. Under the tank bands were actual rust pits. So far, 2 of them are right through, so when I cleaned them out, I found I have holes to patch.
The bottom of the tank doesn't seem to have these pits and holes, but had a light coat of surface rust which I have cleaned off. The holes were all under the section of tank strap that was really stuck to the tank. It actually separated the layers of felt, rather than peeling off the metal. I'd guess the water soaking into the felt over the years was what did it. I'll definitely be replacing them with the rubber strips as suggested.

It looks like someone has cleaned the tank out not long back as the drain plug is clean and it has a nice new copper washer on it.
I have a bit of panel-beating to do as the whole bottom of the tank is dented in. There is also a deep sharp dent on the front where something has jabbed into it. The bottom will be easy enough. I will use a broom handle through the fuel float hole and pop it back out. The front dent will be harder. I will have to find something suitably shaped to use as a dolly from the inside and beat it out properly. Now that I have the LPG/Oxy gear, I can heat it and cool it later to shrink the stretched metal back.

How do you all suggest I patch the holes? I'm hopeless at welding, but one of the guys at work is good with thin metal. I could braze them up, or silver or soft solder them. Soft solder might be a bit soft though, and it should bond into the steel of the tank for best results, I guess.
I will borrow the inspection camera from work and check inside the tank. I know the section of bottom that I can see through the fuel gauge hole looked perfect, but there may be more rust where I can't see.

As the tinning has worn through where the light surface rust is, I will etch-prime the whole thing before repainting it. Hopefully the inside is ok. If not, I will have to re-coat it.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on September 23, 2016, 07:46:51 PM
Thank for all that. Yes, they are definitely tinned, not galvanised.
...Now that I have the LPG/Oxy gear, I can heat it and cool it later to shrink the stretched metal back.

How do you all suggest I patch the holes? I'm hopeless at welding, but one of the guys at work is good with thin metal. I could braze them up, or silver or soft solder them. Soft solder might be a bit soft though, and it should bond into the steel of the tank for best results, I guess. ...

Greg.

Apologies if I have sent this link before, but if the holes are small use glue http://www.remlr.com/ look under "Restoration information" on the left of the page.

Failing that, soft solder a patch onto the tank, or use body solder to fill the hole. Use a copper soldering iron; the sort which you heat up in a fire so that you can get enough heat into the metal.

Don't weld unless you have it cleaned properly, or there will be a risk of a fatal explosion. In any case the metal will be so thin it will probably make the hole worse,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 23, 2016, 09:38:29 PM
Thanks for that.
The holes are both about the same size, down in the bottom of the deepest rust pits. There was a scab of rust on top which came off when I touched it with the wire wheel. The holes are about the size of a toothpick, but I have to clean more rusted material out before it gets filled, so they could end up larger. There were still sparks coming off the wire wheel, so there is still corroded stuff in there.
There are a couple of other rust scabs that I need to check carefully before I finish. My wire wheel went bald.

The tank appears to have been flushed out. There is absolutely no smell of petrol in it at all. The guys at work recently rebuilt 3x Kombis. All had a lot of rust cut out and patches welded in. That stuff was pretty thin and their welds were really neat. I had a go on some scrap pieces and managed to blow a lot of holes in them, so I wouldn't attempt welding this with the Mig, but they would do it for me if I ask.

Looking at the line where the strap sat, there is a lot of shallow pitting, with a few deeper divots and the 2 deep pits where the holes are. I used to be pretty good at brazing, so maybe I could run some along the pitted section and clean it off flush. It will be under the new rubber strip, under the steel strap, so it won't be seen. It will be painted too.
Silver solder would flow easier, but I'm not sure how well it would bind to the steel/tin combo of the tank, although there isn't likely to be any tin left where the pitting is.

I just want it to be properly sealed, and to last. I had rust removed from a Holden panel van years ago, and within 5 years it was back, worse than ever. I want to do it right the first time.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dodgeguy1942 on September 23, 2016, 09:47:23 PM
I find that oxy is the best way to weld up tanks. Then use a tank sealer
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on September 24, 2016, 10:41:02 AM
G'day Greg,
If you are determined to weld it then you need to consider the following:

1. Welding successfully relies on both pieces of sheet-metal being the same thickness. In your photos the corroded areas have been reduced considerably in thickness, so therefore they need to be removed and new metal inserted. If you don't do this, the thin metal will melt into larger and larger holes and the holey problem will become worse not better. In addition to which, the metal needs to be clean on both sides of the weld; no rust, paint; dissimilar metal coatings, etc. Getting inside the tank is problematic.

2. If you, or someone else, cuts away the corroded metal and makes accurate patches that fit perfectly; then it can be welded successfully. However; because the panel being repaired is large and flat, it will distort badly and it would be impossible to get a dolly, or grinder behind the seams to stretch and shrink the metal back to shape. Don't forget that this method would require 4 welds, plus the ends of the patches. In my opinion and experience as a metal-shaper and car restorer of 30 + years, I think welding will distort the tank top so badly, that it will always look terrible.

So the alternatives are:

1. Solder to fill the pits and small holes. We know this works because the filler-neck is soldered and it was common practice to solder tank joins in those days, in conjunction with rivets and folded seams. Soldering requires bare metal, so I think a blast with a small and cheap sand blaster will work well, but you have to get the sand out of the tank later.

2. Use glue as suggested before, which is petrol-proof; doesn't cause distortion; will seal up pinholes; grabs any grit and rust in the tank and holds it forever; and is very cheap.

3. Use a combination of both of the above.

4. Have a new tank made, bearing in mind your earlier post about the dent in the end.

If you consider no.4 as a viable option, I have all the gear to make one and I don't mind helping  for the cost-of-materials if you need some help. The disadvantage of course, is the cost of freight across Australia.

I apologise if this post seems over-bearing, so please accept it as advice only and you can of course do whatever you like, with your tank,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Bluebell One-eight on September 24, 2016, 08:48:57 PM
All good advice, and a little extra. Don't assume all is safe because there is no odour. The industry advice is to steam or boil a tank for a minimum of two hours before welding. The problem is that some residual fumes can be trapped in the metal pores and heat will release them and any ignition source could be embarrassing. An old friend had an experience many years ago that illustrates this very well. He had an old J series Bedstead that had died probably a decade earlier. It was to be scrapped and the tank had been emptied when the truck was parked with the lid off. He decided to cut the chassis with the oxy to fit the thing in a bin. The fuel line came out of the tank, along a cross member and up the inside of the side rail on the opposite side of the tank. When cutting through the chassis the line was heated enough to start some sort of combustion in the pipe and it traveled down the line to the tank and BOOM.  He was lucky no injury, but it might have been different if he was near the tank. Caution is the way! There are specialists that do this sort of work and if you really want to weld it then that would be the way if the price wasn't too high. Keep us posted on the progress.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Lionelgee on September 25, 2016, 10:45:30 AM
Hello Ravvin,

For the holes in the tank you could find an older radiator repairs place and they could repair the tank for you. Not sure if a younger radiator operator would have the skills and experience to do the job. So an older tradie should be able to help you out.

Kind Regards
Lionel
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 25, 2016, 10:11:21 PM
Hi all, sorry for not getting back to you all earlier, I have been up at mum's, getting 240v set up in her house. Now she can flick a switch inside to turn the inverter on in the shed and has all the lights changed over to 240v. Just need to work out where she wants all the power points, run the cables and hook it all into the breaker box. Maybe next weekend. :)

Thanks for all the info, offers and suggestions. It's exactly why I find this forum so useful; I can usually find detailed info on what I need to do next, or someone who has done it before and already found the tips and traps, saving me making them again. Maybe.

Saturday morning I ran into town to see what I could find in the way of soldering options. I had already decided arc/mig welding wouldn't be good as the metal is very thin. When I was using the wire wheel on the grinder to clean the flaky paint off the top, the metal was bulging up and down just from the small amount of heat that generated. As it cooled, it laid flat again. Around town, most places had their weekend staff on roster and were not that knowledgeable. One didn't know what brass filler rods were for and another wanted to sell me a pack of 10x 45% silver-soldering rods for $110. I thanked him and left quickly.

I could only see the 2 small holes that show in the pics above, but in a few places I was getting sparks as the wire wheel went over some areas where the metal straps sat. When I had a really close look at these spots, I realised that the rust had made a sort of raised scab under the felt where the rivets held it to the strap. It was almost like the crust you get when stick welding that chips off, (if someone other than me does it). When I worked these spots over with the wire wheel a bit more, they cleaned out to bare metal. In the end I had around 7 small holes, mostly pin-head size, at the bottom of small craters.

I went back into town to check with another place. They have been around for years, have some really ancient and hard-to-get parts and stuff out the back, but can be frighteningly expensive, so I always ask first.
I showed them the pics and explained what I was doing and, similar to what Chazza suggested about gluing it, they recommended that I use some stuff called CRC Minute Mend. It is similar to that Knead-It 2 part putty. The blurb says "CRC Minute Mend is a fast convenient epoxy repair putty that mixes in just one minute for permanent emergency repairs. It bonds to wet or damp surfaces and can even be applied under water."
The idea is that I work with small sections at a time. Knead this stuff up, force it into the grooves and holes with a paint scraper and then sand it flush once it's fully cured. I will paint over it later, but it will be under the new rubber strip replacing the old felt padding, so won't be seen.

I gave the whole tank a coat of Galmet Ironize, the rust converter/sealer. It is supposed to convert any remaining rust to iron chelate, which is inert. It has no effect on bare metal. Once it has done it's job, it forms a coating like varnish which you can paint over. I think the primer would work better on the bare metal so before I fill the holes and prime the tank, I will clean it off with thinners. The boss is going on another 2 week holiday starting Tuesday, so I foresee some short days coming up. I hope to get it cleaned, patched, primed and painted for next weekend.

After I cleaned the tank and ran around town until everywhere I wanted to go was shut at lunch, I came home to have another go at the damn driver's side brake master cylinder. With the use of vice-grips and much swearing, I got one nut and bolt out. That left 2 bolts. Interestingly, these 2 come in from opposite sides, so I have a nut and bolt head on each side. The nut on the outside came off without holding the bolt head under the truck, so either the bolt is seized in the aluminium casting or chassis rail, or it has a captured washer on the inside, stopping it from turning. I can't get into a position where I can see. It's in a narrow gap between the fixed cross-member and the removable one that the transfer case hangs off. I can get a finger onto the nut below it, but not a socket, as it is directly in line with the bracket that holds the hand-brake rod pivot. This is welded to the transfer case cross-member. I can't get my hand in to get a spanner on it, but I just realised that if I cut a hole in the deck timber just above, I might be able to get the ring end of a combination spanner onto it and it would lock against the chassis rail if I turn the bolt from outside.

Cutting a hole in the deck isn't a problem, other than that I have to move the 3 almost new spare tires that are stacked and strapped down and are right in the way. Typical. I have to replace all the timber in the deck anyway as it is rotten. When you look up from underneath, there are big patches of white fungus growing on it. I plan on using Southern Bluegum, Eucalyptus globulus. It's a harder timber than the "Tas Oak" milled around here and has a much higher durability rating. I just need to find a sawmill on the east coast that is still operating and see what sizes they can provide. The boards can be oversized as I have a bench planer and thicknesser to get them to their final sizes. The issue is finding someone milling the stuff who would do a small run of 12 boards at 4.5m lengths.

Anyway, that will do for tonight. Thanks for taking the time to read through my thread.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on September 26, 2016, 12:50:16 PM
Hi Greg, really enjoy your thread and I am going through similar issues.  Firstly, I have been restoring a number of old 1956 Jerry cans, ex army and as would be expected, they come standard at this age with leaks.  So after a wet weekend of stripping rust and galvanizing, the leaky cans are off to the local radiator repairer who will solder up the leaks and run a thicker coating of solder over the thinner, sensitive areas of metal.  As you have suggested, he is an 'older' tradesman and knows his business.  His advice and recommendations have worked well for him with no returns in the past after treating many hundreds or tanks/cans. 

Next item, near where I live there are a number of hardwood mills privately owned and I have approached one to get new deck timber for my F1.  I am following their advice on correct timber type as close to the original as possible.  The timber will be kiln dried, and when I get my quote I am happy to share this with you as it may be cheaper or more expensive as the case may be.  Anyway, it may give you a reference point, or even a contact to follow for your own timber. 

Cheers for now -
Frank
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 26, 2016, 09:19:28 PM
Just a tip on the timber.
When you get it, rack it for a few weeks in the same conditions that your truck is in. If the truck lives out in the weather, stack your new timber there too. I intend to rack my timber on the deck of the truck until I am ready to replace it.
If you get kiln dried timber and machine it up to the correct sizes and then fit it and leave the truck out in the weather, the timber will still swell and move a bit, no matter how seasoned it is. It's all about the moisture content.
My boss got caught out in a similar situation. We built a 1.2m x 1.2m Blackwood table out of 30mm thick timber that had been racked in our back office for over 3 years. After it was built, it sat in the back room for another few months until he had finished his home reno. In that time it never moved.
He took it home and within 2 weeks the timber top had split from end to end in 3 places. We had glued and screwed lengths of timber cross ways under the top to help stop it bowing or twisting and these had stopped the timber from shrinking as it dried out. His house has gas central heating, ducted through every room. This dried it out to almost 0% moisture content and the timber let go along the grain instead of breaking the glue and biscuit joints.
Most kiln operators dry the timber to almost 0% moisture content and then steam condition it back to near ambient outdoor moisture content. If you rack it in the same conditions that it will be eventually used, then machined to slightly undersize in width for the truck deck, you shouldn't get any nasty surprises. If you machine it dry, fit it and it absorbs moisture to bring itself up to ambient MC, you run the serious risk of the timber cupping at best, or deforming the steel channel/snapping the decking bolts at worst. Some timbers are worse than others for longitudinal or tangential expansion/contraction. If you let me know what timber you decide on I can look up the structural properties for you.

For my deck, I am a bit limited in what I can easily get down here. Of course I could always buy interstate, but the freight cost is a real killer.
The local timbers used for construction are the 3 common euc species marketed as Tas Oak. They are ok strength-wise, but have relatively low durability outdoors.
Naturally grown, (non-plantation) Southern Tasmanian Bluegum, Eucalyptus globulus, is actually a lot stronger than "Tas Oak", and is way more durable. It used to be especially sought after for railway sleepers and bridge timbers but is not as common now as these things are now made from steel or concrete. With the forest industry collapse a few years back, many of the small sawmills that still worked with this timber shut down. I have a contact in the boat building industry down in Hobart that may know of a sawmill down the east coast or around Hobart that might still mill some. The trees aren't endemic to the central north or north-west coast areas, so it's not likely anyone in my area still works with it.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on September 26, 2016, 09:22:53 PM
Years ago ,I got a local mill to saw up some boards to do a Studebaker 6x6 tray.Rough sawn was half the price of anything else,so I went with it.The boards were supposed to be 1" thick,but varied from about 3/4 to 1 1/2".Now the mill is pink town houses,and the greens have closed every mill within 200 miles.I needed some step treads recently,and was quoted $50 a metre .Stuff that ,I thought ,Ive got a yard full of big trees.Unfortunately the council has protected them,with big fines if I cut them down.Im allowed to trim 20% per year,so I got my chainsaw and cut slices out without actually felling the tree.The council inspector was there before I finished cutting.Still ,I fixed the rotted stair treads.Need to fix the fence now.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on September 27, 2016, 09:17:03 AM
Really good advice from Greg regarding moisture content and distortion.

Years ago I made a timber-decked trailer; as long as I kept it in the shed all was well, when it lived outside it swelled up and destroyed the deck. The same thing happened to my truck.

 Either keep the canopy on to protect it, or use a shed. And don't forget to linseed oil it, at least twice a year,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on September 28, 2016, 09:53:12 PM
The Inter trays have a gap covered by a lockstrip,so swelling of the boards wont cause any buckling.At worst the wood will split,which wont compromise strength ,provided its not sawn across the grain.The last trucktray I replaced,I used boards meant for a semitrailer.The wood was about 30mm thick ,and hard as iron.The previous tray had been wrecked by loads of scrapmetal breaking the boards,but the new wood had no problem.Its been sitting in the yard unused for years and has just started to rot through now,mainly because its covered in leaves.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 01, 2016, 05:45:19 PM
Well, a bit of progress and another problem.
This afternoon it stopped raining for a while so I had another go getting the driver's side brake master cylinder off.
I had already managed to remove one nut and bolt completely, and the nut off the bolt coming through from the inside.
I tried to use a drift and hammer to knock the bolt back through, but I couldn't get a good angle and it seemed really stuck tight.
I got up on top and removed one of the short decking boards right over the cross-member that stops me getting at things from underneath.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-x7zvXqV/0/5066aae7/M/i-x7zvXqV-M.jpg)

With the board out, I was able to get a socket and ratchet on the nut and by turning it one tiny click at a time, I was eventually able to undo it.
With that out, I thought I should be able to just slide the master cylinder out, but the bolts were really tight where they went through the chassis rail and the aluminium casting of the mount.
By smacking it around with the soft-faced hammer for a while, I was able to free it up enough to get the end of a tire lever behind it and levered and wiggled it until it came loose.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-2PknkVf/0/49999773/M/i-2PknkVf-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-HgJPd7P/0/efe87e59/M/i-HgJPd7P-M.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-wfQDDmf/0/1ec60af0/M/i-wfQDDmf-M.jpg)

It's a bit scruffy, but not badly corroded. I figured I would pull it apart, give it a clean out, sandblast and repaint.
When I opened the air chamber I got a nasty surprise. All the missing brake fluid was in there.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-PHmPjKw/0/3bb8ce1f/M/i-PHmPjKw-M.jpg)

It looks like the rear seal in the master cylinder has failed. At least it is clean brake fluid this time. The diaphragm looks to be in good condition too.
If it isn't raining tomorrow I will strip it all down and see what else needs replacing.
I now have the fuel tank patched, sanded and primed. Tomorrow it will get a top coat and if there is time I will remove the tank mounts and give them a clean-up too.
With those off, I can also clean up the flaky paint along the chassis rail. That should make it look a bit neater.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 02, 2016, 03:08:31 PM
Well, I got it all apart and degreased. The 2 rubber buckets in the brake master need replacing. They both showed considerable wear on the edges and had a lot of small cracks when I flexed them. The rubber is pretty soft and leaves black stains on anything it touches. The spring and valve are fine. The inside bore is shiny, with no pitting or signs of wear. Same with the steel piston. The spoonful of brake fluid that was still inside was clean and green.

I gave everything a good blast in the sandblasting box, then washed it all down with wax & grease remover before painting with primer. I packed everything away before it clouded over and when I was putting the painted bits into the laundry to dry, I found I had forgotten the spring band that clamps the end cover, diaphragm and actuator body together. Really annoying. Oh well. If I get an afternoon without rain after work, I will get set up again and blast the band and a couple of brake drum backing plates that I have been meaning to do for a while.

My compressor is struggling with the sandblaster. It works fine for nail guns and air tools, but just doesn't have the flow for running a sandblaster, even the little thing I have in the box. I did see one of those diesel compressors that you tow behind a truck, for running jack-hammers and stuff, for sale on the side of the road last week. Wonder what those are worth? Should have enough flow then.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on October 02, 2016, 10:09:33 PM
Diesel compressors are great when they are in good nick,but costly to fix if anything is wrong.Its actually better to buy a really old one with a piston compressor,than a more modern vane or screw compressor.Both these require a oil separator element that has to be replaced regularly and costs $500 plus.The old[1950s] CP had the separator stuffed with wood shavings and wool,and could be rebuilt,more modern ones are like a giant oil filter.Piston compressors dont need them.Vane and screw units also have large quantities of compressor oil,200litres in a big one, that needs changing regularly.Still,sandblasting is great provided the EPA dont get ya,and hit you with a $10,000 fine.Keep a low profile.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Diana Alan on October 02, 2016, 10:41:29 PM
Lots of old Detroit diesels have been turned into compressors have even heard of 6V53 and 6V72s having one bank converted for compressor use while the other bank provides the power.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on October 03, 2016, 09:37:53 AM
One of my maintenance jobs years ago, was to repair a wet bead-blasting cabinet. The boss had bought it on ebay secondhand and it had some corroded parts; however; when I got it going, it really worked well and was used for cleaning heads and ancillaries.

It might be worthwhile investigating one of them, but it needs a big compressor as well.

I prefer to keep it simple and cheap and use molasses,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 03, 2016, 04:11:25 PM
Thanks all, for the comments.

My sandblasting cabinet is very like the one in the pic below.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/General/n-8PbcjV/i-cR3PLZF/0/eee4fd39/S/i-cR3PLZF-S.jpg)

There is a rack in the bottom for you to sit the parts on while cleaning, but I tossed it in the first hour. It jambs the pickup hose and I found I have to constantly sweep grit down to the pickup as the angle of the base isn't steep enough for it to flow down itself.
It comes with a 12v fluoro light across the back. This is totally useless. There is a pleated air filter on the right end and a simple foam filter on the back. Neither do much and block up very fast. I pulled the foam out of the back one and it lets the dust out, which has improved visibility a bit. I am going to remove the pleated filter and fit a fan instead, blowing in. I wear a double filter mask when using this, as the dust coming out can't be good for you. I found I needed the mask even when I had both filters on. Just poor design and cheap manufacturing.

The only way I can see what I am doing is to lay my LED floodlight on the perspex top and stand a sheet of ply up at the back. I then drape an old sheet of cardboard from a solar panel box over the top to keep the outside light out. If I hold the part up close to the perspex, I can sometimes make out what I am doing, although I have to keep opening the lid to see it better. Once the fan is installed, I am hoping it will help by forcing a lot of the dust out the back, making it easier to see inside.

I had thought my compressor was fairly good, as it is a double cylinder type and seemed pretty solidly made. Now that I read the specs, it's only 150 litres a minute, so that's around 5.25 cu/ft. Not much at all. Definitely not enough for continuous sandblasting.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on October 03, 2016, 08:47:10 PM
On industrial filter units,there is a timed air blast that knocks the dust from the filter and lets it fall into a trap.In my experience the wet process dust collection is far better,but does use considerable water,and deposits mud that has to be removed.In industrial blasting they generally use steel grit,which doesnt deteriorate into dust.Its reckoned that garnet turns to dust in three passes of the system.I havent been in the industry for years,but we were paying a lot for garnet,in small lots its $1/kg.The payoff is production.The crowd I worked for could blast a 40ft container inside and out in about 1 hr.All done in blastrooms ,of course.I assume you all know using white sand for dry blasting is illegal,as well as being a health hazard.I have seen some funny things,like a blaster cutting slots in a classic car bonnet,and another time the council turned up to investigate outdoor blasting,and the guy frosted the windscreen and windows in the car.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 04, 2016, 09:17:40 AM
Thanks for that.
I was using garnet originally. It is $34 for a 20kg bag, think it was from WA.
The stuff I used recently is a white silica that is mined about 30 mins down the road and sold in 20kg and 1.2t bags.
It certainly strips paint and rust faster than the garnet, but seems to pulverise to dust faster. I didn't know it was meant only for wet blasting. Didn't mention that on the bag.
I wear my twin filter respirator and motocross goggles as the dust gets everywhere. After working a while, you can't run your fingers through your hair. I'm just going to use garnet from now on though, as less dust means I might actually see what I am blasting.
When I first started I was using the black grit sold at supercheap. It is very fine, dense, and turns your skin black. Not sure what it was but you go through it really fast and it's way more expensive. Something or other oxide.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on October 04, 2016, 10:59:04 PM
The story of the WA garnet is a strange one.The deposit is immense ,and pure pink sand.Indian garnet is a dirty brown .Anyhoo, the WA deposit is a real gold mine,and is owned by the Exclusive Bretheren Sect.Forty years ago,it was worthless.A couple of guys camped there in the bush,trying to do something with it.Then the Govmint banned blasting with white sand.Garnet took off.Other [legal] blasting abrasives are generally dearer and less effective.In Queensland /N.NSW we have always used Ilmenite ,a by product of mineral sand processing.Its black,very fine and very heavy.4 ton/cu meter.Dont get caught dry blasting with white sand.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 18, 2016, 01:01:30 PM
I've got a week off work, with the main intention being to get lots done on my truck, but the weather isn't playing the game.
Yesterday I managed to remove the shield from under the fuel tanks, the 2 support brackets that the rear tank sits on and the brake master cylinder off the passenger side.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-hkNBJ7v/0/9e6aed75/M/i-hkNBJ7v-M.jpg)

The shield is in very good condition, with just a bit of light surface rust and a few dents to belt out. I'll clean it up and repaint it.
The supports are a bit rougher. Here is a close-up of one of them after I cleaned it up with the wire wheel.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-MXCcn8P/0/4787da2f/M/i-MXCcn8P-M.jpg)

As you can see, the support is made up of a bent length of heavy walled channel with a length of 4" wide flat sheet steel wrapped around the back for strength and tack welded along the edges.
It looks like the moisture has gotten into the gap and caused the flat sheet steel to spall into rust chunks. When I tapped along the edge to loosen it up, a lot fell out, leaving some very thin sections of metal.

What do you all think? I could grind the tack welds off and replace the whole sheet, or I could just do the section along the bottom, up to the corner. The rest is in good condition, but it wouldn't take much extra effort to do the whole length. The other support is pretty much the same. I had a look at the 2 supports under the front tank but they look as good as new. I think this is because the oil leaking from the Abbey hoist has dripped onto the tank for years, protecting everything.  ;D

I managed to get replacement rubbers for the 2 brake master cylinders. After chasing them through the NSN number and getting nowhere, a local car parts place managed to find modern versions. For anyone who needs to know in the future, the front seal, shaped like the lid off a camera film container, is P962. The rear one, shaped like a ring with a lip, is P1338A. Both fitted perfectly and with a tiny smear of rubber grease, popped straight back in the bore, once I gave it a light hone. I'll finish putting it back together tonight and get a few After pics as a comparison. If these annoying showers stop, I'll get the passenger side unit stripped down and see how bad it is. Then sandblast everything, prime and paint.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on October 18, 2016, 08:32:25 PM
(http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a521/Ravvin/Inter%20F1%20180-971/Tank%20Support%20Closeup_zpsqkmljbvm.jpg)

...
What do you all think? I could grind the tack welds off and replace the whole sheet, or I could just do the section along the bottom, up to the corner.

If it was mine, I would repair it until where the metal is in good condition,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Acco 4x4 on October 22, 2016, 09:20:06 PM
Hi Greg, Love your work!!!!!
Sounds like they are a bit far gone..... Wouldn't it be quicker and easier to fab up a new set? Eg. standard square hollow section say (without seeing the actual size of the folded unit on the truck) 30 x 30 x 2.5-3mm thick and a length of flat bar about 3-4mm thick and how ever wide and laminate it onto the square section..... could use dura gal too never rust again... :) will end up with the same profile.
Tim
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 22, 2016, 10:49:05 PM
Oh it's not that bad. It's only the flat bar on the back that has rusted and spalled. I started cutting the welds with a thin grinder cutting disk and the folded section is not even pitted. I'm thinking it is an issue with water sitting in the narrow gap and over time, eating it away. Once I grind the last of the weld away I don't think anyone would ever know it was rusted.
The flat bar on the back is exactly 100mm across and 3.5mm thick. The folded section that it is welded to is 110 wide, mostly, so it sticks out past the flat bar a bit either side, and that is where is it welded. I'll do the same.
I can't get into the recess in the back with the wire cup on the grinder, so I'll try the big wire wheel on the bench grinder. Once it's really clean, I'll prime and paint the inside with something decent. One of the guys at work is an ex-boilermaker and is being volunteered to assist me with re-welding the backs on. He also suggested heavy galv for the new backs.

One issue he noticed that I missed was that there are 3 captured nuts welded to the edge of the bottom section. These are for the bolts that hold the tank bash plate on. I will cut the new backs, clamp them on along the bottom, mark the hole centres and then drill them at work on the big pedestal drill. That's one thing I don't have at home yet. That and room. I have a rental inspection on Tuesday and spent most of today removing truck bits from inside, stashing them in the truck cabs until its over. I don't see an issue with having a half rebuilt brake master unit or a disassembled Garwood Olding 20,00lb winch on the floor in the lounge room, but my sister believes normal people would have. People are weird.

Anyway, once the 3 holes are drilled, I can fit the back plates, do up the 3 bolts to hold it perfectly aligned, and get it welded. He suggested tacking it in a few places then running the weld in 1" strips, alternating sides to reduce distortion. The fun part will be bending it neatly around the corner, but if we clamp as we go and tack it too, it should come out ok. The holes in the upright section can be drilled after it is all welded, as there are no nuts welded there that would be in the way. Should look good. Until I paint it and refit it. Nobody will ever know it isn't original.

I gave the second brake master unit it's last top coat today, so I might get it reassembled tomorrow if I get the house tidying done. The first one looks really good, better than original.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on October 24, 2016, 07:58:53 PM
Greg - its a pity more Acco owners are land lords!  It would make things a whole lot easier! ;)

Keep up the great work - I really enjoy your thread!   :)

Frank
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on November 05, 2016, 09:24:03 PM
Thanks for that. The inspection went so well that I'm pretty sure she didn't actually come inside.
I got the second master cylinder completed. They look pretty good.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-NnxCNqp/0/54d87630/M/i-NnxCNqp-M.jpg)

I noticed just now that the wear indicator rod is sticking out further on one than the other. I think the big coil spring may have moved and the rod is sitting on one of the coils. I'll have to pop it open and try to centralise it a bit better before I refit them.

We have a 3 day weekend down here, for some reason, and I planned on getting a lot more done. As usual, something comes along to stuff it up. While it's not raining, it's blowing 48 km/h and gusting to 57. Everything I put down tries to take off. I tried doing some sand blasting but my little awning that blocks the light out so I can see what I'm cleaning blows away every few seconds. Nowhere I can work out of the wind except inside, and the truck won't fit in here. If it did, it would be in here though.
I went out the back and managed to remove the front fuel tank, which is the one that was being used. It has just under 4 gallons of petrol in it, so I will have to be a lot more careful with this one.
When I lifted the rear strap up, it lifted a big chunk of rust spall up with it and I found out where the strong fuel smell was coming from.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-VMfpGHX/0/338cc613/M/i-VMfpGHX-M.jpg)

It didn't look too bad as I carried it down to the house. It looked like a large depression, but when I sloshed it around I found petrol seeping out. When I got it on the bench, I gave it a light rub with the wire brush to see how bad it was and if there were other places I needed to fix. That's when I found the big hole that you can see in the pic above.
I'll drain it and wash it out with soapy water before doing anything else to it. Just too risky. Once I clean it up I'll decide whether I bog it or cut the piece out and weld in a patch. If it's bad enough to need a patch, I'll fix it but use it on the MK3, if I ever get that far. The 2 tanks that I have removed from the MK3 seem to be in pretty good condition, so I'll pick the best and use it on this one.

Another thing I found was when I unscrewed the fuel pipe from the top of the tank, it sprang away when I let it go. The pipe has been bent or twisted and this has caused it to press heavily against the chassis rail where it passes through the hole where the rubber grommet is supposed to be. All mine has is a sort of gooey black mess where it used to be. I think the pipe might have almost worn through, so I will have to remove it and see before refitting the tanks.

With that little job completed, I was able to get at the bolts for the tank supports. These ones came out a lot easier than the ones for the rear tank as I was able to get fairly clear access to the nuts on the back for all but 1 of the bolts. That one I had to get at through a hole in the deck as it was above the crossmember for the transfer case.
With those out of the way, I was able to get a nice clear look at the chassis rail and the spacer rail between it and the deck crossmembers.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Zp5L2Rp/0/fdf03300/M/i-Zp5L2Rp-M.jpg)

As you can see, it looks pretty rough. The chassis rail isn't too bad, but the spacer rail is much worse. Once I put the wheels back on the other side and let it down, I will jack this side up and remove the wheels for better access. Then I'll give it a good going over with the wire wheel on the grinder, then a coat of Ironize, then prime and paint. Really, it needs to be in a shed where I can lift the deck right off. Then I could get at the insides of the chassis rails with a pressure washer to blast all the dirt and crud out. I found out today that the air lines and wiring bundle that run along the rail are buried under about an inch of dried mud. I need to get rid of it, but there is just no access. Once I remove some of the deck timbers I might have a better angle.

On the subject of cleaning things, check out the pics below.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-9DKLvzL/0/20f4a238/M/i-9DKLvzL-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-BM8TbDh/0/c76dac10/M/i-BM8TbDh-M.jpg)

While the tanks are off, I will have a go at degreasing and pressure washing the diffs/power dividers and the transfer case, gearbox/hydraulic pump and engine. At least the weather is warming up, so I'll just be filthy and wet instead of filthy, wet and frozen. With a bit of luck it will kill a lot of the grass I have to keep mowed.

Well, I still have 2 more days off, so I might get more done. I'll post it up if I get anything significant done.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on November 07, 2016, 07:29:54 PM
As usual, nothing went to plan. Spent most of yesterday fixing a gas fridge for mum, who commented on how it seems these things always break down on weekends or times when the proper repair people are off on holiday. Last time this happened, it was the Xmas to New Year time and everyone who could repair gas fridges had shut down for their yearly holiday. Luckily, after the last episode, I was able to narrow it down to a partially blocked gas injector. Same issue as 10 months ago. How can gas be dirty? If it was the burner mesh blocking up, I could understand it, but it is just a brass fitting that has a 0.370mm hole through it for the gas to flow. It then goes through a fitting where it draws air in at atmospheric pressure so it emerges at the burner gauze mixed. Same principal as on the old Primus gas burners. The area that blocks up only has gas from the bottle through it, so the gas must contain the particles. I am going to try to find a sintered brass filter that I can fit in the line after the regulator and before the fridge fitting. It will need to be large enough that it can still pass the required amount of gas even after catching 12 months worth of particles. I should be able to clean it out with metho or acetone or something. I'll have to chat to a fridgey or gas plumber.

Anyway, this morning it rained and blew. Now the sun is out but the wind is up. I cleaned the hole in the front fuel tank a bit and found that it is pretty much the only fault with this tank.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-6bTJtNT/0/948d2291/M/i-6bTJtNT-M.jpg)

I checked the 2 off the MK3, but I think they are worse. One has a row of rust spalls across both front curved sections where the strap ran. I had to remove the straps from the other one before I could check it out.
It's better, but not great.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-gmMz6LS/0/9528c8a4/M/i-gmMz6LS-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-ZX8MbC9/0/d83a0662/M/i-ZX8MbC9-M.jpg)

As you can see, this one has a string of small pin-holes, but they are across the bottom. That seems to be a lot more of a problem to me. If the holes are in the top and get bogged, they should seal and it's less likely to leak as the fuel only touches there when it sloshes. On the bottom, any patch or bog is in constant contact with the fuel.
I also noticed that the fuel outlet fitting on the top of the tank points forwards on the MK3 and it uses a short copper pipe bent into a J shape to redirect it. The F1 has the outlet pointing straight back to the chassis rail. If I did use the MK3 tank, I could just turn the fitting around when I refitted it. I wonder why they did it like this in the first place?

I also realised I never took any pics of the rear tank after it was finished. So here they are.

Before:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-j5W2BhR/0/844c1f36/M/i-j5W2BhR-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-dnpnT9L/0/b7700257/M/i-dnpnT9L-M.jpg)

Partly cleaned up:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-QTgCsXQ/0/a9ac9639/M/i-QTgCsXQ-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-jRRHVbR/0/bf77957b/L/i-jRRHVbR-L.jpg)

Patched, primed and painted. 2 coats:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-qp2VBtv/0/c91a5afa/M/i-qp2VBtv-M.jpg)

I looked at the 2 dimples in the front after I cleaned it up. I couldn't get at them from inside and I didn't want to drill a hole in them to pull them out. I don't know anyone with one of those welding things that spot weld a pin to a dent to allow it to be popped out. I considered just bogging it but figured that a thick lump of bog is likely to fall out some time. The tank is going to get dinged in the future, and for a truck built in 1968, a few dents are expected.

I'm taking the holed F1 tank and the leaky MK3 tank in to work to see if one of the guys is willing to have a go blowing themselves up, I mean welding a patch in. There are 2 trade qualified boilermakers there. One worked on steam vessels and systems at a weaving mill and the other spent a lot of time at a panelbeating business in the past. Between the 2 of them I'm hoping they will know what will work best.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on November 07, 2016, 09:31:33 PM

(http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a521/Ravvin/Inter%20F1%20180-971/Rear%20Tank%20After_zpsy2rsqf0q.jpg)

I looked at the 2 dimples in the front after I cleaned it up. I couldn't get at them from inside...

People who repair dented brass wind-instruments, use a dolly, which is a steel ball welded to a round bar, which has been bent to a suitable shape. I think on your tank, a piece of steel plate ground to the same radius as the top of the tank and welded to a suitable bar, would work well. It would require a helper and a flipper to raise the dent.

Sorry I did not mention this earlier but I couldn't see the dents before you put that u-beaut paint on it – nice work!

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on December 03, 2016, 06:07:08 PM
I finally got to do a bit more today.
I made new brake lines for the rear axle and fitted them. They are very different from the originals, but they hug the axle housing and so should be less likely to be hooked by scrub and sticks.
I fitted the rare earth magnet to the diff plug, refitted it and refilled the rear diff with oil. I pulled the diff breathers apart to clean them but found that they have a light spring and a little plug inside them,
that has totally rusted away. I think the idea is that they keep the diff sealed until it builds up to around 0.5psi, then allows the expanding air out.
I had a bit of a think about it and came up with a better idea.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-RHHZ38b/0/d36fe776/M/i-RHHZ38b-M.jpg)

I got a 1/8" NPT barb to screw into the diff and clear plastic tube that I ran up the nearby brake line. On the open end, up under the chassis rail, I fitted another barb with a sintered brass filter on the end. This should let it breath and also keep the mud wasps out. It's all neatly clipped up to the brake hoses with cable ties so should be ok.

After that, I sprayed some degreaser around the diff and power divider, as they have layers of caked on grease and grime. I left it a bit to soak in then gave them a blast with the pressure washer. A lot came off but there is a lot left. When the ground dries out a bit I'll get back under and scrape and chip at what's left, then give it another go with the degreaser.

While under there, I realised that I am going to have to lift the tray off. There is a layer of rust between the chassis rail and the spacer rail under the tray. It looks almost like when a layer of ply delaminates. Once I get a fuel tank back on, I will start it up and try to find a level spot out the back. I will remove all of the U-bolts holding the tray down and then jack it up and sit it on drums and packing, then drive out from under it.
With the tray off, I will be able to clean the chassis rails and get at the brake lines much more easily.

With the ground under the back of the truck all wet, I decided to do something that I have been avoiding for a while. I got under the front and tried finding the engine number. The F1 User Manual says that it should be on a flat area on the right side if the engine, just under the air compressor mounting bracket. They lied!
I scraped and brushed everything I could get at, and after getting covered in grease and dirt, I finally realised that there was nothing there. Unless it is actually on the block behind the compressor mounting bracket, there is actually no room between the bottom of the bracket and the sump pan that would be wide enough to stamp a number.

While cleaning crud off, I did find a rebuild plate. That was pretty exciting.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-LrkZbkf/0/6f07d65a/M/i-LrkZbkf-M.jpg)

I managed to get a fairly decent pic of it too.

After that, I thought i might just as well check the regular place for an engine number, down on the left side of the engine on the top face next to the oil filter pressure bypass adapter. Yep, there it was.
With a bit of degreaser and a scrub with a bronze brush, I got the pic below.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-WCXQMGt/0/5bb70371/M/i-WCXQMGt-M.jpg)

As you can see, it is 6 - 283 - 05317.
Now this is where it gets interestinger.
The REMLR list shows my truck, chassis number ADE 6X6 3588, as being a 1972 Truck, Cargo, 5 Ton, GS, With Winch. It's engine number is listed as 6 - 283 - 12376.
The plate in the cab agrees with the chassis number and that it is a Truck, Cargo, 5 Ton, GS, With Winch, but it insists that it is from 1969.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-wcjSFxD/0/58fbdddb/M/i-wcjSFxD-M.jpg)

I searched through the REMLR lists for the engine number and found it was from a Truck, Dump, 5 Ton, GS, With Winch, so an F2 from 1968 with chassis number 2321.
So nowhere on my truck have I seen anything about it having the Abbey Crane. From what I can work out, it must have been a regular F1 Cargo and had the Abbey fitted while in service at some point. It has the little ladder platform for servicing and all of the operating instruction plates on the roof, even if they are so faded that I can't read them, and the lifting weight limit plate in the cab. At some point I am going to need to find out how to actually work the thing, so I can see what needs overhauling.

Earlier in the week, I had a play with one of the wheels. It seems that between the 2 trucks, I have 6 galvanised rims, so they are all going on this truck.
The first one I picked out held air, but had this weird patch on the side wall. There are no signs of any problems on the inside though.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-8QZZwhJ/0/35366c33/M/i-8QZZwhJ-M.jpg)

Looking at it, it seems to be like a large blister. I was able to poke a screwdriver into that little hole and wiggle it around. It went in over 2". The rubber is soft to the touch, almost like silicon.
I looked up a few Youtube videos on changing tires on 3 piece rims, which were somewhat helpful. I took the valve stem out and let it go down. Next I applied lubricant to the bead. This was actually just laundry detergent that I had dissolved in a bucket of water to soak one of my weekend work shirts in, as it got covered in smelly gear oil. I remember removing a tire with Allan, (Red Rocket/Restless Rover), years ago and we used a short section of angle iron on the tire, against the steel edge. Then we belted it with the sledge hammer to force the tire down off the bead. It took forever as you had to chase the bit of angle after every swing. In the videos, they used a tool like a sledge hammer but with an edge like a curved, blunt chisel. They swung it and hit the tire right on the bead edge, without belting the rim. I doubted my accuracy, as I can't hit the same spot twice with an axe, so I tried a modification. I didn't have one of their tools, but I had a mattock. I put the edge on the bead, against the rim/lockring, and belted the spike on the back of the mattock with a 4lb mini sledge. Surprisingly, this worked. 2 good hits and the tire slid off the bead. I worked my way around and the outer ring dropped down. With that down, I was able to hook out the lock ring with the tire levers and worked it around until I could pull it off. With that and the outer ring off, I turned the tire over and tried breaking the bead on the back. That was a waste of time. The rim is held up off the ground by the tire, so it can't come free. Eventually I remembered one video where he had made up a stand from a smaller rim that he dropped the tire onto. I borrowed a rim from work and tried that. With the truck rim sitting up off the ground, it only took a few hits on the mattock to have the tire slip free.
From there, all I had to do was stand the tire up, pull out the tube protector and tube, and the main part of the rim just fell out onto the ground. Easy, just strenuous as everything weighs heaps.
I pumped up the tube to see what sort of condition it was in and found it had a single patch and an area where they had roughed it up to patch and then realised that they had missed the hole. It stayed pumped up all week, so should be ok to reuse.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-552wtDG/0/b0475f98/M/i-552wtDG-M.jpg)

I gave the rim and rings a good going over with the wire wheel. There was no rust, but there was a lot of rough sections, especially around where the lock rings go and on the other side where the tire seats. I think a lot of it was a mixture of dirt that got forced into the gap and rubber that came off the tires over the years. There were places where I think the paint was 5 layers thick.
With it all cleaned off, I primed it and it is ready to go back together. I have to pick out a decent tire from my collection and once it's all together, I will paint all visible areas with the olive drab, just like it used to be.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-s63NmwN/0/b54d0ae7/S/i-s63NmwN-S.jpg)

While the mattock worked, belting it with a sledge hammer was a bit rough on it. I have to clean up the edge with the grinder before using it again and the main blade has sharp edges that could cut the tire or gouge the rim.
I chased around and found the tool in the pic below.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-H3wvLmC/0/96a7a247/M/i-H3wvLmC-M.jpg)

This weighs 4lb and is specifically designed for breaking beads and being flogged with big hammers. I also brought a stump home from one of my harvest operations, and will reshape it a bit to make getting tires off a bit easier.

Next job is to take the toolbox off on the passenger side. With that off, I can clean the outside of the chassis rail and repaint it. After that, once I get another rim & tire cleaned & changed, I can fit them on the passenger side and then do the same to the driver's side. Then clean up and refit the fuel tank supports, fuel tanks, and the stone guard under them.
I got the second tank back from the radiator repairers. 

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-nhmvM4z/0/e36ada93/S/i-nhmvM4z-S.jpg)

I'm not really happy with the finished look. They cut out the rusted section and patched it, but they wrapped a strip of flat bar around where the tank restraint strap lays. They didn't clamp it flush to the tank surface before welding it, so it is up and down all along the length of it and the welds are really rough. I am going to clean up all the welds and repaint the whole tank, to match the other one. I might look at using wider tank restraint straps and insertion rubber to cover the ugly strip.

Oh well, that will do for now. With Xmas coming up fast, I am hoping for some good weather during my time off, to get plenty done. Will post here as things happen.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dugite on December 04, 2016, 08:15:30 AM
Even though I'll never have an Inter I've really been enjoying your comprehensive posts Greg- well done!
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on December 04, 2016, 09:53:20 AM
Top work Greg! You have taught me a new way to break a bead.  :)

When I was in the Army, we used to drive over the flat tyre and then the bloke on the ground would rotate the wheel and the driver would reverse back over it and so on; it was laborious but worked.

There are slide-hammers available for bead-breaking; they look like a crowbar with a sliding heavy tube on them; the advantage is that you can stand up and no fingers get hit.

Another method which works on Land Rover rims, is to force a hi-lift jack-base down onto the tyre, whilst trying to lift the vehicle; it may not work on a truck tyre though.

Did the Youtube video mention the dangers of inflating the tyre and the split-rim coming off. Ideally the tyre is inflated in a steel cage; in the field we used to face the split-rim towards the ground and kid ourselves that by standing back we were safe,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on December 04, 2016, 06:19:30 PM
I've broken beads on car and 4wd tires by driving over them and also using a high-lift jack, like you said. These tires are really old and very stiff. As I was alone, it would be a bit tricky trying to drive over them, having to reposition and drive over them again. I remember the 4wd tires tended to flip up and be a pain.

I'm not sure if it was because the rims were galvanised and there was no rust at all, or if I was just lucky, but the tire I removed came off really easily.
I am going to reshape the log section I brought home and fit the car rim on top with a couple of big coach screws to stop it moving. Once that's done, I'll get my sister to come over and video me taking the next one off and I'll post it here. Knowing my luck, and because it's being recorded, it will probably stick or find some other way to go wrong. We'll see.

As for re-inflating them and seating the bead, I watched a few clips showing what happens when they let go. I intend to turn the tire so it's ring side down and lay it flat on the ground. I will stack a few tires on top for extra weight. I have a lock-on type tire inflation fitting so I will set the regulator on the compressor to 60psi and wait till it stops hissing. Lots of tire lube and we'll see what happens. The compressor hose is really long, so I can do this out in the back paddock, away from breakable things.

I saw the slide-hammer type bead breakers, but they are all around $400. I just wouldn't get enough use out of them to justify spending so much. I could have a go at making one, with a star picket driver and old crowbar, but the cost of buying those, even second-hand, is more than I paid for the tool that I bought.

Watch this space for a video, coming soon. Maybe.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Scary on December 04, 2016, 06:34:45 PM
Regarding the safety of split rims, I always seat them as well as possible with a lump hammer, lay them ring side down and then slide them under the chassis rail to inflate so if it does let go it will be a loud bang and not a flying projectile, just a thought.......
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on December 05, 2016, 02:35:19 PM
Greg - as always,  I like your post - always informative - Just a word with the split rims  - we always threaded HT load chain around the tyre through the centre of the wheel many times at least 60 degrees apart and more turns equally spaced if we had longer chain. shackle the ends together and  there you have a mobile safety cage.  On some occasions, I had to tap the split rims to settle them in so they came up evenly.    The chain saved us on one occasion!   :)

Frank
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Mick_Marsh on December 05, 2016, 06:26:09 PM
Watch this space for a video, coming soon. Maybe.
What? Of a disc shaped UFO?
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on December 05, 2016, 06:37:20 PM
Spot on Mick! The chain is passed around the outside of the tyre (with a little bit of slack) then through the centre and with a twist and then threaded over the tyre then through the centre again etc all the way around where the ends or one end and a link is shackled securely.

 ;)
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Acco 4x4 on December 05, 2016, 09:21:30 PM
Might sound a bit lazy but i just bought a tire machine! Picked up a wheel balancer too and I'm away! :) Its paid for itself many times over and earned me many beers along the way. I defiantly agree with the chain thing, it will stop any unwanted projectiles.....
P.S both machines owe me under $600..... make eBay your friend! lol :D :D :D :D
Oh and Greg, I still love your work mate! Top Job!!!! 
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on December 07, 2016, 09:21:21 PM
When you have a crane ,no other help is needed.You use the outrigger leg to push the case away from the lockrings,any one ever owned a bricktruck soon learned how to use the crane to change tyres without any effort or swearing.You also use the outrigger as a jack to change wheels.Another handy trick is using a forklift mast to change wheels on a forklift.The boss s son couldnt figure it out,and told me not to do it,cause "it was dangerous".Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on December 10, 2016, 03:01:31 PM
^ This is how they do it when they change a tire on the skidders and forwarders. They even made up a shaped plate that fits in the end of the crane boom so it slips under the ring and pushes the tire off the seating bead.

I just came in for lunch after playing with the truck all morning. Getting hot earlier every day now.

Here is a pic of my tire changing block. It works really well.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-T4B9qsP/0/257888d0/M/i-T4B9qsP-M.jpg)

You have to get the height right or it won't work.  Too low and the tire touches the ground when you try to break the bead on the front under the lock ring. Too high and it gets knocked over when you drop the wheel onto it to push the rim out. I have to lower this one about 2 inches to be perfect.

I started off by stuffing the tube back into the tire and fitting the tube protector band. I partly inflated it to pop any wrinkles and creases out. Next I lifted the rim centre back in. Then, I realised i couldn't get the valve stem back far enough to go through the slot in the rim. I pulled the rim, tube and tube protector band out again and squeezed all the air out of the tube. I carefully stuffed it all back in, then slid the rim in far enough so I could get my hand in from the front to shove the tube back enough to get the valve stem lined up and through the slot. From there, I was able to slide the rim in further, working the tube and protector around so they weren't pinched between the rim face and the outer lip of the tire. Once I had the tube aligned just right, the tube protector band just slipped into place by itself. From there, all I had to do was let the wheel fall onto it's face. The weight of the rim dropping like that almost seated the bead on the back. I slathered on some lube and carefully rolled it over to the tire stump and flipped it on. The weight of the tire pressing down was enough to give me enough room to put the outer ring in place. I had the valve out so I gave it a quick squirt of air to pop any creases out of the tube them stood on the ring for a while to squeeze much of the air back out. I put the lock ring in place, with the open ends directly opposite the valve stem, and walked it around with just my weight. This was enough to get the lip of the lock ring aligned with the edge of the tire. From there, I was able to start at the open end of the lock ring and flogged it into place with a soft-faced hammer. It's really not difficult, but you need to keep your weight on it so it doesn't pop back out as you work your way around.
With the lock ring securely clipped onto the rim, I put some air in the tire, slowly and in squirts, to push the tire up a bit at a time so I could get the outer ring to line up. I think this is why people get the tires letting go when inflating. The ring is loose until the tire is aired up, and if you go fast the ring can hook under the edge of the lock ring on one side and be loose on the other. As I slowly inflated it, I was able to lever the ring across into place with a big screwdriver. At this point I doubt the tire even had 5 psi in it, but there was just enough to push the lips of the tire out a bit.
From here, I rolled the tire out the back into the paddock, connected the air hose and laid the tire face down on 2 sleepers so the locked-on inflater wasn't squashed into the dirt. I connected the other end of the hose and wound the regulator up to 40 psi. When it stopped hissing, I left it for a while, then wound it up to 60 psi.
Once filled, I went out and had a look. The bead had seated on the back so I flipped it up and took the hose off. The front had also seated properly. I checked the valve stem and there were no bubbles. The pressure showed 62.5 psi. I left it a half hour and checked again.  43.5 psi. Not good. I noticed a slight hissing when I touched the valve stem. Turns out that the valve stem is leaking where it joins the tube.
This tire was flat when I took it off the truck, but the valve was screwed almost all the way out. While I had the tube out, I had pumped it up to see if it held air, but I never put any real pressure into it. I didn't know what would be safe with it out of the tire, so just put enough in to make it round and firm. It was the same when I let it down the next day, so I figured it was good.
Once I let the tire down again, I rolled it over to my stump and had the lock ring off and the rim out in under 5 mins. That's the easy part. With the tube out, aired up and slathered in water and detergent, I was able to see the bubbles coming out of the whole where the valve stem is fitted. It looks like the tube has a pocket and the valve stem has a rubber disk about 3" across that fits into the pocket. I think it was already leaking when I took the tire off the truck, or I pulled it loose trying to get the stem through the slot in the rim. It may be fixable. I'll take it into Beaurepairs on Monday and ask. They are the only local place doing truck tires.
When I got the truck, I also got 3 used but good tires and 3 tubes and tube protector bands. I hadn't even looked at them. I dug them out and all the bands look good. One tube was actually a 10.00x20, not a 12.00x20, so I wasn't sure if I could use that. The other 2 tubes had a metal shield on the bottom of the valve stem and they needed a good wire brushing to clean the surface rust off. I aired up all 3 and found that the 10.00x20 was stuffed. It had a section about 2" long that had perished on a fold and as soon as the air started going in, it just split open. Oh well. One of the other tubes looked really good, with no odd patches or signs of perishing. The last tube stayed pumped up but has some patches with cracks and roughed up areas. I don't want to risk it so I will give it to the local scout group for their rafting trips.
I gave the good tube a wash down and squeezed all the air out. I fitted it back into the tire, with the tube protector band, and got the rim back in. This time it went a lot faster, but it's still heavy, tiring work. I aired it up a bit and got the outer ring and lock ring fitted and aligned. I rolled it out the back and aired it up again, same process as last time. I left it an hour and it is holding pressure. I have to bend the valve stem a bit though, as it is pressing hard against the hole in the rim.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-LKf5bWK/0/21f0a1d4/M/i-LKf5bWK-M.jpg)

Next time I have the paint open I will give it a coat of olive drab. If I get a chance I'll weigh one of these.

While the tire was resting, I took the plain steel rimmed tire off the F1 and switched it onto the MK3, as it had a single galvanised rim. I'll swap that tire over next which will give me 2 cleaned, painted and roadworthy wheels for the rear passenger side. 2 of the tires that came with the truck are in really good condition, so I will put them on the front. The other "new" tire and one of my other spares will go on the rear driver's side.
I ran the grinder and wire wheel over the rail that fits between the chassis rail and the tray cross-members to remove the flaking paint and clean up the rust patches a bit.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-jQ8M2mz/0/9b039e1a/Th/i-jQ8M2mz-Th.jpg)

On closer inspection, I found another issue. How surprising.  >:(

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-GKgr5Dr/0/5dc8377b/S/i-GKgr5Dr-S.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-TrsC5sD/0/389cbf2e/S/i-TrsC5sD-S.jpg)

There's a hole right through. The rail is just a folded up U section with some stiffening pieces put in where the chassis tie-down bolts sit. It is 140x75. I think I could replace it with a length of heavy-wall box section. This would have to be stronger. Looking along the rail, I can see areas where it has started to squash down.

Enough for now. I have to go mow the jungle. The neighbours are all out on their ride-ons and I only have a push mower. Wish I could concrete it all.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on December 10, 2016, 08:36:09 PM
If you had an early Landrover,you could hitch up a slasher and mow the yard.I once knew a little guy with one arm who could change wheels on a scraper by himself.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on December 11, 2016, 08:52:59 PM
I started removing the tire from the galvanised rim that I took off the MK3 yesterday. I'm glad I didn't try filming it. It certainly wasn't easy like the other one was. The cat and my neighbours may have learned some new words today.
The tire sidewalls were incredibly stiff. Even with the valve core removed and me standing on the tire, it wouldn't go down. I flipped it face up and gave it a good flogging all around the edge and managed to force the tire down just enough to lever the lock ring out. With that out and the outer ring removed, I flipped it over onto the tire stump and tried to break the back bead. No matter what I did, it wouldn't move. I flipped it back and found that the front bead was still tight on the rim. I tried levering it out with tire levers, but it immediately pulled back in. I got mad with it and hooked the compressor up. That got it out. I cut blocks of wood and stuck them into the gap between the rim and the tire and let it down. Now the weird thing. As the air came out, the tire actually pulled itself off the back bead. I managed to get the tube protector band out by working it around with 2 tire levers and then was able to remove the rim. From there it only took 30 mins to get the tube out. Yep, 30 mins. The tube was stuck to the inside of the tire, every square inch. At first I thought it was glued in and I had to get it started by working a tire lever down between the tube and the sidewall, levering it apart. Once I got to the stage where I could get my hand behind it, I worked it out enough so that I could lean back and pull on it. I couldn't move it. I rolled the wheel around until the loop of tube was at the top and leaned it up against the work bench. I climbed up and put my boot in the loop and jumped up and down, trying to pull it out. After falling over a few times, I gave that up. I eventually had to work it away from the sidewalls the entire way with the tire levers. I don't know if it had a coating that stuck it up like that, or if it was just age and deteriorating materials, but it was a real pain. I hope the 5 on the F1 aren't like that.

I pumped the tube up and it is holding air. I'll have to go over it and see if there is a date anywhere. It looks like it is in perfect condition, with all of the writing on it as clear as the day it went in, but the metal plate at the base of the valve stem is half rusted away. I'm starting to think it might pay to buy new tubes now, rather than reusing these and running the risk of having them blow out on the road or off in the bush. In the rain. At night. The usual. Nothing was open on the weekend so I will ask locally about pricing during the week. Cheapest I found online was one mob doing heavy duty 12.00x20 tubes for about $75, free freight, so I can use that for a comparison.

I went out and stared at the truck for a while, but still can't work out what half the valves and things on the crane do. If I knew how to work it, I would have used the stabilising legs to pop the beads and squish the air out of the tires. While there, I noticed it was leaking oil out of the breather on the crane reservoir again. It did it a bit when I first parked it and it killed the grass, so that was good. It stopped over winter and seems like it has started again since its warming up. I suspect that the seals in the control valve assembly are perished and are allowing air to leak in and the oil in the rams and hoses to run back down to the tank. I know it used to leak from the control valves as there is evidence of oil running down the back of the cab and someone has stuffed a big bundle of rags between the chassis rail and the cab to catch it. The top of the spare tire was swimming in oil and the rubber is badly affected. The spare was a plain steel rim, so it was protected from rusting.
I grabbed an empty oil drum and my hand pump and sucked out 10 litres. That dropped the level down to the Low mark on the dipstick. The oil looks like standards 20w-40 engine oil in colour and viscosity, but doesn't seem to have any smell and washed off my hands very easily. Odd stuff.

I started cleaning up the rim and rings. This one is off the MK3 and has had a lot of nasty chemicals from whatever they used to cart run over it. While it totally ate the tray, the galvanising has protected the rim pretty well. There is a thick layer of white zinc oxide on the back but when I hit it with the wire wheel on the grinder, it came off easily and showed clean, smooth metal underneath. There is still a bit of the galvanising left, but I have a drum of 2-pack zinc epoxy, so I will give it a coat when I mix a batch up to do the 4 rear mudguards and the stone guard from under the fuel tanks. It's good stuff. They use it for priming the metal when doing restoration work on bridges and wharf pilings, as it's able to handle salt and immersion in sea water. 8hr pot life when mixed, so plenty of time to get it all done. 

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on December 28, 2016, 09:59:35 PM
Its a lot of years since I last saw an Abbey crane,but they are a loose copy of the Hiab 174.To get the outriggers to work on the Hiab,you need to pressurize the system by dead ending another function,then run the ram up or down with the handle on the square top part.The handle must be returned to neutral,or the leg will go down under load.The Abbey may be the same.If so,you will need two persons to work the outriggers with the cabtop controlls.Some years ago I repiped an Abbey to work from the side like a normal crane,but the owner was determined to leave out the breakaway valve for the slew.Ok if the crane is only used on the level,dangerous otherwise.Anyway ,Ive got more trouble with the council,this time at my other yard,which has just been rezoned,and the rates put up to astronomical level.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on December 29, 2016, 07:26:46 PM
The last tube I took out of the wheel off the older MK3 has been left pumped up. It has held the air, but I found patches all across it that look sort of scaly. I think it is perished and didn't want to risk putting old tubes back in with the "new" tires so I ordered 6 new tubes for $66 each. They are supposed to be heavy duty and with the correct TR179A valve stems. I had to send them a photo of the rims as they couldn't understand why it mattered. If the valve stem was even 10mm shorter, you would have to remove the wheel to pump them up. They should get here early next week. 

Over the break, I have been working on rebuilding the middle axle, between the rain and other disruptions. Today I got the torsion plate, brake expanders and stub axle all refitted.
All have been cleaned up and repainted. The brake slave got a light hone and a new rubber seal. I bought enough seals to do both sides of the middle axle and also the 2 front wheel ones. Same brake slaves, and they are much simpler than the rear axle ones. If anyone needs them, ask at Repco or similar for P1499 1" brake seals. These were only $6 each.

When I removed the hub, I found that one of the brake shoe springs was on backwards. It was touching the back of the grease trap cover on the back of the hub. You could hear it when you turned the wheel by hand. There doesn't appear to be any damage to the spring though, and only some paint rubbed off the back of the grease trap cover, so no real problem.

I have to replace the outer bearing as it has a lot of score marks on the rollers. Oddly, the outer race is in perfect condition. There isn't a single scratch or mark on it at all. The rear bearing is good and I'll reuse it. The seal at the back of the hub is one of the old leather ones and was leaking a bit and will get replaced with a modern one. The grease was clean but was the colour of bright orange mashed pumpkin. I don't think it was the correct grease. At a guess, I would say that most of the oil or whatever makes grease slippery had leaked out and left the filler there. It's all cleaned out now though, and I have a big tub of bright blue axle grease to replace it with.

I took some pictures today, trying to get some clear shots of bits of the crane, and I think I might have worked out how it operates.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-hQXqMzZ/0/64094461/L/i-hQXqMzZ-L.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-KMQmWs4/0/91f04d33/L/i-KMQmWs4-L.jpg)

In the pics above, you can see knobs on the end of a long rod. The rod is attached to a valve that the RPS describes as a "valve, ball, stabiliser isolation & speed control". There are 2 of these valves on the crane and the other one is on the control box. I can read enough of the instruction plate to know it is the speed control. I think the idea is that you either pull or push the rod behind the cab, which lets the fluid through to the stabiliser leg control unit so one person can raise and lower the legs. When finished, you push the rod in and it shuts off the flow of fluid.

I got up on the tray and got a few good close-up pics.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-ZD3tGcs/0/4209ebed/M/i-ZD3tGcs-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-rPHLTBW/0/4214692b/L/i-rPHLTBW-L.jpg)

In the first pic above, you can see the pressure gauge and overload cut-out box on the left. I think this works like the overload unit on the winch, and shuts off the engine if you overload the system. The glass in the gauge is totally opaque. I'll have to see if I can either rebuild it or get a replacement. It's fluid filled, so might be tricky.
The ball valve on the far right is the speed controller. It is currently in the Fast position. I am guessing that it works by allowing some of the fluid flow to bypass the control box and return to the pump or reservoir, slowing down the crane movements.
As you can see in the pic above and to the right, the oil is leaking down the back wall of the cab and getting all over the chassis rail and front suspension. No rust there. It seems to be leaking out of the bottom of the 2nd Jib control valve. Looking at the parts diagram in the RPS, the valve units seem to be pretty simple. Most seals are O'rings. I'm looking forward to pulling it all apart, cleaning, painting and fixing the leaks.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-WCg2BPV/0/8c5dfdd1/M/i-WCg2BPV-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-35SSgBb/0/720ef2d5/M/i-35SSgBb-M.jpg)

The pics above came out very clear.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-LFrpc2f/0/f83d3bf8/L/i-LFrpc2f-L.jpg)

Unlike the one that tells you what the levers do.
When you get the angle just right, you can make out what each does, so I did a bit of photoshop on it. I drew over what I could see and left the rest.
Standing on the seat facing the back of the truck, the lever on the right is the First Jib. Pulling it towards you is Up and away from you is Down.
The second lever from the right is the Second Jib. Same directions as the first.
The third lever from the right is the Third Jib. Pulling it towards you is In and away from you is Out.
The left-most lever is the Slew Control. Pulling the lever towards you slews the boom anticlockwise and away is clockwise.
On the very left end of the control plate it shows that valve I mentioned before. The lever position shown in the pic is for Fast operation. If the valve is turned so that the lever is aligned with the pipe, it is Slow.
As you can see, the instruction plate has had an extra bit riveted to the end and a hole drilled through it from the back. No idea why. I suppose it must have come off another truck, as the plate inside mine states that it is a standard F1 GS Cargo.

Something that concerns me is that someone has scratched across the First Jib and Third Jib instructions. Whether they were inoperable or someone has connected it all up wrong, I won't be able to tell until I give it a run. Before I can do that I have to get the fuel tank mounts cleaned, repainted and refitted so I can put at least one of the overhauled tanks back on.

Thanks for looking.
Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on December 30, 2016, 09:31:51 AM

Thanks for looking.
Greg.

Thank you for posting!  :D

Easily one of the most enjoyable restorations, of all of the forums I look at on the net!

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on December 30, 2016, 10:50:05 AM
I hope the crane isnt full of polyurethane piston and rod seals.These turn into crumbly mush with time,and all need replacing with new made[not nos]seals.You often find that a leaky valve bank is caused by a ring of corrosion around the valve spool in the rest position ,and this needs a hardchrome and hone job.At least the Abbey used standard commercial bits,unlike Hiab where everything is odd,and only replaceable with genuine.Be careful with the valve bank,and preferably only pull one spool at a time.Dont get shims and springs mixed up between spools.On all these old cranes the lifting capacity can be increased a lot by shimming up relief valves.Still,without pullout outriggers,be careful not to bend the truck chassis.Ive tipped a few of the early Hiabs up,it happens suddenly with the short outriggers,you get no warning.I remember when we bought a truck at the sales,the Hiab 950 on the Volvo would lift a 6x6 acco onto the dog trailer in one go.Always impressed the army guys hanging round looking for a job for their 8ton forklift.They used to charge $25 a lift,which went a long way at army wet canteen prices.A can was 10c as I remember.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 01, 2017, 06:35:19 PM
I had a bit of a poke around in all the pipes on the crane and found that the long rod with the knobs on the ends is definitely the divert valve to send pressure to the outrigger legs. There is a long spring attached to it that pulls it back into the closed position. To drop or raise a leg, you would have to pull/push the rod, (depending on what side you were on), then twist the lever on the top of the leg to raise or lower it.
It's hard to tell if any of the connectors or fittings are leaking as the fluid leaking down from the control valves is covering everything.

Today I got the brake shoes and springs refitted to the intermediate axle and then got the bearings repacked and the hub refitted.
The axle went back in pretty easily and all the new nuts and bolts around the back of the hub got painted.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-b76dddB/0/1d5f0929/L/i-b76dddB-L.jpg)

This is a pic of the passenger side as it was this morning. The chassis rail extension out the back got cleaned back and primed to see how it came up. The paint comes off easily enough with the wire wheel on the grinder, but it takes time to get around all the nuts, rivet heads and suspension hangers. Sand blasting these areas would be faster. I offered to "dispose" of around 1.2t of lead contaminated garnet grit for the guys at work, but they needed a certificate of some sort to say they had done it properly. I'm sure I could have knocked one up in Photoshop. Oh well.
I have now cleaned and primed the rail from the back to the chassis tie-down U-bolt that you can see just next to the toolbox. If the weather is ok tomorrow, I will have a go at cleaning up the springs and other bits, like the diffs and suspension linkages. I think it might be a lot easier once I get the tray off as I can sit under the truck without being hunched up or belting my head all the time.

At the moment I am trying to work out the order of priority for the things I need to do. As an example, I want the tray off so I can get at the diffs, transfer case, power dividers, winch and prop shafts. They all need cleaning and painting, and the transfer case needs new seals. I can do those without removing it.
Before I can remove the tray, I need to get the truck to the point that I can start it and drive around the paddock. To do that, I need fuel. Both tanks are now clean, primed and painted with 2 coats of the camo green. Yesterday I cleaned the 4 tank support brackets and gave them a good coat of Ironize to neutralise any surface rust.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-MXCcn8P/0/4787da2f/M/i-MXCcn8P-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-K3c4x3H/0/c9db546d/L/i-K3c4x3H-L.jpg)

As you can see in the After pic on the right, 2 of the brackets had the back plates removed. The rust had eaten into these plates as you can see in the pic on the left. The steel was spalling badly and the inside of the channel was packed with rust chunks. I couldn't leave them like that.  I cut the welds and cleaned up the dags. The rust chunks inside were all from the back plate, The channel cleaned up nicely. The original back plates were 3.7mm thick and 100mm wide. I checked around and I can get either plain steel in 3 or 5mm, or galvanised in 5mm. Nothing in between. I think I will go with the heavier option, but can't decide on whether to get plain or galv. Galv is a lot dearer, but I only need 2m so it's not too bad. The 4 supports are going to be washed down with thinners to remove the varnish stuff left by the Ironize. It's done it's job of neutralising and converting any rust and the 2-pack Zinc-Epoxy I want to use on them needs bare metal to work properly. I will coat them in the epoxy and then cover that with primer, as the epoxy doesn't like Alkyd paints, and the Protec Camo Enamels are Alkyds. Once epoxied & primed, I can weld the new back plates on. I'll pre-paint them the same way as the supports and just grind enough away for the weld to stick to. I know the paint will burn with the heat, but it's better than not being treated at all. I don't want to have to do this again.
Before the tanks go back on, I need to refit the brake master unit. It's all painted and ready to go, but I need to clean and paint the chassis rail before I can put it back on. Too fiddly trying to work around it afterwards. I don't need brakes to move around the paddock. I'll just use the handbrake. I need to replace the brake lines that run from the master cylinder units to each axle and they are tucked up in the chassis rails and really hard to get at. It will be a lot easier with the tray off, so it can wait until then.
I also need to strip, clean, repaint and refit the driver's side intermediate axle hub, and drain the diff before refilling with new oil. I want to do that before moving the truck as I have done the passenger side and don't want nasty old dirty oil slopping across to that side as I have cleaned the axle tube out and the truck is leaning towards the driver's side.

So from all that, it looks like my first step is to clean the springs and suspension bits on the passenger's side, then prime and paint them. Then I can put those 2 wheels back on. Ah crap, another hitch. I have to wait until my new tubes arrive before I can put one of the tires back together. And I have to pull the old tube out of the one I have already changed. Should be easy enough now. That will be the third time I have changed that one. First time was a leaking valve stem that I missed. Second was when I replaced the leaky one with a spare that came with the truck, but no telling how old it is and the other 2 that were included are no good either. One split open along a crease and the other is perished and looks like crocodile skin.

Right. So clean/paint the spring and suspension, change the tube, fit a "new" secondhand PC50 tire to the second rim, refit both tires, drain the intermediate diff, pull apart/clean/overhaul/repaint/refit the driver's side intermediate hub, clean the driver's side chassis rail, repaint it, clean/epoxy/prime the fuel tank supports, weld new back plates to 2 of them, topcoat and refit them. Then I can refit the 2 fuel tanks and I can finally start the truck. Simple. Should have that done by winter.  ;D

While looking for something simple to do today, I knocked a hole in the deck to have a better look at the winch to see why the cable is so tight and why it won't wind out.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-kdmBw3m/0/5f688d2a/M/i-kdmBw3m-M.jpg)

As you can see, the thimble on the end of the cable has been sucked into the rollers on the back and spread the plates that hold the guide wheels.
I tried levering it out and got nowhere, even with a full-length crowbar. The cable is so tight under the truck that it twangs when you tap it.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Bcpz4TN/0/8c4faf99/L/i-Bcpz4TN-L.jpg)

I reckon I found the problem. I'd say the overload cutout is disconnected or has failed as there is no way that it should allow it to put that much load on the winch.
Now for the scary part. The winch actuator is in the Engaged position. In fact, the damn thing is stuck there. I took the clevis pin out of the air actuator and pushed it out of the way. Oh, it slides in and out fairly easily, which is nice. There isn't a lot of room between the steel rails that hold the deck boards, but I was able to belt the actuator arm pretty hard with a 4lb hammer and it won't move. It's a bad design. The steel bar of the actuator is round with a flat machined down one edge. It goes through the aluminium housing and has a washer and split pin on the far end. It looks like the aluminium has grown onto the washer. I had to drive the shaft out of the winch from the MK3 and it looked similar to this one. I will try giving it a good squirt with CRC and see if it frees up a bit. What worries me is that when I fist got the truck, I was able to turn the driveshaft to the winch with a big screwdriver through the yoke, and later tried running the truck in reverse with the PTO engaged and it didn't move the winch drum at all. I could see the winch brake drum turning on the far side, so the main worm-drive shaft and the chain drive unit are ok. Thinking about it, the main worm could be damaged, or the worm gear wheel could be stripped. Or the spline in the middle of the worm gear could be stripped. Or the main winch shaft could have stripped the splines down where the dog clutch engages. Or the dog clutch could be stripped. Or the 2 lugs that bolt to the cable drum that the dog clutch engages could gave sheared their bolts. This would be the best scenario. I still have the winch from the MK3 in pieces and all it's bits are in really good condition, so I can make 1 out of the 2 if it's more serious.

Under the tray, bolted to one of the cross-members, is a roller for the winch cable. I can't really see much point as it doesn't really do anything. It has a grease nipple in one end and the winch cable had slid off the end of the roller and gotten hung up above the grease nipple. This meant all the cable was piling up at one end of the spool. I guess they must have winched in the cable with very little load and it would have flapped around, getting hung up like this. The next time they winched they weren't paying attention and sucked the thimble into the rear rollers and when the load came on, the cable cut down through the layers and has been there ever since.
I tried using tyre levers to pop the cable over the grease nipple, but I couldn't move it at all. Soon fix that. I got my arm up under the back and managed to cut the cable right up near the thimble. There was a LOT of strain on it. It was just like in the movies where a rope twangs and untwists as it is cut, only this was steel and close to my hand. Luckily, it didn't get me and I have only lost about 8" of cable. I still couldn't lever the thimble out. I'll have to try undoing the bolts holding the plates and rollers together to get a bit of room. Nothing is ever simple.
I tried levering the cable out of the drum once the strain was off the rope, but there is just no room to manoeuvre until the tray is off or the winch is out. Thinking about it, I will try to get the cable free before dropping the winch. Once I get the thimble out of the rear rollers, I can refit it to the end of the cable, but right up close to the drum, then hook it to my hand winch and try pulling it out. If I can turn the winch drive and the drum doesn't turn, then there should only be a bit of friction holding the drum and it should be possible to pull the cable out. Hopefully.

Oh well, that's enough for tonight. Tomorrow should be interesting.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Lionelgee on January 02, 2017, 11:48:46 AM
G'day Greg,

I know you have gone to a lot of trouble with the angle iron brackets for your fuel tanks with painting them all up. This suggestion is a bit like closing the gate after the horse has bolted.... If you are going to use the galvanised flat do you have any local galvanisers who could have galvanised the angle for you?

Next time you are cutting wire cable under tension - if you have room you might want to get some steel saddle clamps and position them either side of the area you are cutting. Or perhaps a series meaty cable ties side by side and clamping the diameter of the wire - or even a series of rounds of tie wire.  It might save some skin.

This is one of my must see threads as you do excellent work Greg.

Kind Regards
Lionel
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on January 04, 2017, 10:49:54 PM
Its virtually impossible for one operator to use an underbody winch without wrecking the cable.I have an Acco winch in the tray of my Leyland,hydraulically driven from one spool of the crane valve.I have only one layer of cable on the winch,about 40ft.Even so,it wants to overlay as it winds on,and I need a small sledgehammer to keep the rope coiling evenly .The Acco ignition cutout works at about 9ton linepull,and that is enough to seriously damage everything in contact with the winchcable.The Mk3 winch had a shearpin ,which was pathetic,and generally replaced with a HT bolt to get more pull.If you have a solid tree in the yard,you should be able to uncoil the wire,using the pull of the truck and unwinding the winch under power at the same time.The old Blitz winch was a lot trickier,if you released the clutch with load on the wire,it would spin the lining from the clutch.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 08, 2017, 02:23:49 PM
Hi all.
Got some more done this morning.

Lionel, I never even thought of getting them re-galvanised. I think there is a place in Launceston that could do them. I'll give them a call tomorrow and ask.
Great idea about the cable clamps. If I had of thought it out a bit more, I could even have put a couple of heavy hose clamps on it and cut through the gap between them. It never even occurred to me, and yet I was fully expecting bits to spring out. I was lucky this time.

John, I think the ignition cutout may be faulty or disconnected. If it had been working, I can't see how they could have managed to get enough strain on the rope to pull the thimble through the rear rollers like they have.
I sprayed some CRC on the bolts holding the roller plates together and will see if I can undo them later this afternoon when its a bit cooler. There are no trees in my yard and the line of old eucs along the neighbours fence are all dieing and are very likely to fall over if I pull on them. I'll get under it later and try turning the winch drive shaft again and see if the drum turns. If I can get the drum rotated 180°, the cable pinch point will point almost straight down. I can poke the free end up through the deck and hook it to my hand winch and setup a tripod on the deck to winch off. This should allow me to pull the cable out of the pinch without having to rotate the drum at the same time.

I decided today that I will concentrate of doing the jobs necessary to get the truck registrable. It's hard. I start doing something and find other jobs that need to be done. As an example, today I decided that I want to get the passenger's side rear wheels back on. Looking at that area, I saw that the spring pack looks pretty bad, with the paint all flaking and orange rust wash all over the place. It looks bad and might draw attention to that area in an inspection, so I needed to clean it and repaint.
I started cleaning the spring leaves and found old caked grease on the bolt heads on the cover cap for the cross-shaft bearing. I clean the grease off and find that the cap is pretty rusty. I can't get at it properly to clean it right back, so I take it off. This is what I found inside.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-gmBq7mK/0/6b124376/M/i-gmBq7mK-M.jpg)

There's no sign of water or anything bad, but the grease is very old and has dried out. There is nowhere near enough in there.
I would really like to do this properly by dismantling the whole thing, cleaning it out, checking the bearing, repacking it all and repainting it. I just can't. If I start doing this, I will never get it ready for a roadworthy.
What I did was scrape off all the old dried grease, clean out the cap with turps and repack it with new grease. I refitted the cap and primed it.
Once it is registered and I have access to a shed that I can work in, I will go back and do the job properly. I will pull out the spring packs, dismantle them, clean each leaf and repaint them. Same with all the rest of the suspension bits. And the truck in general.

I cleaned up the spring pack, top, front and bottom, and primed everything I could get at.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-TmLbwFf/0/ce0baca7/M/i-TmLbwFf-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Qwspt9p/0/8abb9899/M/i-Qwspt9p-M.jpg)

In the first pic, I had already started cleaning it up. It looks pretty good once primed. The back of the spring pack is still rough and rusty. I just can't get at it. Once the tray comes off I will be able to do it properly.
I figure if it looks clean and has fresh paint, it may not catch the inspector's eye.
The power dividers and drive shafts are going to be a real pain. They are rusty, greasy and have lots of flaking paint. A big part of the problem is that the seals on the power dividers and the winch chain box are the old leather type and don't seal well when left to dry out due to long periods of inactivity. For now, I will pull each driveshaft out and clean them up, repaint them and replace any worn uni joints. The power dividers will get a good degrease, a rough wire brushing and be primed/painted. I'll replace the seals with the units still in the truck, but one day I want to pull them apart and do it properly.

My new tubes arrived during the week and I can now mount one of my "new" secondhand tires. Then I have to put a new tube in the first tire that I did. I'll start this later today. I'll paint the spring, suspension and chassis rail later today with Protec OD and that will be that area finished for now.
Its good to actually see bits going back on.

Greg.

Edit -

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-28HLzhW/0/ffd93895/M/i-28HLzhW-M.jpg)

And painted.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Philthy on January 08, 2017, 04:57:43 PM
Looking good Greg!

Cant speak from experience but would a good soak with oil on that winch cable help?

Good luck with it all.

Phil
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 08, 2017, 06:37:04 PM
Hi Phil.
It won't make any difference to getting the cable free from the winch drum as it is actually pinched under other layers of cable. From what I can see, the cable got hooked around the end of a roller under the tray that was supposed to help it lay out flat on the drum on winching.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-5zG7rjp/0/9023b616/M/i-5zG7rjp-M.jpg)

This caused all the cable to build up in a heap at one end. When someone stuffed up and winched the thimble into the fairlead rollers, spreading the plates and jamming the cable thimble between the pulleys, it caused the wire rope to cut into the mounded up layers. These layers have slid over the top and pulled up really tight as the winch kept turning.
In the pic you can see a rusty section of cable. No idea what caused that, but it looks like it is the only rusted section on the whole winch rope. The rusty section is only about a foot long.

Once it is freed up and I get the winch operational, I will run the whole length out, coat it in cable lube, wipe off the excess and winch it back in properly. The cable has a hemp core that should soak it up and keep it lubed for ages.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-XNMmRMC/0/82494e06/M/i-XNMmRMC-M.jpg)

Ok, cancel that.
I just went out and took the pics in this reply, and I found that my cable is different. It looks like the hemp cored cables were on the earlier trucks.
The newer F1 RPS that I have says it is actually "Rope, wire, steel, galvanised, 6x25 IWRC type, 16mm, 16.4tonne breaking strain".
Looking at it closely, it has 5 bundles of wires, with 25 strands in each wire. When I zoom right in, I can see that there are 19 large strands and 6 smaller ones making up each bundle. These spiral one direction, while the bundle in the centre, where the hemp normally goes, spirals the opposite direction. Searched the net and found this is Right Hand, Ordinary Lay, with Wire Core.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-LDCpHHB/0/c90cfe5f/L/i-LDCpHHB-L.jpg)

There is no sign of it ever having been lubed.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Lionelgee on January 08, 2017, 09:31:43 PM
G'day Greg,

With the cable biting into layers underneath it is there enough room to get a length of heavy gauge fencing wire on one turn of the cable either that is clamping the loose end of the cable down? If so you might be able to hook up the fencing wire and use a set of chain style fencing wire strainers with one end anchored off the chassis rail. The strain on the fencing wire could break the tension that is holding the part of the cable you are trying to clear. Any lateral movement of the bound up cable should eventually make things a little looser.  Or you could attach the wire one side of a bight of obstructed cable and use the stain to pull the cut end of the cable through the restricted area. Once you get one obstruction cleared each binding should get just a little bit more loose.

Those chain style fencing wire strainers are pretty handy items and have got me out of trouble a couple of times. Not just while I have been using them for the job they were designed for - strain fencing wire either.

Kind Regards
Lionel

Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 15, 2017, 06:27:57 PM
Thanks for that, that's probably going to be the best method once I lift the tray off. There's just not enough room under there at the moment. Removing the driveshaft will also give me room to lever things around.

I got a bit done over the weekend. I adjusted the brakes on the passenger side rear and was able to refit the 2 wheels I have cleaned, repainted and reassembled with new tubes and some Dunlop PC50 tires. They are a bit rough, but not perished, like the ones that came off, And I think they should pass a roadworthy. I only have 2 that are in really good condition, probably about 90%, so they will go on the front.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-MfKttq5/0/07f13b53/M/i-MfKttq5-M.jpg)

It looks pretty good. Much better than it was before.

After that, I removed the handbrake rods and pivots to give them a clean and repaint. The pivot that clamps to the axle cross shaft was seized but cleaned up well.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-ZFWqmdS/0/8e1b05ff/M/i-ZFWqmdS-M.jpg)

I have to find or make a few clevis pins. The ones that went through the pivot are really badly pitted. The local place where I get all my bolts and bits didn't have anything, so I may have to make a few. Should be easy enough. I'll get a few bolts with long shanks, cut them to length and drill them for the split pins. Having the hex head should make them a lot easier to get out next time. I could also get a bolt with a smooth shank, screw on a nylock nut and then drill it for a split pin. Doubly safe.
I haven't refitted the handbrake bits yet as I need to clean and repaint the axle cross shaft that it clamps to, as well as the 2 rear axle housings.
I jacked up the back driver's side axle and took the wheel off. I'll clean and repaint the rim and fit another PC50 tire to it.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Hz6CGTW/0/422c3e64/M/i-Hz6CGTW-M.jpg)

As you can see, the spring pack is really rusty. The other side was the same. The wheel is down at the house on my de-tyreing stump. If anyone ever wants to know, the wheels weigh 110kg.
During the week, I will get the tyre off and maybe clean and paint the axle and cross shaft. I can't start cleaning the rim until I get new filters for my mask. I noticed that they were clogged last time I used it and it was getting hard to suck air through them. The last rim was really bad though. It was the galvanised one off the MK3 and it had a really thick layer of white corrosion on all the exposed surfaces. I think whatever chemicals that had been carried on the truck and had leaked through the deck had reacted with the galvanising on the rims. Whatever it was, it burnt my skin where it settled and mixed with sweat. Glad I had my mask and glasses on.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Acco 4x4 on January 15, 2017, 09:25:56 PM
Hi Greg, As always we all love your work! Always exciting to see another update and to envy your efforts!Just out of curiosity, does the park brake mechanism brake the front ( of the rear pair) only or is it equalised between both rear axles? Just wondering how good the handbrakes actually are when in good working condition....
Keep up the good work!!
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 16, 2017, 08:22:02 AM
The handbrake only works on the rear axle. This axle has the same "puller" type brake units as the MK3 & 4.
The intermediate axle has the same "pusher" type brakes as the front and they work the same as your normal slave cylinders on drum braked vehicles.
The "puller" type work the opposite way. The piston pulls in, towards the centreline of the vehicle. It pulls a wedge-shaped plug that spreads the expanders in the brake unit. The handbrake rods pull on the same wedge, so in theory you should get the same braking effect as putting the brakes on normally.
With the way the rear axle group is permanently connected with a driveshaft and splitter boxes, if both rear axle brakes are correctly adjusted and the handbrake rods are also set to pull evenly, then braking the rear-most set of wheels should also brake the intermediate set.
Saying that though, if either of the rear-most wheels are allowed to turn, then there won't be any effect on the intermediate axle.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on January 17, 2017, 09:26:47 PM
4x4,normal commercial Inters of that period had tailshaft drum handbrakes.They either grabbed and made the truck buck like a demented billygoat,or more usually,had oil on the linings,and couldnt even pass the parking test on the test hill at the old Dutton Park Inspection station.Only the big US sourced Inters like the Trans stars,and the BCF Loadstars had air brakes,and could actually stop.The whole axle setup on the 4x4 accos was lifted from the British army RL Bedfords.And the handbrake was one million percent better than anything fitted to an Inter of that time.When the pedal went to the floor on an AB180 on a hill,pulling on the handbrake was a waste of time when you needed to be going down thru the gears and looking for an escape route.Fortunately the old Inters were that slow there wernt any cars in front of you.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Richard Farrant on January 21, 2017, 07:04:04 AM
The whole axle setup on the 4x4 accos was lifted from the British army RL Bedfords.

Hi John,
I am interested to know, how identical these front axles were to a Bedford RL, were they licence built ie exact copy, or just similar? Reason I as is that a friend of mine in Australia with a Bedford 4x4, asked me to get him a pair of swivel seals (the large ones that seal on the spherical axle ends). I was at the Corowa swap meet and picked up a bag of seals with an unfamiliar part number on it, but although I thought they were Bedford, I asked the seller who said International. I was not going to take a chance to buy them in case they were different. Your comment makes me thing they are possibly the same.
I sent some genuine Bedford ones out later after finding some, but if they are identical  it would be useful to know.

cheers
Richard 
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 21, 2017, 07:16:54 PM
There are at least 2 different seals for the Inter swivel housings. They both fit, but one was made by Dana Australia. The other was made for the Australian Department of Defence and will probably have TSE (V) 102-10 as a part number.

From what I can tell, they are getting hard to find these days, so don't toss them.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on January 22, 2017, 12:02:34 AM
I believe the entire outer ends of the front axles of the mk 1,2,3 front axles were made by by AWD Ltd .Who also made outer ends for not only Bedfords,but also the various Leyland  and Albion front drives.The same,who knows?As for the seals being rare,i must have buried a million of them to get rid of them,and still have half a container full left.Its not the seals that are rare,but the bronze back up springs,which are a semicircle of thin bronze with multiple fingers slotted into them.If you let the outer end swing without the tierod,the fingers will get busted.I remember years ago they put up the injection mould for the seals,and got a fortune for it,something like $10,000,because the seals were thought to be run out of stock,then they sold tons of the new made seals.Which made the mould worthless,practically.Unfortunately,other people have memories of the old days,but I have container fulls of the dam stuff to get rid of.On top of which ,some idiot has complained the containers on my industrial land,and now theyve got to go too.Whats the use of industrial land,if you cant have containers on it.I reckon Im just too old.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Richard Farrant on January 22, 2017, 04:06:32 AM
Hi John,
It may interest you to know that the Bedford 4x4 swivel seal and copper back up springs were used from 1941 on the QL, right through the RL models to the MK/MJ types that carried on after the demise of  Bedford trucks to the AWD and Marshalls built versions. Same part numbers. I am not sure about your comment on Bedford outer ends being made by AWD Ltd. I think Vauxhall Motors Ltd (Bedford) produced these parts themselves.
I worked for many years on QL, RL and MK/MJ and pretty familiar with their inner workings  ;)
Still would like to know if these seals are identical to the Inters.

cheers Richard
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on January 22, 2017, 10:25:43 PM
I havent owned a Bedford[of any kind]in forty years.The last thing I remember about the RLHC was a friend bought mine to convert to a mobile home.It did in his back ,and his guts have never been the same,or so he says.I do remember replacing roller bearings in the gearbox and transfer with bronze bushes.The funny thing about Bedfords,the only motor that was any good was the 300 petrol,and the only gearbox that was any good was the little four speed.I remember a funny story about Bedfords.A guys wife undid the nut holding the steering wheel on his truck.He crashed ,and spent six months in hospital.When he got home,his wife had bought another Bedford with the insurance.He took it for a test run,and the steering wheel came off in his hands,and he crashed again.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on February 26, 2017, 03:37:43 PM
Ok time for an update.

I have been working on the fuel tank support brackets. You may remember how bad they were.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-hkNBJ7v/0/9e6aed75/M/i-hkNBJ7v-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-MXCcn8P/0/4787da2f/M/i-MXCcn8P-M.jpg)

I removed the 1/8" rusted plate off the back of the 2 worst ones and gave them all a good wire brushing, followed by a dose of Ironise to convert any remaining rust to an inert form.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-K3c4x3H/0/c9db546d/L/i-K3c4x3H-L.jpg)

Once that had finished working, I cleaned the black lacquer off with thinners and coated them with a 2 pack zinc epoxy that is used on bridges and underwater structures and pylons.
I took the 2 that I had removed the back plates from into work and made new plates from 100x5mm steel plate that had been zinc epoxied and primed. I drilled the holes in the tops, put bolts through them to clamp them to the supports and worked them around the curve, clamping it as I went with vice grips and g-clamps. Once wrapped around the curves, I was able to mark and drill the rest of the holes.
The 100mm steel plate was about 10mm narrower than the supports, so this was a perfect size to run a good strong weld bead. I cleaned the paint off the narrow strip and started welding. I found it easiest to clamp a section and weld about an inch to hold it, then move the clamps a bit and weld another inch. By doing this in stages, both sides, I was able to keep it straight, with no twisting, for a really neat job.
I ground the weld down flush, on roughly a 45 degree angle, just for looks. When they originally bent the front part of the support, the metal pulled in in the belly of the curve, and it was only 100mm wide, the same as the new back plate. Along this section, I built the weld up and ground it into a rounded shape.
I cleaned up the areas of paint that were burnt by the welding and touched up the paint. Today I gave them their first topcoat of olive drab. They will get one more coat and get bolted back on.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-7tsKQ2q/0/b3c7a27d/M/i-7tsKQ2q-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-MSgCrKq/0/c4c3d18d/M/i-MSgCrKq-M.jpg)

Seeing them next to the 2 supports that didn't get their backs replaced makes me want to do them too. Maybe next time. The repaired ones weigh a fair bit more, but I bet they are way stronger.

Since the last update, I have cleaned back the driver's side chassis rail and primed and painted it. I have to make a few new U-bolts to hold the tray on as some of them were badly bent and had the threads damaged. I had to split the nuts on a few to get them off.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-SSL6svf/0/81301295/M/i-SSL6svf-M.jpg)

Still have to clean up the spring pack and suspension. Also need to rebuilt that middle hub. I drained the oil during the week and it was dirty, but had no signs of water in it, unlike the back one.

Should be posting more often, now that I have those brackets done.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dkg001 on February 26, 2017, 04:15:31 PM
Very nice job with those brackets.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on February 27, 2017, 09:19:21 AM
Really nice job and nice to have you posting again!  :D

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on April 09, 2017, 02:48:50 PM
Hi all.
Ignore all the "new post" messages you received if you have subscribed to this thread. I just went through and edited all of the picture links to change them from Photobucket to Google Photo links. Tired of the advertising pop-ups, lag and constant site outages of the Photobucket site. I still have to do the MK3 thread and go hunt down any other links I have posted in other threads, but that can wait.

Last weekend I cut some 6mm insertion rubber strips to go between the fuel tanks and the support brackets. I glued them down with lots of contact cement. I used strips of 3mm insertion rubber under the hold-down straps.
While bending the new 40x3mm steel strip to wrap around the contour of the tank, I noticed some small bumps in the paint where I had used the Permanent Tank Sealant to fill the rust holes. I gave one a poke and it popped out. There was rust under it. I gave it a hit with the wire wheel on the grinder and every single piece of tank bog had rust under it. Not happy.
I stripped the entire tank back to bare metal and cleaned it down with thinners to remove any primer that was left.

I took it into work and had the 2 guys with welding experience have a look. One said to just Mig it up and grind it back flush. He wouldn't help me do it though. I have very little welding experience and tend to blow holes in thin metal.
The other guy said he though brazing would be better. Less damage to the tinning on the inner and outer surfaces, as well as less distortion of the metal as the Oxy/LPG gear I have isn't as hot as a Mig and should spread the heat over a larger area. I used to be pretty good at brazing, but that was back in High School, and around 30 years ago.
I went down to the engineering supplies place to get some brazing filler rods and the young guys had no idea what I was talking about. One tried selling me Tig rods for stainless and the other kept insisting that Silver Brazing rods were what I wanted as it had "brazing" in the name.
I went to another shop and an older guy served me. He knew what I was talking about and dimly recalled seeing some rods out the back. He eventually found them, covered in dust, then couldn't find them in the system as they had been sitting on a ledge above a door sill out the back and had never been spotted in a stocktake since the shop went to computerised stock tracking. We worked out a price and I found a bottle of the correct flux, now I just need it to stop raining so I can get started.

The tank has no petrol smell at all. It was the rear tank and I don't think they had put fuel in it in ages as it had a pin-hole leak on the bottom, where the strap and felting sat. I still washed it out with a water-based degreaser, then a detergent and water mix, followed by flushing with water until there were no bubbles.
When I braze it up, I'll drop a magnet on a wire down through the fuel level float hole and cover the pin-hole in the bottom. I'll fill it with water to minimise the chance of any vapour flashing off as I work. When I do the bottom, I will refit the fuel level float and the dipstick, then cap the fuel pickup pipe. With the tank upside down, I can fill it up through the drain bung. Should work. While it's unpainted, I'll have a go at getting some of the dents out.
If this works, I think I might do the same to the other tank. I really don't like the way they welded the cover strip over the rust holes. I can just picture rust forming under there. If I do it right now, I won't ever have those doubts in the back of my mind that it might spring a leak at some point. It also has a few deep rust pits in the bottom that I bogged up with the "Permanent Fuel Tank Sealant"

Since my last post, I pulled the driver's side intermediate hub apart and have been giving it a good clean and repaint. With the dry weather we have been having, it's been hectic at work and I haven't had much time to get much done. I only get one day each weekend to do any real work as I try to spend a day up at mum's to cut wood and fix things so she gets through winter comfortably. We have enough stove wood cut now, but need to get a lot of bigger wood cut for the heater. Have also been working on upgrading the solar setup so she has power for lights and stuff and looking at running a mini-hydro setup to help out when there are a lot of overcast days with little power going in. That will be next spring though, I think. I need about 450m of 5" aluminium irrigation pipe. :)

Good news though: After getting nowhere trying to find someone who was cutting 6"x1" Tas Bluegum to replace the truck deck, I found a place in Launceston that actually imports Spotted Gum, (Corymbia maculata), from the mainland and in the sizes I need. Spotted Gum is actually harder and a lot more durable than our Tas Bluegum, so that's even better. I don't have a price yet, but it's on my list of things to do when I can't work on things more important. Long list.

A while back, I posted about finding a place in the UK that do repro parts for Girling, Lockheed and Lucas brakes/electrics/hydraulics, as I needed new rubber boots for my handbrake linkages on the rear axle. I couldn't post a pic then as Photobucket was being weird, so here's one now.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-TDcr4Q9/0/c809c275/M/i-TDcr4Q9-M.jpg)

Will post more if the rain stops and I actually get something done.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on April 09, 2017, 08:19:27 PM
Ive brazed lots of fuel tanks,just fill with water and position so only the braze area is out of the water.You get little "boomps" but nothing damaging.One point is to test a small spot first,I have struck some fuel tank steel that goes into many fine cracks as the braze cools.The other problem you will find is that braze isnt leakproof due to small bits of flux,and will often develop pinhole leaks months afterwards as the flux powders.You can also get coated brazing rods,I thing Comcoat T is right for steel.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on April 14, 2017, 01:34:31 PM
Thanks for that John.

I got into it early this morning and used a liquid soldering flux to clean out all the pits before wiping them clean with a rag soaked in turps. They came up shiny silver.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-9579CpS/0/a4ab8153/L/i-9579CpS-L.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-c8VnD33/0/c69cff8c/L/i-c8VnD33-L.jpg)

Just realised that the pics above were taken just before I cleaned the holes out. Oh well.

I first tried brazing with a size 5 tip but it was too hot and also too strong. It melted the metal of the tank and blew the bronze filler away. I had to go down to a size 3, which was a lot easier to work with.
This is with oxy/LPG, so the tip sizes might be different to what is used with acetylene.
I haven't done any brazing in 30 years and it took a bit to get it flowing properly. Once I got used to fluxing the rod and drawing the bronze to where you wanted it instead of trying to push it with the flame, it all went well. Its a real balancing trick, trying to keep the area and pool of bronze molten while reaching across and dipping the rod into the flux and then back into the pool.
Once I got the hang of it, I went over all of the deep pits and the holes and then gave them a touch up with the grinder and the flappy wheel thing. This removed all of the flux and showed me a few spots that I had missed. I touched them up and then drained the tank and flipped it over and did the ones on the bottom. No actual holes here, just deep pits.
These ones were easier as I had the hang of it now.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-72fq364/0/8f10c938/L/i-72fq364-L.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-K9z5rBt/0/83af63c8/L/i-K9z5rBt-L.jpg)

The After pics didn't come out as clear as I would have liked. Oh well.
I gave the whole tank a good going over with the wire wheel and wiped it down with thinners before sitting it in the sun to dry while I mixed up some Zinc Epoxy 2 pack primer. When I came back to it I was worried as there was smoke coming out of the hole for the fuel gauge float. After running to turn the hose back on, I realised it was just vapour from the water on the inside heating up in the sun and evaporating.
I coated it in the 2 pack Zinc Epoxy and it's happily curing out in the sun.
Later this afternoon I will get stuck in and get more done on the hub parts. I have all next week off, so hope to get lots done.

Every time I think I'll get a good uninterrupted run at it, something happens. Last time it was my Discovery. First the alternator had to be replaced after a tiny coolant leak dribbled water into the back of it, killing the bearing. Once I replaced that, I could hear another squealing noise. Turns out it was the bearing in the air con belt tensioner. I replaced that and the one in the fixed one below it. Coming out of work last night, while shutting the gate I could hear something else. Sort of an intermittent chatter. Turns out it is the bearing in the auto tensioner on the main serpentine belt. Its just a basic 6203 bearing, but there is only one place in town that has them and will be open tomorrow. Its getting to the stage now where I hesitate to plan any long trips as I wonder what is next.

I'll post up some pics when I get the hub and brakes cleaned up.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on April 15, 2017, 08:05:12 PM
Some kind of greasy stuff must come thru the flame.Ive long noticed that braze wont stick to steel in the flame no matter how hot,but  take the flame away or shield the spot and the braze instantly flashes over it.I know from repairing LPG forklifts that there is some pretty sticky goo left by the gas,as well as the foul smelling odorant.I like the counter jockey trying to give you silver solder.I know a guy who got a bundle on account,nearly fainted when he saw the price.Its about $40 per ounce.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on April 17, 2017, 08:19:01 AM

This is with oxy/LPG, so the tip sizes might be different to what is used with acetylene.

I haven't done any brazing in 30 years and it took a bit to get it flowing properly.
Greg.

LPG is the most useless fuel-gas for welding that I have ever tried! It is good for cutting and that is the only thing it is good at.

30 years ago, I bet you were using acetylene at school? You are dead right; with an acetylene flame you can push the bronze where you want it to go.

For some reason your pictures don't show for me and I can't open them. Does anyone else have the same problem?

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on April 17, 2017, 01:08:58 PM
I am so over this damn image hosting rubbish.
Turns out that the links I used from Google Photos can change after a period of time and won't link to the actual picture. All pics showed for me, until I used another PC that had never logged into my Google account. All it showed were little boxes.
Should be fixed for now.

I'm cleaning and painting hubs and brake bits, so will be back a bit later to post more and look for a better photo hosting site.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on April 18, 2017, 08:51:41 PM
Acetylene is nice,but its also costly.When I was working ,they allways had two big acetylenes on hand,every weekend the favoured ones were allowed to use the workshop,every Monday my first job was to pick up two big acetylenes and two big oxys. from the gas depot.The dipsticks would never remember to turn off the valves.I personally havent had acetylene since 1970.Made do with lpg,the only thing its no good for is welding.A 9kg bottle will last 5 Esize oxys.And no cyl rental.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on April 18, 2017, 10:33:52 PM
Local place down here now sells a lot of the inert gasses. You buy the cylinder full of Argon, Argoshield, Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide and "own" the cylinder. As an example, I bought an "E" size Argoshield and an Oxygen for around $420 each. When they are empty, I take it back and pay $120 or so and get a full one. No rental or time limit. They also have the bigger cylinders.
Renting an "E" size cylinder from BoC is around $200 a year, plus your gas. Mine will be paid for in 2 years. Worth it for me.
I was told we would also be able to get the Acetylene eventually. They have issues as it requires a different class of transport or something.

Acetylene used to be a lot easier to judge to get the flame right. Turn on the gas, light and adjust until the little black soot things disappear, then open up the oxy until you get a nice clean tight cone.
LPG is a lot harder. Different colour flame and cheap regulators that were designed for much higher output pressures. The first mark on both reg gauges is 200. I wanted 50 for LPG so had to guestimate.
Just need practice, I suppose.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on April 19, 2017, 04:35:11 PM
I had some free time today and got a bit more done.
(I'm giving Photobucket another try, so let me know if you can't see 4 pics in this post).

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-SSL6svf/0/81301295/M/i-SSL6svf-M.jpg)

As you can see in this older pic, the spring pack and suspension bits are pretty rusty on this side. I had a go with the grinder, but it's really hard to get into all the corners of the castings and the grooves between the spring leaves.
The only way to do it properly would be to jack up the chassis rails and pull the axle assemblies out, then dismantle the whole thing, clean, prime and paint it all, then put it all back together.
At the moment, being out in the open paddock, I just can't do that. All my life, I have been surrounded by relations and other people who feel that rough enough is good enough, and I really hate that now I have to do the same.
For now, I have painted the spring pack and the more heavily rusted sections with Ironize, to stabilise them. I will prime and paint them tomorrow, but at some point in the future it is going to get fully stripped and restored.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-qpKbzXH/0/b07c27b7/M/i-qpKbzXH-M.jpg)

It actually looks pretty good, but I know that the back, bottom and in all the cracks and gaps, there is rusted bits that I haven't done.
I intend to get it to a state that I can start it and drive it around the paddock so I can lift the tray off. With that off, I can get at the full driveline and also into the chassis rails.
The driveline has a lot of caked on grease that I just can't get at from the side and also a lot of the paint has flaked off and let rust get a hold. The chassis rails have loads of dirt packed in around the air, fuel and brake lines.
With the tray off, I can pressure wash it all out and see what sections of pipe I have to replace. Also, with the tray off, I can unbolt and lower the winch from above and see why it won't turn.
I could use the Abbey hoist to do that, but I know it leaks badly and I don't want to force hydraulic fluid through it until I can strip and rebuild the control valve assembly. A simple A-frame and my hand winch should do the job there. It's also something I can do over winter.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-z64H3zc/0/8d61be14/M/i-z64H3zc-M.jpg)

I started putting the last rear hub back together today. Tomorrow I will get the bearings repacked and the seal fitted. With that done, I can put it all back together. The brake expanders are all done and ready to go back on.
I should get the hub almost finished tomorrow. When mowing around the truck this morning, I found the 2 dust cover plates from the back of the hub hiding in the grass.
Luckily, no real damage occurred. I have to clean, prime and paint them. With that done, I can see if I can get it started. I decided that I will leave the fuel tanks off for now, as they block access to the side of the transfer case and gearbox/hydraulic pump.
I need to be able to get at them to scrape off the caked on grease and mud. I have a new boat fuel tank that I will use for now. I have refitted the forward tank support brackets, so I will bolt a section of ply across them and sit the boat fuel tank there.
If I put it on the floor on the passenger side, it siphons the fuel out. I found this out on the MK3. I know the carbies are about level with the bottom of the steering wheel, so that has to be higher than the tank if it was on the floor, so I may have had a leak in the fuel pump on the MK3.
It didn't go into the engine, so must have leaked out onto the ground. The grass was already dead under the truck, from all the degreaser and stuff that I used, so I never noticed.
Still, if I put the tank down on the actual tank supports, it's lower than the fuel pump, so if this one is also faulty, all that can happen is that the fuel will drain back to the tank. Sounds good in theory.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-PQGJGgf/0/1341bbe2/M/i-PQGJGgf-M.jpg)

Finally, here's a pic of a load of repainted stuff, ready to go back on. Looking at that, I just realised I have to put a new tire on that wheel. That's actually more strenuous than getting the old one off.
Oh. That will only be 3. That means I have another complete wheel out in the paddock somewhere that I have to de-tire, clean, prime, paint and remount. Great.

Still, it feels good to see bits going back on for a change.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on April 20, 2017, 08:23:27 AM
Oh I do enjoy your posts!  :D

It is nice to read of a fellow rust-buster, doing his best to get rid of it.

When you strip the springs, it helps immensely if you lubricate between the leaves and radius the top of the end of each leaf, so that it doesn't cut into the one above it. I know that some people will say that because it is a truck, it doesn't need this treatment, but they don't understand how a leaf spring-pack is supposed to work.

Nice work on all of the parts, it will go together again rapidly once you have done all of the chassis work,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Acco 4x4 on April 20, 2017, 09:37:31 PM
Hi Greg, I strongly second Charlie's recommendations for your leaves. I have always given all my springs the same treatment when ever they are out. I do also recommend lubricating them but I do suggest a dry lube... I use and recommend railway "Switch Plate Spray" made by rocol. Its available from blackwoods or similar unless you know someone in the rail industry. It is a dry graphite spray, goes on wet and solidifies to a nice thick coating. Its long lasting and as its dry it doesn't attract dirt. Worth every $$$$$. 
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on April 29, 2017, 04:42:44 PM
Thanks for that. It's something I will do once it's moveable and I have somewhere covered to work.

Haven't had a chance to get any more done since last week. It rained all weekend so I used the time to do some cleaning up. I have a 6 monthly house inspection next Tuesday. I hate cleaning the house.
I did a bit after work each day and was planning on refitting a tire on my freshly painted rim and get it back on the truck, but, as usual, something else came up.
During the week I heard a noise coming from my Discovery. I recently replaced the 2 bearings in the aircon drive belt tensioner and idler pulleys as one was failing and squeaking. I tracked this noise back to the tensioner pulley for the main serpentine belt. I suppose I should have done them all at the same time, but it wasn't making any noise then.
I got the new bearing, $7, and went to fit it last night. It's a simple job. When I went to put it back in, I bumped the water pump pulley and noticed that it moved. I gave it a spin and the bearing was stuffed. There was a lot of slop in the shaft, but it wasn't leaking.
I only changed the damn thing 3 months back because the old one, genuine Land Rover part, started leaking. The one I got sent was a Britpart. I'd heard stories about all things Britpart, but this is the first part of theirs that I have used. Never again.
I got a replacement locally and fitted it this morning. Far more work than just doing the tensioner bearing. I had to refit the tensioner first so it held all the pulleys still, then find my special spanner for undoing the fan, left hand thread, then suck out enough coolant so it doesn't leak all over the place when I pull the water pump. Next, remove the top radiator hose, then loosen the bolts in the water pump and power steering pulleys. Remove the tensioner again, and the serpentine belt, then the 2 pulleys. After that you can undo all the bolts in the pump, pop it out, clean the face of the housing, goop up the new pump and gasket, goop all the bolts and put it all back together. Simple.
Refilled the coolant, burped it and gave it a run. No leaks and no noises. For now.

Anyway, the main reason for this post is that I found something new about my truck. I went out this morning and removed all the info plates, as Mike_K is going to do a run for the Inter plates and I thought I might have some that he hasn't got.
After I took them all off and took their pics, I noticed something odd on the back of the plate that has the chassis number on it.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-NDjjSPt/0/cac02fbf/M/i-NDjjSPt-M.jpg)  (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-dZRPMqr/0/94e2cddd/M/i-dZRPMqr-M.jpg)

As you can see, the front shows it as 6X6 3588. On the back it is stamped as 6X6 2991. Is it a mis-stamp? It's perfectly lined up with where it would be if it were the proper black plate.
You may also see that someone has scratched 3588 on the back with a nail or something.
Even more interesting, I saw numbers had been stamped into the plate from the front, but not through the black layer. Larger font. One corner of the thin black front layer was peeling, so I helped it a bit and found that the front layer is thin aluminium and it's stuck to a thicker plain silver piece of aluminium. Someone had stamped 3388 in it. I'm guessing they stuffed up and meant to stamp 3588.
So what do you all think about this? Did my truck used to have a different chassis? Did they just stuff up the plate when they were stamping them out at the factory?
I looked up the truck with chassis 2991, but it is pretty much the same as mine.
It was 174-980, Truck, Cargo, 5 Ton, GS, With Winch, engine 6.283.12050.
Mine is 180-971, Truck, Cargo, 5 Ton, GS, With Winch, supposedly from 1972, but this plate says differently. Engine was 6.283.12376 but is actually 6.283.05317, which was from 172-624, Truck, Dump, 5 Ton, GS, With Winch, so an F2 from 1968 with chassis number 2321.
None of these records mention it has an Abbey crane fitted.

I had a look at all the other plates, but the only one with anything interesting was the one behind the seat that has Winch Clutch - Engage (travelling position) - Disengage. On the back is a paper sticker with 9905 66 031 0571 Qty 1. Pretty neat.

Back to cleaning.
Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Bundy on May 10, 2017, 11:45:19 PM
I believe the entire outer ends of the front axles of the mk 1,2,3 front axles were made by by AWD Ltd .Who also made outer ends for not only Bedfords,but also the various Leyland  and Albion front drives.The same,who knows?As for the seals being rare,i must have buried a million of them to get rid of them,and still have half a container full left.Its not the seals that are rare,but the bronze back up springs,which are a semicircle of thin bronze with multiple fingers slotted into them.If you let the outer end swing without the tierod,the fingers will get busted.I remember years ago they put up the injection mould for the seals,and got a fortune for it,something like $10,000,because the seals were thought to be run out of stock,then they sold tons of the new made seals.Which made the mould worthless,practically.Unfortunately,other people have memories of the old days,but I have container fulls of the dam stuff to get rid of.On top of which ,some idiot has complained the containers on my industrial land,and now theyve got to go too.Whats the use of industrial land,if you cant have containers on it.I reckon Im just too old.Regards John.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on June 10, 2017, 04:38:42 PM
Hi all.
I've been working on a few small but fiddly things lately, like the indicator switch and some wiring.
I pulled the switch out a while ago and had cleaned it out with contact cleaner, but had to work out what to lubricate it with.
After chasing around town, I found a tin of white dielectric grease. Except it was blue. Weird.
I smeared a bit inside the switch and put it back together. When I squeezed up the metal clips that hold the unit together, the damn circuit board snapped in half.
I rang Iveco and gave them the old part number. They looked it up and said that the part had been superceded and the new number was 132161 R91. Still available and a bargain at only $250 exGST. :o
I pulled the one out of the MK3 instead.
After cleaning and lubing this one, I put the whole steering wheel assembly back together. This took about 3 hours as I found the wire from the horn switch had been cut off or worn through at the bottom of the steering column. I joined a new length of wire to it up near the steering wheel and slid a length of plastic tubing into the hole in the bottom of the steering column to stop it wearing through again. I put a pair of hose clamps on the tubing to stop the pipe moving fed the new wire through. I tested it with the multimeter and found there was no path to earth when the horn was pressed. After pulling the horn button and guts out again, giving all the metal surfaces a bit of a sand and putting it back together again, it worked.
I reconnected the horn and found it didn't work. It had power to it and sparked when I shorted the output wire to earth, but no noise. I hooked the horn up off the MK3 and it worked. Sounds like a sick sheep, but it worked.
I pulled the horn apart and found it had been full of water at some point and the points were stuck together. I'll give it all a clean out when I get a chance and make a silicone gasket for it, instead of the thin paper one it had. That should fix it. The one off the F1 was a snail shell shape with the opening facing down. The one off the MK3 is different, with the opening on the front.

I have a fitting with a tap in the air line up near the driver's left knee. It is apparently for pressurising the diffs when deep wading. The MK3 didn't have this. I put a fitting in it so that I can connect a standard air compressor hose to it. This will let me pressurise the system from my home compressor, so I can work on things like the brake system, winch and transfer case actuators, without having to run the truck. It should also make it easy to hear air leaks in the lines.

I noticed today that the rear driver's side hub appears to be leaking diff oil around the axle flange. This is one that I already rebuilt, so not a good sign. The truck it tilted over that way a fair bit as the paddock isn't flat.
That axle flange has a new gasket and silicone on both sides, so not sure how it is leaking. Also, to leak there, it must have gotten out of the diff and past that damn axle nut seal that I couldn't replace as nobody has one.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-F4CNBH5/0/93787f9b/M/i-F4CNBH5-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-BZ5h6Lj/0/50758f50/M/i-BZ5h6Lj-M.jpg)

That thing. The only thing I can do is make up a spacer, like a large washer, to make the sealing edge press a bit harder against the flange face. Very frustrating.

Tomorrow I plan on fitting the boat fuel tank to the tank support brackets and running a flexible line to the fuel pump so I can run the truck, yet easily remove the tank to work on the brake master unit and degrease the transfer case and gearbox. I have to refit the handbrake rods and adjust them, then put a new secondhand tire on the rim I have painted and ready. Then I just need to fill the middle diff with oil, rebolt up the main driveshaft, which I dropped to make access underneath easier, and I should be able to start it and drive around the paddock.

I will post a bit more when I have a few things done and maybe some new pics.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on June 13, 2017, 04:14:05 PM
Hi Greg, I  actually have a new seal if you want one     
Let me know if you want one and send details by pm and its yours.
Cheers
Frank
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on June 15, 2017, 06:32:41 PM
Thanks for that. PM sent.
Looks like I got the wiring right for the indicators and headlights. High & low beam now work, parkers are good and both front indicators blink properly. The left & right indicator lights on the dash flash properly.
Now for the issue.
On the dash, right in the middle at the top, as you can see in the pic below, is a round green light.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-C82rVdH/0/aff84934/M/i-C82rVdH-M.jpg)

It has Trailer something, something, on a bezel around it. (forgot what it says and its dark and wet outside).
There is a wire running from it to the flasher unit, marked 462, which isn't on my MK3 electrical wiring diagram, as the MK3 doesn't have this light.
The wire connects to the Pilot terminal on the flasher unit. Another wire goes from the light to earth. I checked the bulb and it isn't blown, but the light does nothing when the indicators are flashing.
Does anyone know if it is supposed to?
I didn't have my multimeter out there to check it there was actually power going to it from the flasher, and the flasher is brand new. It is a Narva 68213BL. This is a non load sensing heavy duty unit with a Pilot light function.
One reason I thought it may not be working is there are no rear indicators at the moment. A previous owner removed the original tail lights and tried wiring in new LED units, but couldn't work out the wonderful yellow wiring system, so ran a new cable from the cab, and still got it wrong. He managed to wire up the flasher and indicator switch so that when you tried to indicate right or left, it switched the power from the flasher unit directly to earth, blowing the fuse.
I checked the original wiring and none of the indicator wires are shorting to earth, but maybe it needs the extra load of rear indicator bulbs to make the trailer light work.
Anyone able to enlighten me?  ;D

Greg
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: THE BOOGER on June 15, 2017, 07:38:13 PM
Looks like the trailer flasher from a land rover it should only flash if a trailer is connected to the truck :)


quote author=Ravvin link=topic=4370.msg50179#msg50179 date=1497515561]
Thanks for that. PM sent.
Looks like I got the wiring right for the indicators and headlights. High & low beam now work, parkers are good and both front indicators blink properly. The left & right indicator lights on the dash flash properly.
Now for the issue.
On the dash, right in the middle at the top, as you can see in the pic below, is a round green light.

(http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a521/Ravvin/Inter%20F1%20180-971/Gauges_zpssl8jkhjb.jpg)

It has Trailer something, something, on a bezel around it. (forgot what it says and its dark and wet outside).
There is a wire running from it to the flasher unit, marked 462, which isn't on my MK3 electrical wiring diagram, as the MK3 doesn't have this light.
The wire connects to the Pilot terminal on the flasher unit. Another wire goes from the light to earth. I checked the bulb and it isn't blown, but the light does nothing when the indicators are flashing.
Does anyone know if it is supposed to?
I didn't have my multimeter out there to check it there was actually power going to it from the flasher, and the flasher is brand new. It is a Narva 68213BL. This is a non load sensing heavy duty unit with a Pilot light function.
One reason I thought it may not be working is there are no rear indicators at the moment. A previous owner removed the original tail lights and tried wiring in new LED units, but couldn't work out the wonderful yellow wiring system, so ran a new cable from the cab, and still got it wrong. He managed to wire up the flasher and indicator switch so that when you tried to indicate right or left, it switched the power from the flasher unit directly to earth, blowing the fuse.
I checked the original wiring and none of the indicator wires are shorting to earth, but maybe it needs the extra load of rear indicator bulbs to make the trailer light work.
Anyone able to enlighten me?  ;D

Greg
[/quote]
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on June 15, 2017, 07:58:06 PM
Thanks for that.
Not sure how it would know if a trailer was connected though. Maybe it works off the current drawn by extra bulbs?
The flasher unit only has 3 pins; power in, switched power out to the indicator switch which sends it out to the left or right indicators and the little left/right lights on the dash, and the Pilot terminal which runs to this light.
The NATO socket at the back just has a tap on the wires to the rear left & right indicators.

Oh well, I can try doing a temp wiring job for rear indicators and hook up a couple of bulbs through the NATO socket and see what happens.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: THE BOOGER on June 15, 2017, 08:57:46 PM
Your right with the extra current draw but you also need the correct can
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on June 19, 2017, 05:24:10 PM
Thanks for that.

After the weekend, I have the handbrake rods all reconnected and adjusted correctly, new sparkplugs and leads fitted and the temporary boat fuel tank all strapped down and plumbed in.

Many of the clevis pins on the handbrake linkages and the transfer case connecting rods were very badly rusted and worn. I tried finding replacements online and got nowhere.
I no longer have access to a lathe, or I would have just turned up new ones. There is a good chance that one of the guys at work is buying a lathe, so I might get a chance to have a play sometime in the near future. Until then, I bought a heap of high tensile bolts that I can modify.
The smooth section of the shank is the exact length to go through the clevis forks, with the thread starting just after it pokes through. I ran a nut down the threads, lopped off the excess with the grinder and cleaned the thread up. I used good quality locknuts when I refitted them and adjusted them all up to have just enough slack that the clevis can still pivot, but not enough to let if flop around. Should do for now.

The next drama was the distributor cap. I pulled the old leads off and they were really badly corroded. The lead from the coil to the cap was so bad that I couldn't get it out at all. I soaked it in electroclean overnight and eventually managed to pull the lead out, but the metal end stayed stuck inside. I had to use a thin screwdriver to pry the metal away from the inside of the socket. With that out, I found that the aluminium sockets were really pitted inside, with sections missing on many of them.

In the RPS, it states that the cap for the older MK3 & 4 is a Bosch GB75. The RPS for the F1/F2 shows that the early type distributor uses a GB75, but the newer type uses a GB634. I checked the number on the top of my cap and it shows 9 231 065 504, which I found listed on a UK seller's site as matching the GB634 cap. I then spent ages running all over Devonport chasing this cap. Not a single shop had a listing for it. I even worked out that this cap was also fitted to a whole range of Mercedes cars, but that didn't help either. Nobody had a distributor cap listed for them.
Eventually, once I got home, I started ringing around Launceston. Second place I hit, the girl was able to look up the 9 231 065 504 number and searched back to find that it was a replacement/alternative to the earlier GB75 cap! Which I have, brand new, sitting spare on the MK3. I should have realised when I saw the points set was the same between the old and new distributors, but I expected something with the distributor body must have changed and required a different cap, otherwise why list 2 different part numbers from the old to the new model? Frustrating system.

I also drilled the diff drain bung to fit the rare earth magnet. Just need to glue it in and screw the bung back in. Then I can refill the diff, refit a couple of wheels and start it up to drive around the paddock. I'll reposition it nearer the fence on flatter ground so I can jack up the tray and drive out from under it. Then the real degreasing and cleaning can start.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Mick on June 19, 2017, 06:04:05 PM
Great work Ravin,

I'm really enjoying the story.

Cheers,

Mick
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on June 20, 2017, 08:25:00 AM
Well done cobber!

If you need a hand with the clevis pin manufacture, give me a call,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on June 20, 2017, 09:52:53 AM
Thanks all.

Late yesterday I sent an email off to Bosch Australia and they got back to me just now.
There is no record on their system of the GB634 distributor caps.
According to their records, the distributor on my F1, which matches the part number 9 230 061 653 from the RPS for the New Style distributor, should indeed take the 9 231 065 504 cap, which it had on it.
The interesting thing is that the number links back to their GB75 cap, which is what was on the Early Type distributor on the MK3 & 4.
See the pic below with some extra details relating to the Army landrovers and Series 3's. The funny part number for the Land Rover (Army) distributor cap is because it was shielded. He said they are no longer available though.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-zZnXgWW/0/aa168efe/S/i-zZnXgWW-S.jpg)

Interestingly, the GB75 cap that I bought for the MK3 has the same 9 231 065 504 number molded into the top, so I'll just use that.
I'll give all the lead ends and rubber caps a good smear of dielectric grease when I refit them all to help keep out corrosion.

I'll pick up a spare GB75 cap if I see one, just to be safe. They seem to be getting scarce.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on June 20, 2017, 07:14:19 PM

Greg if you need new points or a new rotor cap I can help you - just let me know.

Frank

Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 02, 2017, 01:53:04 PM
Thanks for the offer. I checked the points and they are really good. I suspect they had been changed not long before I got it. I used the GB75 cap, leads and the plugs from the other truck as they were brand new.

Well, some progress.
Today I reconnected some wiring under the dash and fitted a huge battery I rescued from a burnt out 30t excavator at work. It is a sealed type and almost new. I had it on charge/test on my charger all week and it tested as good as a new one on the carbon pile tester. Way bigger than the piddly little car one that was in the truck before.
I pumped some fuel through from the boat tank, until it showed in the glass float bowl, held the choke lever down with a finger and hit the starter. It fired and ran in under 2 seconds, way faster than it used to. I suspect the really worn plugs and corroded lead connections were causing problems.
While cold, I could hear that it needs the tappets adjusted. One in particular was very noisy. Another job to add to the list, but one I was expecting. The oil pressure gauge showed good pressure, but the fuel gauge was off the scale. I suspect that the wire has a rub-through somewhere underneath. When I switch it to the rear tank it dropped to empty, which is what the front should do.
I only needed to hold the choke on for about 15 seconds before it was idling happily. The Temp gauge didn't move off the Cold peg, but I had suspected it was dodgy as they have fitted an aftermarket temp gauge to the front panel next to the air cleaner monitor and the sender unit to a bolt on the head. It worked. I never thought to check while I was out there, but if I had of pulled the yellow wire off the original sender unit and shorted it to earth, I would have been able to check if it was a faulty sender or the wiring to the gauge on the dash. Next time.
The Amp meter happily trembled away. It didn't really change much, even when the revs were up high, but the battery was straight off the charger, so it probably wouldn't have wanted any amps off an old 1970's alternator. I know the MK3, with the generator, showed 20 to 30 amps when the engine was revved, but that was with a different battery that hadn't just been charged, and had used a fair bit of power getting the truck to start.
The tacho moved smoothly and the air pressure gauge moved up to 200kPa and sat there, which was odd. If I increased the revs, the pressure slowly crept up, but dropped back down to 200 if I took my foot off.
I moved around a bit and realised I could hear hissing. The little air valve on the hi/low range transfer case lever was leaking badly. Air was blowing up from under the lever. I recall pulling it apart and putting new o'rings in it, but maybe I put it back together wrong. If I lifted the lever, the leak stopped, so I grabbed some electrical tape and locked it back.
I could still hear hissing. This time it was the winch engage/disengage valve behind the seat. I shut everything down and pulled the valve out. I remember when I put it back together that I couldn't remember which way around the red plastic disk went, but that I had a 50/50 chance on getting it right. Guess I picked wrong.
There were 2 types of valves used for the winch engage/disengage system. The early type was a piston type and the newer type, which I have, is a rotary type. The air comes in the bottom and, depending on whether the handle is up or down, sends the air out to either the line that shoots the winch engagement piston out or the line that makes the piston suck in. The red plastic disk inside has a series of holes and slots that direct the air around. There is an outlet on the top of the valve that has a bung with a hole in it to let the air out of the winch engagement piston when you flip the lever. Mine was dumping high pressure air out here. I pulled the valve apart and rotated the plastic disk 180° and put it back together. It's pretty worn, and after refitting it I found it still leaks a bit, but it's way better than it was. I'll have to search around and see if there are any rebuild kits available. At the worst, I will have to swap it out for the piston type one from the MK3, as it uses o'rings and is easier to rebuild. Both types were PBR units. The rotary type was a PA625. The rebuild kit was CA62-14. The NSN is 2590-66-011-3037.
Even with these 2 leaks mostly sorted, the pressure gauge wasn't going up. Plan B.
I ran the hose out from my compressor and hooked it up to the truck's air system. I previously fitted an air tool nipple to the diff wading inflator valve under the dash. I just plugged the air hose onto this, opened the valve and pressurised the truck system to 60psi. With the truck turned off and the compressor way down in the old outside dunny, I could clearly hear a hissing under the truck. It sounded like it was coming from the back of the transfer case or maybe the winch air actuator.
Once I got under there, I found both of those were fine. It turned out to be coming from one of the steel lines that run to the tractor protection valve down the back. I felt around and found both pipes were leaking. This was an area where there was a lot of dirt sitting in the chassis rail. I can't get at it from underneath to clean it properly, so will wait until I lift the deck off. With that off I can pressure wash the whole length of the chassis rail and get at the pipes a lot easier. It looks as though either the bolt or clip that secure these pipes up to the wall of the rail has broken, letting them drop down into the dirt and rubbish and rub on the bottom of the chassis rail. Luckily, I still have 3 lengths of new steel pipe that I can use to replace the rusted air lines.

It was good to have it running again, and I am that little bit closer to having it driveable again.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on July 03, 2017, 08:21:33 AM
Congratulations Greg! Another milestone passed  :D
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on July 03, 2017, 04:46:02 PM
Great work Greg - always enjoy the post - PM sent re glass too.

Cheers

Frank

Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Philthy on July 05, 2017, 08:42:05 AM
Drivable is such a line in the sand.

You can put up with a lot of stuff once you get it going.

Did you get the cable unstuck from the drum? Had a thought, ::) you may be able to use the crane to pull  the cable off the drum?

Good luck with it.

Phil
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 05, 2017, 12:36:44 PM
Yes, I'm happy to drive it around the back paddock as it is. I can use the handbrake to pull it up as the ground is fairly flat, with just a slight slope from the back to the front.
Once I can move it, I will back it down along the fence line and jack up the tray and drive out. With the tray off, I have really good access to clean things and replace the air and brake lines.
I have to rebuild the hydraulic control unit before trying to engage the crane pump as it shows signs of heavy leaking. The whole back wall of the cab on the passenger's side is coated in oil, which has protected the paint.
The chassis rail has a large wad of old sheet bundled up on it, to soak up the leaking oil. It is saturated. The oil ran forward along the rail and coated the entire front spring and axle on that side of the truck. There are no signs of any leaks from the rams or connecting pipes, and only a few damp patches on the stabiliser legs. I've looked at a few exploded drawings of the control valve units and they seem to mostly rely on o'rings, so that should be pretty easy to rebuild.
I originally planned on making a tripod up to stand over the tray to pull the winch cable out, then realised, like you suggested, that the crane would do it a lot easier. I can also use it if I need to pull the winch out, if it ends up having internal damage, like I suspect it will. I could also use it to lower the transfer case out to clean up and replace the seals. It would be far easier than the setup I used when I did the MK3 transfer case and winch.
The biggest advantage to being able to move it will be being able to park it somewhere flat. At the moment it is sitting tilted over to the driver's side, partly because I didn't notice the slight slope when I parked and partly because the ground is a very coarse sandy loam, and the tires tend to sink over time.
Once I can drive it around, I half expect the damn water pump to start leaking. When I got it, the radiator cap had a rust hole in the centre, so it wasn't pressurising at all. Now I have replaced it, so we'll just have to see how it handles the pressure. I also noticed a bit of oil on the bottom fins of the oil cooler. Not sure where it came from. The MK4/F1 front end makes it a lot harder to get at everything than the more open MK3 type does.

If anyone notices this thread or the one for my MK3 and a few others that I have commented on in the past popping up showing as Unread, please ignore them. Photobucket are being nasty to a lot of the people using it to host photos that they then link in threads like these. They are forcing people to upgrade to a $399USD/year subscription plan to be able to continue linking and lock your pics so you can't download them. I'm lucky that they haven't gotten to mine yet, so I downloaded them last night and I am in the process of moving them to a paid SmugMug account. This means I have to update the pic links in all my posts. Takes a while and makes them all show as Unread.
Can't be helped. Either I do this or all my posts have nasty pics saying my Photobucket account is locked.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on July 06, 2017, 08:20:28 AM
... They are forcing people to upgrade to a $399USD/year subscription plan to be able to continue linking and lock your pics so you can't download them. ...Either I do this or all my posts have nasty pics saying my Photobucket account is locked.

Greg.

The same thing is happening on a metal shaping forum I visit; however; the admin there have posted how to upload and store pics on the forum itself, so that they can't be deleted by a third-party.

Is this possible to do on this forum?

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: DennisM on July 06, 2017, 08:27:55 AM
Not wanting to Hi-jack your thread as it is great even though I do not own an Inter, I have the same issue with images and a $500.00Au ransome, I have deleted all my albums (some 5,000 images) from their site and told them to close the acc I had with them, they were very quick shooting out the blockage but very non responsive with communication, I have transferred some images of my Locomotive build but that's all, anyway I'm looking forward to be able to read n see images within this thread, keep up the good work cheers Dennis :)
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: THE BOOGER on July 06, 2017, 09:10:08 AM
[Yes use the attachments button at the bottom of
Your reply
 quote author=Chazza link=topic=4370.msg50526#msg50526 date=1499293228]
... They are forcing people to upgrade to a $399USD/year subscription plan to be able to continue linking and lock your pics so you can't download them. ...Either I do this or all my posts have nasty pics saying my Photobucket account is locked.

Greg.

The same thing is happening on a metal shaping forum I visit; however; the admin there have posted how to upload and store pics on the forum itself, so that they can't be deleted by a third-party.

Is this possible to do on this forum?

Cheers Charlie
[/quote]
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 06, 2017, 04:52:28 PM
Pretty sure you can only attach 3 pics per post if you upload them to the forum.
The main reason is if there is a lot of activity, the site can quickly run out of storage space.
Not sure if that is the case with our forum. Would have to ask Phoenix.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: THE BOOGER on July 06, 2017, 06:21:20 PM
Up to five pics per post I use shrink pic to auto resize so they fit. Not aware of any limit per the forum post away ;D it is a bit slower than photobucket but we cant lose any photos this way :)
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 12, 2017, 05:31:58 PM
Well, it looks like I may have worked out the oil leak on the rear driver's side hub, one of the ones I have rebuilt.
I was ready to refill the intermediate diff with oil and noticed the truck was leaning over a fair bit as the ground slopes out the back. It didn't seem a lot, but I figured I should jack the low side up to level the diff so I could get the correct amount of oil in there. When I previously filled the rear diff, I found the amount listed in the F1 User Manual and used that to measure out the oil and pour in.
Anyway, I put my level across the tops of the springs, just in front of where they rest on the top of the axle housing. It was way out. I ended up jacking the driver's side up over 6" before getting the axle level. I built up the pad under the 3 tonne axle stand, as I want to leave the wheels off until I have the oil topped up. It's hard enough to get in between the 2 diffs with them off, let alone when you have to wriggle between the tires. I'm not built for that these days.
With the intermediate axle now sitting level, I could see that the rear one was also way out. Turns out it was also about 6" low. This means the diff oil would have run across and been sitting against the seal for all those months since I refilled it. The passenger's side should be fine, but I think I better pull the driver's side apart again and see how badly it has affected the grease packed around the bearings. Hopefully, I just need to drain the excess oil out, which I can do by pulling the axle out.
What worries me now is that the oil was leaking out around the axle flange. When I rebuilt it, I made a new 0.6mm thick paper gasket and also used Permatex non-hardening gasket goop. Either the oil got out through the paper gasket, or the gasket goop didn't do it's job. The intermediate axles were also replaced with the same gaskets, but I used a Loctite silicone type gasket maker. I'm sort of thinking I should just ditch the paper gaskets and use the silicone gasket stuff.

Oh, how's this for confusing? I went to check the oil capacities of the rear and intermediate diffs, so I could measure it out into bottles before wriggling under the truck. I went through the F1 User Manual and found 3 different capacities!

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-99wptcJ/0/243150a0/S/i-99wptcJ-S.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-KV24vLg/0/deeb061b/S/i-KV24vLg-S.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-gZxRdtR/0/4a95b959/S/i-gZxRdtR-S.jpg)

That is from pages 11, 15 & 86 of the F1 User Manual.

So either 6.7 pints, 7 pints or 9 pints. (3.8 litres, 4 litres or  5.1 litres)
Actually, if you look at the second pic, it has an error. It shows 7 imp pints as being 4.8 litres. It's not, it's 4 litres.

So, confusing as this all is, I'm just going to level the diff up and fill it to the bottom of the filler hole.
I levelled up the 2 diffs last night and this afternoon I pulled the bung out on the rear diff to check the level. I thought I might have overfilled it as it was angled over so far. Turns out the current level is about an inch down, so I will have to top it up. The rest is probably sitting in the hub with the nicely cleaned and packed wheel bearings.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on July 12, 2017, 07:48:13 PM
Greg - Good one, I have just finished all 6 wheels on my F1 and only had to replace three oil seals, the brakes were like brand new and very few wheel end leaks at all.  Now to the main drive shaft seals, that's another matter!  I used the keep it level and pump oil in until the level is one small finger tip below the filler hole.  I'll let you know how it works.  (Can't find emoticon for fingers crossed)  :D

Always enjoy reading your progress!

Frank
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 13, 2017, 11:52:35 AM
It's hard to tell where all my leaks are, as the diffs, power dividers, transfer case, gearbox and hydraulic pump for the crane are all coated in a thick layer of oil and dirt. It's over 1cm thick in many places.
Degreaser and a pressure washer don't make a dent in it at all. I used a narrow paint scraper to clean the thickest layers of it off the axle housings, and then used diesel and a wire brush to clean it back well enough for degreaser to finish the job. That was so I could paint the axle housings while the wheels were off. I still have to do the diff centre area though. No rush there. I'll wait till the tray is off and I can move it around the paddock, killing as much grass as possible.

I have rebuilt all 4 of the rear hubs now. I replaced all of the seals at the back of the hubs. All the ones I removed were the old felt and leather type and 2 were leaking. This was on the rear axle. The diff breather was blocked, so the pressure built up in there when it was warm and forced the oil past the outer seals, mixing it with the grease and then pushing it out past the back seal. I replaced the breathers on the back 2 diffs with a nipple, hose and sintered bronze filter, which was sold as a fuel filter. I ran the hose up the flexible brake lines from the diff centre, securing it with cable ties, which places the filter end up inside the chassis rail. I'll do the same with the front, when I get there. With the power dividers, transfer case and winch, I will just replace the original breather with a screw-in version of the brass filter. Its a good chance that these breathers are blocked, which has caused the oil leaks. Time will tell.

Do you remember where you got your outer seals? I think mine will be ok, as they weren't cracked or worn, and still seemed pretty flexible. I spent ages chasing after replacements before realising mine were still good, and I couldn't find anyone in Australia still selling them.

If your transfer case is caked with oil and dirt like mine, its a good chance that the old felt and leather seals are leaking. The good news is that they are all cheap to replace and you can do it while sitting under the truck. I replaced all the seals on the transfer case while it was out of my MK3. As the truck had been sitting still for many years, the nasty corrosive stuff that had run through the tray soaked into the felt of the seals and pitted the sealing surface of the drive flanges. I had to put Speedi-Sleeves on them all. When I replaced the seals, I was able to get much thinner, double lipped versions. This let me replace the originals with 2 thin seals, back to back. Even if the edge of the Speedi-Sleeve damaged one lip, there were 3 more.
If you plan on replacing the seals, let me know and I'll look up the numbers of the ones I used.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on July 13, 2017, 12:25:48 PM

Hi Greg - I purchased the seals from Mr Pat Toole, in Albury.  He is super helpful and very fast with delivery.  10/10 on all accounts.    I purchased some others by part number from a company in Melbourne - wrong size and it was just too hard to correct.  Thanks for the offer for the part numbers.  I know I am going have to replace them, and sooner is better than later.  I had a laugh when you mentioned the grass control method!   ;D   Oh to have space!  You are lucky to have your own test track too.

With an attempt to make the F1 more usable on the road, I have installed small LED long range driving lights.  These are fitted in such a way they can be removed without affecting the originality of the truck at the same time the light output is considerably much better.  I have nearly finished the carpeting of the interior after putting in heaps of body deadener and noise deadener in the engine compartment.  Diana made mention of how much noisier the diesel is over the standard 282 petrol engine, so at this stage I thought it would be best to reduce as much noise as I could.  Thermally it will be a vast improvement too.  I am going to put sound deadener under the bonnet as I have heard this works very well -

I have one spare axle oil seal if you need it.  Enjoy this post - this is what REMLR is all about.

Cheers Mate
Frank
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on July 14, 2017, 08:23:38 AM
... Even if the edge of the Speedi-Sleeve damaged one lip, there were 3 more.
Greg.

On splined-shafts, or Speedi-sleeves, wrap the shaft in a layer of copper or aluminium foil before installing the seal; this protects it from sharp edges.

Usually, with Speedi-sleeves I dull the edge with an oil-stone and kerosene before installing it,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 14, 2017, 09:17:14 AM
The problem I had was only with the first one that I installed, so it was probably just me.
When I cracked the rounded lip off, it didn't peel away cleanly and I twisted it until it broke away. This left a little burr on the edge. I noticed it though, and tried to tap it down flat, but it's springy stuff. I eventually got it smooth by gently draw-filing it.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 15, 2017, 04:42:19 PM
Didn't quite get it moved today.
I started by pulling the rear axle on the driver's side to clean the leaked oil out.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-GxXDcbw/0/b18b9aff/M/i-GxXDcbw-M.jpg)

The axle came out easily, and I realised what caused the leak. When I put it together last time, I hadn't finished painting the sling ring, so I left it off. It acts as a spacer, so the nuts couldn't quite pull the axle flange in tight enough.
As the axle started to come out, a big dribble of blue goop trickled out. Luckily, it looks like only a small bit of oil got past the seal to mix with the wheel bearing grease. That wheel has probably only turned about 10 revs since I repacked it, so the oil never got mixed in. I scraped out all the watery grease and found that as I got closer to the bearing, the thicker it was. I actually had solid grease at the bearings, so I stopped there and repacked the outer groove with fresh grease and put it back together, this time with the sling ring in place. Once tightened to 150 ft/lbs, I topped up the diff with about 1 cup of oil and then refilled the middle axle.

Next job was to put the wheels back on. This was a bit tricky as I have the driver's side jacked up to keep the axles level. I eventually remembered my ATV lift that I used to lower the transfer case on the MK3. I parked it under the hub, rolled the wheel on and jacked it up. Once the top cleared the brake drum, I lowered it a bit and it slipped straight into position.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-CXmHsRv/0/eb86f169/M/i-CXmHsRv-M.jpg)

The back wheel is still in it's original flaky paint with an old Dunlop tire on it. I will change the tire and clean and paint the rim when the weather is warmer so the paint will cure. It will do for now.

I thought I was done and ready to drive it around, but luckily remembered that I had removed most of the tray hold-down U-bolts to clean the chassis rails. I hadn't realised just how much the chassis flexes. With all the hold-downs removed on the drivers side and the back axles jacked up level, the chassis was flexing so far that I couldn't get the nuts on the U-bolts. Eventually I worked out that all I had to do was jack up the front axle and it all aligned again. I put 2 hold-downs on each side for now, just to stop it slipping off as I move around the yard a bit so I can park closer to the fence.
I have to try to find a couple of empty drums during the week. I have 3, but want 2 more so I can have 2 under the back, with wood blocks on top to pack it up, like when raising a house, and 2 at the front to support a long beam which will raise the front of the tray. Originally I was going to just have them under the tray, like the rear ones, and then realised that I wouldn't get the back wheels past them when I drove out. The 5th drum is to slip under where it is needed so I can jack the tray up off it and then repack the blocks on top of the other drums.

So, hopefully next weekend is the big move.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 28, 2017, 06:29:26 PM
Oh god, what an embarrassment.
I got home early today so I could move the truck. With the boat fuel tank strapped down, I got in and warmed it up. All my instruction plates are off at the moment, but I was pretty sure that pushing the transfer case lever forwards was for High Rear wheel drive and back was Low Rear wheel drive. You had to pull the little lever up to free the detent thing to get it into 6x6 and I found I can't get enough air pressure up to activate that, as there is a hole in one of the steel lines running to the rear Tractor Protection Valve. I can only get it up to about 300kPa, or 29 psi. Wasn't enough, anyway, as it wouldn't engage.

Anyway, I put it in first and tried to drive forwards. It was like I had an anchor out. It would creep forwards, but the engine was really struggling and twisting on the mounts with the strain.
I tried rocking it, thinking something might just be tight from not moving in so long, but it didn't help. I managed to creep forward a full truck length until the tires on the middle axle dropped into the holes where the front had settled over the last year and a half.
The soil out the back is basically an ancient sand dune that now has a lot of organic matter in it. Anything sitting on it slowly sinks in, but you could empty a water tanker out on it and never know.
With the first back tires in the hole, the rears started to slip, then the 2 on the passenger side spun freely. Things went downhill from there. I tried going back, but that didn't work either. Time to get out and have a look.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-cHfjt6k/0/ab446c40/M/i-cHfjt6k-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-XLbgFmz/0/2da6380c/M/i-XLbgFmz-M.jpg)

Yeah, stuck.
Now what was causing the drag? That was a real concern. I remember it was a struggle getting it down from the tilt tray originally. I thought it was the rear brakes sticking because someone had 2 of the shoes on backwards, but I had rebuilt all four rear hubs and they all spun. Then I had a thought. What if the damn winch drive was engaged, even though the lever in the cab was in the disengage position?
I got underneath and spent the next 45 minutes scraping grease and gunge off the winch drive shaft flange, looking for the bolts. Finally got them out and the shaft hanging free. Tried to move the truck and it still was struggling. Not that then.
Next thing, front axles and brakes. I got underneath and tried jacking the passenger side up but it just pushed my jacking block into the ground. I found a jacking block with a bigger footprint and tried again. Got the tire off the ground and it spun freely, turning the front driveshaft too, so that's good.
Got under the driver's side and found the tire had sunk down with the rocking around I had done. Jack won't fit underneath. I need a lower jack. I hope to find one of the lower army ones eventually, as if I get a flat on the road, I won't be able to get this jack underneath and often you can't dig a hole to slip it into. I used the jack without any plate and used it to squash the ground down a bit. Several rounds of this and I could get the jacking plate in and up we slowly went. I got the jack to full extension without lifting the tire clear, so dropped it and was able to get another packer in. Full extension again and still seemed to be sitting on the ground, until I realised I could run my hand under the tire. No way was the tire turning though. Here's the problem then.
I was able to back the brake adjuster off about 8 full turns and found the wheel now spun freely.
I got back in and had one last go at moving it. Now I could really get a good rock going, but not enough to pop it free. So close.
Now here's the silly part. I have been using 4wd vehicles in the bush for years, yet it never occurred to me to drop the tire pressures. Seems the manual shows you should drop from 60psi down to 30psi front and 26psi rear when on sand or mud. These are 20 ply tires and there is almost no weight on the back, so I don't know how much they will flatten out, but I'll try it tomorrow morning. If it isn't enough, I can jack both rear axles up and put a couple of sleepers under them. If I get any speed up I should be able to trundle around safely.

The worst thing is I messaged my sister and sent her a pic. She immediately sent it to all the kids in the Venturer group she runs and now I am getting offers from a smart-mouthed 15 year old girl to come pull me out with her jeep. If I'll come get her cos she only has her learners.

Going to be a long time before they let me forget this.  ::)

Greg.


Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on July 28, 2017, 07:00:47 PM
Good on you Greg!  Well done for having a go!   :D  I really enjoy this post!

Frank

Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on July 29, 2017, 09:58:26 AM
Letting them down as low as 20 psi should be OK.

Good problem solving by the way – let us know how you get on,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on July 29, 2017, 01:42:08 PM
Well it took 3 hours, but its out and parked on more even ground, ready to take the tray off.

We let the rears down to 26 psi, but they didn't squish out much, due to being 20 ply sidewalls and having no weight on the back. One of them was one of the original old-style 8 ply tires and it squashed down more, but it was on the side that wasn't spinning.

The front drivers side had sunk down about 8 inches, just sitting overnight. It didn't help that there was a slight rise in front of it. The dropped front took weight off the back passenger side, which is why it lost traction.
We slid a sleeper under the back axles and jacked them up. I put vehicle stands under them, let the jack down and used more packing until I had both wheels clear of the ground surface. We dug out the soil between the 2 wheel holes, as well as in front and behind, then put a pine sleeper in the hole. When I let the truck down, the tires were now just above ground level.

I had a go at driving it out, but the tires just spun on the timber. After trying to rock it forwards and backwards a bit, we realised it wasn't getting traction. The front driver's side had now sunk down to where the edge of the rim was at ground level. After digging a hole under the front to get the jack in, I jacked it up, or more accurately, I jacked the jack down into the ground. I was able to squash enough ground to get a board under the jack and got the wheel up enough to jamb some timber under it. Another packer under the jack, up again, and there was enough clearance to dig a recess big enough to get a short sleeper under there.
Another attempt at moving now had the other side spinning. The ground sloped up just in front of the driver's side tire, and it was just enough to cause the back to spin.

Ok, try backing up. We filled in the holes behind the wheels and grabbed all the wood offcuts to throw under the wheels. I tried going backwards and moved about 2 feet before it started spinning again. I figured I would rock it a bit and put it in first and gave it heaps. We shot forward at a slow crawl, and I realised I was still in Low 4, so stopped and put it in High 4. Roared back until it started spinning, then threw it into first. This time we really surged forwards. I felt a bump as the front wheels bounced out of the little hole it had started sinking into, but we were still moving, so I gave it heaps and away we went.

I'm really surprised at how slow first gear is. Is it mostly for starting off up hills or when loaded? I used to drive a Mitsubishi canter where first was only for slow crawling when loaded up. It was also nearly impossible to go from first to second or second to first while moving.
Damn, that steering box is low ratio. I was really surprised how many turns it took to slowly swing the truck around. Some muppet broke or lost the spring that pulls the seat adjusting lever in place, so they ran a couple of roofing screws through the adjuster channel to lock the seat in one place. Unfortunately, it meant I have to do contortions to get my legs under the steering wheel and my knees kept getting hit when I worked the clutch. Another issue is that I need to lose a lot of weight. These trucks were designed for skinny, physically fit army drivers. I don't meet any of those descriptors. I think I got a friction burn on my belly from spinning the steering wheel.

Another issue was that I have the cowling and the lower shroud off the engine so I could patch them up and repaint and soundproof them. I also had the passenger's side door tied open so I could see my sister on that side as she gave me directions. I also found that the muffler on it is home-made and has a big hole in it. All this meant that the whole time I was revving and roaring, trying to get unstuck, I was choking on stinky exhaust fumes. I was thinking of putting my spare muffler on, but decided that I'll take the new one off the MK3 as it is already painted with hi temp engine paint. The MK3 isn't going anywhere under it's own power, so it doesn't need an exhaust. Should make this one sound better too.

Oh, the handbrake works too. I found that out while rolling backwards down the paddock towards where I wanted to park. I found it's really hard to grab the handbrake lever when you are in reverse as the gearstick gets in the way.
Luckily, we kept nice and cool while working, 6° with showers. Just lovely.  ;D
I think I will get a couple of flat steel or aluminium plates to keep in the tool box to use as foot plates under the jack. I'll weld a loop to them that I can tie a short length of rope to, to make it easier to pull them out afterwards.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on July 29, 2017, 07:30:27 PM
...
I'm really surprised at how slow first gear is. Is it mostly for starting off up hills or when loaded? ...
Greg.

Yes. I used to start in second gear most of the time.

1st gear is awesome for steep hills, descending or ascending; crawling over rocks etc. and for showing off to your friends as you let it drive away in 1st low, whilst you stand next to it.  :D

Doing some weights for a week or two, is really helpful to cope with the steering as well,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 10, 2017, 01:35:04 PM
Well, I picked up the steel to replace the rails under the truck today.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-d9MBRgm/0/d20f38e2/L/i-d9MBRgm-L.jpg)

Its 150x75x6mm. Overkill, but I will never have to replace it.
The original stuff was 140x75, like an oversized C purlin. It measured at about 2.5mm thick, but had rusted through in many places. The other issue is that it had squashed badly in a few places where the tray cross-members sat, so I think they must have had some heavy loads on it, on bumpy roads, at some point.

The only issue I will have is that the crossmembers bolt through the rail, so I need some way to get a bolt down inside the rail and then up through the hole. I might sacrifice a cheap spanner, cut one end off and weld it to a piece of 1" box tube, and put a tack in the spanner hole so the bolts can't drop through. I then sit the bolt in the spanner, feed it down the rail and pop it up through the rail and cross-member while someone puts on the washer and nut.
The rail is 3.6m long, so I only need to reach in 1.8m from each end, at the most. I just need to make sure the holes really line up well.
Hopefully I will get the tray off this weekend.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dugite on August 10, 2017, 01:46:15 PM
I sure enjoy following this thread - you certainly are a thinkin' man Greg
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Lionelgee on August 10, 2017, 07:55:38 PM
Hello Greg,

Instead of sacrificing a spanner could you use a length of thin tie-wire fed through the hole and out the end of the box section? Then without obstructing the bolt thread could you superglue or Loctite the tie wire to the threaded-end of the bolt. Pull the wire up through the hole as you draw the wire up out of the hole? Once the nut is fed through and done up a couple of threads the bit of wire could be snipped off.

The other option is to use bolts pre-drilled for castellated nuts designed for split pins and use the tie-wire through the bolt hole to draw the bolt through the hole

Kind Regards
Lionel
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 11, 2017, 08:22:17 AM
Yep. The only problem then is stopping the bolt turning while doing it up.  :)

Of course, I could tack a piece or rod or wire, similar to that used in concrete reinforcing mesh, across the head. Make it long enough so the bolt can't turn.
There's a market each Sunday just 5 minutes away and there are a couple of stalls there that have baskets of old mixed spanners and other tools for $1 each or so. I just have to check what size the bolts are. The RPS says they are 1/2", so that should be a 3/4" or 7/8" head. Will check this afternoon if it isn't raining again.
I had a quick look last night, and there are 6 bolted cross-members across the rails, so 12 holes to drill.
I'll mark the new rails off one of the rusted ones.
Just have to check if any of my contractors has a magnetic based drill I can borrow. Don't fancy trying to drill 12x 1/2" holes through 6mm steel freehand with my cordless, and the beams are too heavy and unwieldy to bring into work to do on the pedestal drill.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on August 11, 2017, 09:05:14 AM
A really good tool for drilling those holes is a step-drill; I drilled a 24mm hole in 20mm plate with one last week, use plenty of soluble oil.

Your spanner welded to a long pole is a good one; if you tear strip of paper and place it in the ring spanner and then push in the head of the bolt it will stay in place while you manoeuvre it,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 12, 2017, 08:31:13 PM
Well, it was a very satisfying day, although it was blowing 50+km for most of it.
I started at the back, jacking each side up, a bit as a time. I had to raise the tray about 200mm, so the rails would clear the winch sheaves and rollers at the back when I drove out.
I noticed that as it went up, the tray seemed to slide back. Not good. The drums I was using seemed a bit unstable. They tilted back when I jacked the tray up. I should have filled them with water first, but thought I might need to move them. Yeah, that was a mistake.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-h8z7RB2/0/65588d71/M/i-h8z7RB2-M.jpg)

The tray slipped sideways at the back. The front started to go, but hooked the dome of the winch housing. I was able to get a jack under the corner and lift it back up a bit, then I hooked my Tirfor onto the tray and the neighbours tree and got some tension on it. That's the point I was at when I took the pic above.

I got my sister to come over and give me a hand, and things went a lot easier. We got the back realigned and jacked up, then supported it on stacked timber, but it was too unstable and the tray started sliding back again. The drums were tilting as well. The yard looks flat, but actually slopes back. With the back jacked up higher, supported on sleepers and my truck stands, we were able to start on the front.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-K3TCvF5/0/2948b6fa/M/i-K3TCvF5-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-tWPLSZR/0/7c336715/M/i-tWPLSZR-M.jpg)

Using the steel beam was a mistake. We tried to jack the front up enough so that the blue beam would clear the rear winch rollers, but that put the tray on an angle again, and it tried to slide away again. The rear drums were at a precarious slope, so we ran some ratchet straps from the tray to the crane legs and pulled it back.
We first had the beam through in front of the winch, but that didn't work as we couldn't lift it high enough to clear the top of the winch housing. We chocked it and moved the beam back to just behind the winch. It was too close to the point of balance for my taste, but there was no other option.
We got it fairly stable and I started the truck and crept forward. My observer was so intent on filming the truck creeping along that she didn't notice that the blue beam hadn't cleared the winch rollers at the back and was sliding along the tray rails. I actually heard it, even over the engine, and stopped before it slipped out too far.
A new plan was thought up. We chocked the tray, moved the beam right up to the front edge of the tray and jacked it up again. Then, I drove forward until the beam was aligned with the front of the rollers. We chocked the tray and moved the beam and drums to just behind the rollers and realised we had run out of light, but the wind had disappeared.
We ran a chain across the front of the tray and hooked the Tirfor between it and the Abbey crane and pulled the tray back enough that the rear drums were sitting level again and left it for tomorrow.

Earlier, while waiting for my sister to arrive, I got to have a look at the top of the winch.
Very interesting!

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-5q88Gms/0/de9a10a2/M/i-5q88Gms-M.jpg)

It's a bit hard to see, and I'll get getter pics tomorrow, but that's the end of the air actuator you can see in the pic. It's not connected!
Someone has removed the pin, dropped the piston off the winch actuator arm and replaced the pin and split-pin.
No wonder the winch won't work. I have to see if it is engaged or disengaged tomorrow, once we get the tray sitting level and stable.
It's going to make a huge difference, being able to get at everything from the top.

More info and pics tomorrow.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 13, 2017, 02:39:01 PM
Got the tray all the way off this morning.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-cDdsLsm/0/d3fa0207/M/i-cDdsLsm-M.jpg)

This is how I left it last night. The cable stopped it going back any further, as it was trying to. The back drums had a lot of angle on them this morning.
We put a drum in the centre, between the rails, and lacked it up enough to remove the side jacks. We lowered it down as low as we could and left it sitting on the drums.
We moved the 5th drum to the rear and took the weight while we stabilised the 2 rear drums. They had been leaning way back as the ground sloped away.
We levelled the ground with timber and put down a steel sheet to help spread the load, then lowered the back of the tray down so the whole thing is close to level.
I'll fill the drums with water later, which should help stabilise it.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-tSk33dS/0/5a65b4fe/M/i-tSk33dS-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-BnLXhcX/0/7da0eb03/M/i-BnLXhcX-M.jpg)

With the tray off, I was able to have a good look at the chassis, winch and bits.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-7XcdW2n/0/3a834579/M/i-7XcdW2n-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-PzLg4fg/0/9f659101/M/i-PzLg4fg-M.jpg)

Something really likes snails. The cross-member was full of empty shells with holes chewed through them. Good on whatever it is.
I put a big shifter on the winch actuator arm and was able to move it a tiny amount, just enough to know that the rod isn't stuck in the alloy housing like the one on the MK3 was.
It looks like either the big worm drive or gear is stripped, or the dog clutch/main shaft spline is stripped. I can probably work out which. If I spin the drive flange, the main shaft should turn.
If it doesn't, then the worm drive/gear is stripped. If the shaft turns, then it's the dog clutch/main shaft spline that is stripped.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-p7fPhKK/0/ba993cda/M/i-p7fPhKK-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-kw8mvn9/0/209a0325/M/i-kw8mvn9-M.jpg)

The two pipes in the first pic run to the tractor protection valve (second pic). These are the ones with the hole in them that stops me building any pressure.
I'll replace them once I clean all the crud out of the rail and treat the rust between the double layered chassis rails. I see I have to replace the brake lines and fittings too, which I expected.
I see one of the wires is off the sensor on the tractor protection valve. I wonder if this is why my low air buzzer doesn't work?

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-VNjGHkf/0/779d8ba3/M/i-VNjGHkf-M.jpg)

Lastly, while packing everything up before the rain, my sister looked up and saw the Abbey plate on the crane. She asked if that was the truck's name and didn't understand why I was laughing.
Looks like it's name is now Abbey.  ;D

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on August 13, 2017, 03:59:42 PM
...
Something really likes snails. The cross-member was full of empty shells with holes chewed through them. Good on whatever it is...

Looks like it's name is now Abbey.  ;D

Greg.

Rats do that; I found a ceiling full of them once!

First girl truck I have heard of – I like it!

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Murray Mk4 Inter on August 13, 2017, 09:49:27 PM
Great work, well done.
I always look forward to your updates.

Cheers Murray

Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 18, 2017, 04:57:49 PM
Just a quick update.
I finished work early and picked something I thought I might get done before it gets dark. I wanted to get the winch roller assembly apart so I could free the eyelet on the end. It had been pulled in with so much force that the eyelet had taken a chunk out of the lip of one of the pulleys.

It took some effort. I even had to go back into town to get a couple of heavy duty sockets. There are 8 bolts with 15/16" heads that were really tight. I had a standard 1/2" drive breaker bar and had to put a pipe on it for extra leverage, and still a couple wouldn't let go. I could feel that I was close to splitting the socket or shearing the 1/2" drive end off. There are also 3 big bolts through the pulleys with 1-1/2" heads. I had to be careful here as the heads are all drilled and tapped, with grease nipples in them. I didn't want to shear a grease nipple off if I could avoid it. Typically, I didn't have a socket big enough. Luckily, the place in town had both sockets available in 3/4" drive. With the new sockets, my 3/4" drive breaker bar and my length of pipe, I was able to get them all out without breaking anything.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-tj5fhkN/0/e9e93f1a/M/i-tj5fhkN-M.jpg)

The 3 big bolts that go through the pulleys will be reusable, with a good clean and a die run over the threads. The others will all be replaced. The heads are pitted and the old nyloc nuts chewed out pretty badly.

It's still a bit cool for paint to cure properly, so I will just give the pulleys and upper and lower plates a bit of a clean up for now. The top plate will need some heavy-duty panelbeating. I might be able to use the press to get it back into shape. It's pretty heavy steel. I'm not sure what the deal is with the rear roller. There doesn't seem to be a way to remove it, other than grinding through the welds. I'll have to have a bit of a play and see how its set up.

Hopefully, I will have Sunday to get some work done. Hoping it doesn't rain. I want to get the Karcher in and clean all the mud and rubbish out of the chassis rails so I can see what needs replacing. The 2 air lines running down to the tractor protection valve are high on the list. Once that's sorted, I will try releasing the winch and pulling the cable out, but I'm fairly certain something is stripped inside. Lucky I have the one off the MK3 in pieces and all cleaned up. If I have to drop the winch to dismantle it, I will get the Abbey crane working. Should make it easy.

I had a look at the control gear the other night, looking for where the leaks might be coming from. I found this.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-nwnkqVt/0/ea8bba9d/M/i-nwnkqVt-M.jpg)

It's a bit hard to see, but the base of the second control valve body has something missing. It is an open hole. I'm betting that is where all the oil is coming from.
I'll disconnect, cap and label all the hoses going to the control unit and see if I can remove it. Once off, I can clean it up and see what needs replacing. We have quite a few hydraulic service places nearby, servicing the forestry machinery, so I should be able to find someone who knows their stuff.

More on Sunday, hopefully.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Mick on August 18, 2017, 09:47:26 PM
Greg,

When you get this truck on the road I'll vote for you to be Prime Minister.

Keep up the good work 👍👍
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Bluebell One-eight on August 18, 2017, 09:51:53 PM
Hi Greg, with the winch drive I think that there is a shear pin on the input shaft to the winch itself ( between the drop box with the cutout switch and winch shaft) It's so long since working on these it's a bit vague! This pin will hopefully all that's wrong. I can't remember how it's accessed, but I'm sure you'll be able to work it out. John
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 18, 2017, 11:29:57 PM
Mick, why would you wish such a terrible fate on me? :)

John, the MK3 and 4 had the shearpin. The F1/2/5 is set up a bit differently.
The MK3/4 is driven from the front, with the brake box on the back of the winch housing, on the end of the worm shaft.
The F1/2/4 has the worm shaft poking out the back and it is driven from there, through a chain drive box, similar to the power dividers on the rear axles. The brake box is on the front of the winch housing. There is no shearpin. Instead, it uses an electric cutout that shuts the engine off.

The reason that I think something in the box is stripped is that I can rotate the input shaft and see the other end of the worm drive turn, where it pokes through the brake box. I know the winch dog clutch is in the Engaged position, as I can see the actuator arm now that the tray is off. By rights, turning the drive shaft with the winched Engaged should turn the drum, but it doesn't.
Before I cut the jammed winch cable, I really swung off it and tried levering it with a crowbar and the drum never moved a millimetre.
What I have to do now that I can see it clearly, is spin the driveshaft and see it the main shaft through the drum is turning. If it turns, the worm shaft and gear are fine and either the spline on the main shaft is damaged, or the dog clutch has stripped its guts. Another possibility is that the 2 big plates that bolt to the end of the winch drum that the dog clutch engages could have sheared their bolts.
If the main shaft through the drum doesn't turn, then the worm shaft or drive gear is stripped. Either way, I have the parts to fix it, but I'll have to drop it out.

It's interesting that the winch overload device didn't cut the engine out before they did so much damage to the sheaves on the back. It's also odd that they disconnected the winch air actuator, put the pin back in the clevis and also put the split pin back. The way the transfer case and winch are positioned, you can't actually get your hand up there. So I have no idea how they managed it. Or why.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Bluebell One-eight on August 19, 2017, 08:48:05 AM
Hi Greg, The pin I'm talking about when it fails would disconnect the drive where the chain box motion is connected to the winch worm shaft, there is a hole through the worm shaft like the Mk3, 4. Check and see if turning the PTO flange also turns the shaft where the brake is. If it does there is an internal failure in the winch. If it doesn't it is the pin or chain that has failed. The micro switch as the army called it was notorious for failure, because water and / or dust entered it and caused corrosion. I have an F1 winch without the drop box and will check when I'm out there. The winch will turn the opposite way because of the way it's driven, so there may be internal differences between 4X4 & 6X6s. the manufacturers did make left and right winches. Anyway it would be nice if it's only a pin rather than an internal failure. John
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Mick on August 19, 2017, 12:41:33 PM
Sorry to offend Greg, just reckon if you can save your old girl you can do pretty much anything.

😊👍👍👍😊
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 19, 2017, 04:55:14 PM
Sorry to offend Greg, just reckon if you can save your old girl you can do pretty much anything.

😊👍👍👍😊

Hehe no worries, Mick, I wasn't offended.
If I took the job, I'd be sacking so many from all sides that Centrelink would be swamped.  ;D

John, I just got home and had a quick look at the diagram. I see the pin you mean. It's inside the torque box, locking the flange on the shaft that goes through the winch, the one I keep referring to as the worm shaft. :)
I went out the back and had a look at the winch. I can turn the drive shaft with a screwdriver through the uni joint yokes, and the brake wheel on the far side of the box is turning at the same rate.
This tells me that the torque/chain drive box is fine and that the worm shaft isn't snapped. I looked at the end of the main winch drive shaft, where it comes out through the back of the housing and has a big castellated nut and split pin, and it isn't moving.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Mvpfk7d/0/551c1a67/M/i-Mvpfk7d-M.jpg)

This is the one from the MK3.

The fact that the main shaft isn't turning tells me that either the spline on the worm shaft or in the centre of the worm drive gear (shown above), is stripped.
It's also possible that the outer teeth on the drive gear are damaged, or the corresponding drive faces on the worm shaft are.

I would suspect it may be the outer teeth on the drive gear, as it seems to be brass. The worm shaft is steel and so is the insert in the worm drive gear with the spline.
Either way, the winch will need to come out. That means I need to get the crane operational. After I clean the chassis rails down. Tomorrow.

I was planning on disconnecting the 8 pipes that connect to the control valves and putting small plastic bags over the ends, held with rubber bands.
This should keep the moisture out until I can reconnect them. I don't think they will be full of oil as after I parked the truck when I got it here, oil started leaking out the filler/breather on the top of the hydraulic oil tank.
I think it drained back from the rams and lines as air was able to get in through the control valves after I played with the levers a bit.
I'd say I damaged an o'ring. It didn't start leaking until I played with it and it had been sitting there 6 months by that time.

I should have a good update tomorrow.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 23, 2017, 12:27:04 PM
Seeing as I need to drop the winch out in order to disassemble it, I figured I better get the Abbey crane running.
I knew it had been leaking badly, and I didn't want to do more damage, so I pulled the spool assembly out after work yesterday.
Most of the hoses use a 7/8" nut and as usual, I had every spanner except that one. No idea where it got to, as I am sure I have 2.
It made it a lot harder, having to use a shifter. If anyone else does this, you need a 1" spanner to stop the BSP to JIC fitting screwing out when you undo the hoses.
As I took each hose off, I put a plastic sandwich bag over the end and secured it with a couple of rubber bands, to stop any moisture or other rubbish getting into the system. I also stamped a small aluminium disk with a number and put it in the bag so I can work out which hose goes where when I put it back together.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-kKk4ghx/0/2c049b92/M/i-kKk4ghx-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-N9FRtpM/0/8ec128e7/M/i-N9FRtpM-M.jpg)

You can't see it in the pics above, but there is a long pin that runs through the back of the blocks that the control rods all pivot on. You need to take the circlip off and tap it back with a hammer and punch, far enough to remove the left side control rod, before you can get a socket or spanner on the bolt that holds the whole spool block to the metal frame behind it. Be gentle, as the sections of the spool body that the pin goes through are cast and probably brittle. I can see on mine that 2 of the 4 are broken and missing. Hopefully, the others should be enough to hold it.

I took it into the hydraulics place that helped me out with the fittings for the MK3 air lines and he gave me all the red caps to block the inlets/outlets for nothing. I want to give the whole outside a good degrease and light sandblast before I disassemble it and the caps should keep any rubbish out. I just have the opening on the bottom of the second spool body to plug first. The guy said that these bits are just a cover over the bottom of the main spring, and the idea is that if the o'rings or seals leak on any of the control pistons, the oil would get past and sit in these cups. There is a small hole in the bottom to let it drip out, so you know it is leaking. After looking at the one with the missing cap, he said it is likely that someone has rebuilt it with an aftermarket part, or put it together wrong, as the insert is seated a lot further into the body than the others and shows a lot of old oil leakage. Only dismantling it will tell for sure.

I managed to track down a company in Australia that still had stock of the original rebuild kits for these units. I have a full set coming, so will make a note of all the sizes of the o'rings and seals, in case others need specific part info. The guy at the hydraulics place said that most hydraulic control units are pretty basic and there are loads of aftermarket parts. Ha said that he would be very surprised if they couldn't replace every part of this unit if they had to, which is good news.

I'll put up more pics once I get it all cleaned up and as I rebuild it.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on August 27, 2017, 04:55:31 PM
I started cleaning up the spool block today. I gave it a good spray with degreaser and scrubbed the worst grease and oil off.
I gave the outside a bit of a go over in the sand blasting cabinet, with new garnet, and it cleaned up pretty well. There are still parts that I will have to do again, once more is disassembled, as you just can't get into all the grooves and corners. I ran out of the thick paper tape that I use for masking off the delicate areas, so I'll have to do it during the week, after work.

The control rods came up shiny and smooth. There were at least 3 layers of paint on them. They have now been primed and hung in the sun all day to cure.

I started pulling the spool body apart and found it is a pretty simple unit.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-XPsgWv7/0/4243604a/M/i-XPsgWv7-M.jpg)

Once you undo the 2 small 1/4" bolts on the bottom retainer, the whole piston can be slid out. Everything inside was very clean, no sign of dirt, rust or metal flakes.
As you can see on the pic above and the one in the previous post, the second spool base is different the the other 3. There is no dust plug in the bottom and it is shorter. I am guessing that the unit was rebuilt at some point and they used an aftermarket kit.
I managed to get 4 of the original Vickers-Eaton rebuild kits. The RPS says these kits contain 7 o'rings and seals needed to rebuild one spool. The kits contain far more than that. It's going to be fun to see where all the other bits go.

As you can see in the pics, the first 2 spool bodies have the top of the cast housing missing where the pin goes through that the control rods pivot on. When I reassemble them all, I will move the third spool body to where the second is, to try to spread the load a bit. I have to straighten that pivot pin too, as it is bent in several places. Not sure how they managed that.
I think that once I get it all rebuilt and painted, I might get a waterproof canvas hood made up to cover the levers, valve bodies and the pressure gauge and cut-out unit to protect it from the elements a bit. Will see how it goes.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 08, 2017, 03:16:09 PM
Well, I pulled the unit apart, cleaned everything and replaced all the seals and things.
I've reassembled it and gave the whole thing a good painting.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-z9Mvxrp/0/6befca30/M/i-z9Mvxrp-M.jpg)

Not the best pic.
I have to make a new rod to replace the one that all the control handles pivot on. The original one is pretty worn and bent.
If it isn't too wet this weekend, I'll get it remounted and hook all the hoses up. I need to power up the hydraulics to find any leaks.
The guys at the hydraulics place checked everything when it was in pieces and said that a couple of the spindle pistons had a bit of wear, but it should be fine.
There's no way to tell until it gets oil under pressure into it.

Will be interesting to see if it works.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dugite on September 08, 2017, 03:19:03 PM
Well done Greg - you must utilise your time well !
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ford Blitz on September 08, 2017, 04:48:16 PM
About 15 years ago we had a mark 5 6x6 tipper at work and it was the most useful truck ever! It use to pop out of low gear going down hill if you didnt keep the revs up. Use to combat this by wrapping my leg around the gear stick to hold pressure on the selector. It was something else at 60MPH and not for the faint hearted. I loved the old beast and it was a sad day when the made me get rid of it as it was "too old". I took its ID plates off before it went and I still have them somewhere in the shed. Both It and the GMC 6x6 were one of the few trucks that would go further than the driver was capable of.
The mob at ten terminal looked after the maintenance for us.
I would love to get a tanker 6x6 but best not tell the other half of these aspirations just yet.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 09, 2017, 02:37:13 PM
Thanks all. With the days getting longer and the weather improving, I should get more done.

I wouldn't mind a tipper. I know where 2 are, also, but doubt they would part with them. I better get this one finished first.  ;D

Well, awesome morning so far. I got the hydraulic control unit back in place and all reconnected. Something to note if anyone else will be rebuilding one of these: mark the BSP/JIC fittings before you pull them out of the spool blocks, or totally rebuild one unit before the other. Those fittings are a right bugger to get back in and tightened up if you bolt all the spool bodies together first. You also need to be sure you get the fittings in the right spool bodies. I got 2 mixed up, one a JIC flare fitting and the other a BSP. I had to remove 3 others before I could get room to switch these 2 around.

With these all reconnected, I started the truck and let it warm up. I had no idea what gear I should be in, so chose First and just had it at a bit above idle. I have the engine cover and lower shroud off at the moment, so no hand throttle. I stuck a bit of cardboard between the throttle arm and the intake manifold and played around until I got it running at a fast idle. Transfer case in neutral, gearbox in First, I pushed the clutch in and pulled up on the T-handle for the hydraulic pump. And nothing happened. The damn cable or something was seized.
I managed to squirt some CRC on the shaft under the T-handle, and with some wriggling, got it to come up.

With the pump engaged and running, I madly tore around, dragging the ladder so I could get up high enough to see everything, I checked for leaks.
My rebuilt spool body seems to be leak free!
Unfortunately, I found where the original big leak was from.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Sv7cLPR/0/a0fad9ba/M/i-Sv7cLPR-M.jpg)

I think this is the return line from the bypass. With the tap handle where it is in the pic, you close the bypass and get the full flow through the controls. This makes things move fast. I found it best to slow it right down when using the Slew or rotate control. There's a lot of weight swinging around and when it stops, it rocks the whole truck.

Anyway, I tried tightening the leaking nut up as tight as I could and it is still leaking. There's a flare fitting to a steel pipe there, so the flare on the end of the pipe must be badly formed or something.
I'll have to pull the pipe out and see what's wrong.

Well, with the truck ticking over happily, I had a play with all the controls. It took a bit, at first, to get the stabiliser legs to work. It's pretty twitchy. I had a lot of trouble working out just where the handle had to be to make the legs drop. There is a long rod running across the back of the cab with a knob on each end. If you are on the driver's side, you push it away from yourself, against a spring, while turning the stabiliser leg control up or down to raise or lower the leg. It's pretty slow, but that could be because I had the revs low or because it was in First gear.
I'll have to have a good look at the leg on the passenger's side, as I found that the control handle was able to be slid out, as if a locking pin was missing.

With the legs back up, as I previously pumped about 10L of hydraulic fluid out of the system and was worried I would run dry if I left them down, I had a play with the crane controls.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-CMDXWbS/0/e2b5aea3/M/i-CMDXWbS-M.jpg)

They all worked and I didn't find any leaks. It was slow. I'll have to try with the revs higher. It fairly loaded up the engine when I pulled the third boom back in.
It could also be that old grease coating the sides and bottom of it though. I'll clean it off with kero and give it some fresh stuff. I'll have to get some waterproof grease or cable lube.

Now, my big issue that I need people's opinion of.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Df8BvWM/0/459a1274/M/i-Df8BvWM-M.jpg)

This is the first ram. Some of that stuff on the shiny section is old dried grease. The other stuff is light rust. I fully extended the ram and the rust only goes up about half the length. How do I treat that? The second and third rams are nice and shiny, no rust at all, so I pulled them both back in to protect the surfaces from the weather but left the first one extended out half way. I didn't want to pull it back in and damage the seal, which doesn't seem to be leaking. I thought maybe wipe the ram down with kero to remove any grease and then carefully rub just the little rusty spots with a green scourer? If that cleans them off, wipe the ram with oil and retract it?

I was so excited about getting to check out the crane that I never even thought about greasing it first. Hopefully I've done no damage. With it pivoted around like it is, I can now get at all the grease nipples, so I'll give them all a good wire brushing to remove the old dried gunk and pump a load of grease into them all.

Once I get the leak fixed I will spray everything with degreaser and give it a good blast. I'm betting it hasn't been cleaned in many years. There is grease and gunk caked onto all the hoses and fittings.

I'd like opinions on my proposed rust treatment idea please. I don't want to leave it extended like it is and I don't want to retract it and risk cutting the seal.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on September 09, 2017, 05:36:22 PM
Well done Greg!

I have had success rubbing down the rust with 1200 grit wet-and-dry paper, until the blemish is smooth. Be especially particular to wipe all the grit and rust off thoroughly before retracting it past the seal. Keeping the rubbing localised, reduces the scratching to the chrome plating.

Now that I have discovered Penetrol, I would paint the rust spots after cleaning and de-greasing; Penetrol will stop the rust completely and the regular oil bath past the seal, will also be a big help,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Philthy on September 09, 2017, 06:10:02 PM
Hey Greg

Great stuff.

With that ram its no problem to have it re-chromed. A motorcycle suspension rebuilding service near you will point you in the right direction. We re-chrome front motorcycle forks all the time to the same quality as new. Yes you are right it will destroy or leak as is.

Keep going mate.
Phil
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Philthy on September 09, 2017, 06:11:46 PM
See how well  2000 / 3000 grit oiled wet and dry brings up the ram first.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 09, 2017, 07:05:41 PM
Thanks for that.
I think I have some superfine wet & dry and Penetrol, so will do that first thing in the morning. It would be a huge job to get the ram re-chromed. It must be close 8" in diameter and extends about 2'. Must weigh a ton. Hopefully, it will clean up enough and won't cut the seal.
I wiped the ram down with turps earlier and it took all the dried grease smears off, so only the rust specks left.
There is a weird mark on the surface that I can see and feel, like a slight ridge or bulge, about 40mm long, running around the underside of the ram. It  sort of looks as if the whole ram had been bent, and bulged out in a ripple.  Its smooth and only slight, so I don't think it will be an issue. It's just weird.

I used a toothbrush and turps to clean the dried grease and mud out of the groove around the top of the ram, so I could see the rubber lip of the top seal, and it looks really good. I cleaned all of the grease nipples and pumped some grease in. When I did the one on the top of the main ram, the grease squirted up around the edges of the seal, so might stop any grit getting in. I need to replace most of the grease nipples though, as most screw into the end of the pins that goes right through, with a second nipple on the other side. I found that when I pumped grease in one side, it was going right through and squirting out the nipple on the other side instead of coming out the lube holes in the pin. I tried cleaning them out but I think the spring behind the tiny ball bearing is stuffed. I have a heap of spare ones, but it turns out the truck uses ones with NPT threads and the crane uses ones with BSP threads. Typical. I ordered a pack of 10 off eBay for $15. If I buy them locally, I can get 2 for $7 at Supercheap or pay $5 each for them at the local bearing or industrial supply place. I like to support local places, but that price is just ridiculous.

I'm guessing that the rust on the ram formed after I moved the controls ages back, which let air into the system and allowed the fluid to drain back into the tank, which then overflowed. I pumped 10L out and have it in bottles, so I can put it back in tomorrow, once I refold the arm and check the level.

The next job will be to try to unbolt the winch. It should be a lot easier than on the MK3, as the bolts aren't all rusted up. The bolts are huge, 7/8" with 1-5/16" heads. I have a single spanner that size and a 3/4" drive socket, so it will just be a matter of getting at them.

It was such a great feeling, seeing something actually resembling progress, that I felt like jumping in the truck and tearing around the paddock, doing donuts. I managed to resist that though. Might worry the neigbours.  ;D
I sent loads of pics off to the guys at work and my mate in QLD though. Never anyone around when things go right. If i did something silly though, there would suddenly be a dozen people standing there to watch. :)

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: wfc1 on September 10, 2017, 10:35:30 AM
Hello Greg.    Just thinking about your pto. Is it attached to the gearbox side down low? If it is and it is the usual pto setup, you operate with the gearbox in neutral, if it is mounted remotely or driven from the transfer case then you may need to have it in gear. You may be driving a whole lot of cogs and shafts for nothing which will suck out a bit of power.  Regards, Bruce.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 10, 2017, 01:08:40 PM
The PTO as in the hydraulic pump? The pump is bolted to the drivers side of the actual gearbox, down low.
I run it in first with the transfer case in neutral. I never thought that it might be run off the input side of the gearbox, and so be totally reliant on just the engine revs, not the gear you select.
I'll try running it with the gearbox in neutral next weekend and see what happens. It kind of makes sense though. That way if you accidentally engaged the hydraulic pump while trundling down the highway at 100km/h (yer right  ;D) in 5th gear, you wouldn't blow the guts out of the pump.

The biggest issue is that I have yet to find anyone who used these trucks with the cranes and knew the correct operating and maintenance procedures. STDDIVER got onto a guy at the place that used to supply them, but the guy never got back to him, as far as I know.
We're just making it up as we go along.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: wfc1 on September 10, 2017, 01:51:13 PM
Sounds like pto and pump all in one as per the normal procedure. If that is the case gearbox in neutral is the norm. Yes you can run them engaged by accident while driving if you don't fix the bulb in the warning light to let you know it is engaged, and yes you can destroy them and then you have to pay a lot of money to buy a new one and no I am not going to say how I know this.  Regards, Bruce.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 10, 2017, 02:04:26 PM
Ok so this morning I got back into it again.
I found my 1500 grit wet & dry and used that, dipping it in a bit of hydraulic oil now and then. It worked well, without going too deep.
I found it easiest to work by feel, not by eye. When you first run your finger over the rust speck, you feel it catch at the tread on your finger. Once it has been polished a bit with the wet & dry in oil, you can still see it as a non-shiny spot, but it doesn't catch any more. You can still feel it, but as a tiny depression, so that shouldn't hurt the seal.
Right at the top of the ram, I found a band of rough brown stuff, about 3/4" wide, in a ring around the ram. After just making a mess with oil and the wet & dry, I realised it was a band of dried, crusty grease from just under the seal. From what I can tell, the actual ram must have a seal at the top and then a space that gets filled with grease, and then another seal to wipe any dirt and grit off as the ram retracts.
The ring of dried grease came off with a bit of turps and was clean and shiny underneath.

After I finished polishing all the rust specks off, I cleaned the ram down with turps and wiped it down with a clean rag dipped in hydraulic oil. I could feel some grooves and odd little bulges and ripples on the surface, but they were hard to get pictures of.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-5FtnvxX/0/056ccab5/M/i-5FtnvxX-M.jpg)  (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-ZFKSSGX/0/cbcc5b91/M/i-ZFKSSGX-M.jpg)

There are a couple of spots like the first pic. I think it is from the big hook on the second jib hitting it. As I was folding the crane away I noticed that it lined up. The second pic is the weird bulge or ripple I mentioned earlier. Neither have any sharp edges, so I am hoping they don't damage the seal. Time will tell, I suppose.

With that all cleaned up, I started on the 4 big bolts holding the winch frame in place. What a pain in the bum. It took about 3 hours to get them all out.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Rg2QXG2/0/372a13db/M/i-Rg2QXG2-M.jpg)

As you can see in the pic above, the frame is made of 2 sections of angle iron. The bolt shown in the pic holds the winch end frame to the angle iron and screws into a steel thread insert in the aluminium section, sort of like a Time-Sert. This bolt blocks access to the one below, shown removed, which holds the angle iron to the bracket below and has a self-locking nut on it, like a large nylock. The bracket is riveted to the chassis rail. I was able to remove the bolt into the aluminium end frame with a big breaker bar and length of pipe. The aluminium oxidises and really grips it tightly. I remembered this from when I pulled the winch from the MK3 apart.
With that bolt out, I was able to get the breaker bar on the lower bolt and lock the nut with a big spanner, which kept falling off. Would be so much easier with a helper. The passenger's side is a bit different, as the bolt I needed to do wasn't blocked by another one. The front one came out easily but the rear one was a real problem. It took me longer to get it out that the other 3 combined. The nut underneath is obscured by the torque drive box. You can't get a spanner or socket onto it. I used a couple of big screwdrivers and later a tire lever to wedge in between the flat of the nut and the side of the torque drive housing. To do this, I had to squeeze in between the toolbox and the forward rear tire. Then, when the screwdriver fell out. I had to squeeze back out and crawl under to pick it up. I think that when I put it back in, I might weld a piece of flat bar across one of the faces on the nut so it can't turn. Actually, it might pay to do that to them all. The winch has to come out through the top anyway, as it is blocked from dropping down by the transfer case.

To lift the winch out, I will need to loop a sling around the drive end and onto the hook of the crane, and then run another around the cable drum end and hook the hand winch to that. The torque drive unit won't clear the chassis rail if I try lifting straight up, as the base of it flares out. If I lift the winch drum end a few inches first, it will clear the chassis rail on the driver's side and let me swing the winch enough to clear the other side.

I would have liked to get it out this weekend, but I need someone on the ground to guide it while I lift it with the crane. I also need to borrow a few slings from work and get my trailer back so I can lower it straight into that. I was going to drain the oil out this morning, but it's started blowing a gale and I don't want the oil going everywhere. If it dies down I'll do it this afternoon. It's going to be interesting to see what's in the oil. I'm betting lots of brass shavings.

On another note, has anyone here had knee replacements? If so, how restricting is it to your everyday activities? I'm finding that after a day of climbing in and out of the truck, crawling over the frame and underneath it that I'm getting sharp pains in my knees, sort of on the insides where they would touch if you press your legs together. If I get any pressure to the side, I get a sudden sharp pain and often totally lose control of the joint, as if there is no muscle connected and usually results in me being on the ground. Both of my grandparents had their knees replaced, my mum had hers done, but they were all a fair bit older than me. I'm only 46. Damn, that sounds old when I say it out loud.  ;D
I know I have to get them checked out by a doctor, but I've been putting it off while I decide about private health insurance. So damn hard to work out which deal is best for me, affordable and without hidden issues.
If I get mine replaced, I am worried that I won't be able to do the things that I am able to now, like climbing around the truck, crawling around on the ground and loads of walking over uneven ground, which I have to do as part of my work.

What do you all think?

ps. Bruce, what warning light is this? I don't recall seeing one on the dash anywhere. I know there is a wire coming out of the pressure gauge next to the crane controls, but I thought that was an overload protection thing, hooked up to work the same as the winch overload engine cutout.

Oh, something else I noticed today after folding the crane away was that the original engine water temp gauge on the dash is now working and agrees with the aftermarket VDO one someone fitted. It's almost like it is fixing itself, like Carrie.  :o

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: wfc1 on September 10, 2017, 03:02:36 PM
The inter probably has no warning light. It was one of my crane trucks that I blew the pto/pump because of not replacing a simple bulb. It was an example of what can happen if you don't disengage the pto before driving.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 10, 2017, 04:30:29 PM
Ah, thanks for that.
It would be hard to accidentally pull this one on. It's a T-handle down beside and behind the driver's seat. I think the handbrake lever actually blocks it when it's down, but not 100% sure on that. It would make sense, as you would want the handbrake on if you are standing on the passenger's seat working the crane, with the transfer case or gearbox in neutral. It would take some interesting acrobatics to get back inside and across the engine cover to the driver's seat to get to the brake pedal when you start rolling away. Don't want to try that, myself.
It takes a hell of a lot of pulling to get the pump to engage, but that might just be from a lack of lubrication on the shaft attached to the handle. The cable further down is soaked in oil, mud & crud from the years of hydraulic leaks, so it should be lubed well.

The wind has dropped a bit, so I went out and drained the oil out of the winch. First I had to remove the little driveshaft that runs from the transfer case to the winch torque converter, as it is directly below the drain bung. I will clean and repaint this shaft before refitting, but no sense getting it covered in oil and then have to handle it. The uni joints seem to be really good, no grating or movement in them when articulated, but I will decide whether or not to replace them once it is all cleaned up.

What idiot decided using plumbing fittings for drain bungs was a good idea? Its a square headed soft metal cast bung, that takes a 1/2" spanner. The issue is that a 1/2" spanner is too short and narrow to get a decent grip on the flats of the bung. If you use a bigger shifter, you run the risk of rounding the head off as it is very soft metal. In this case, some muppet had already done that, so I finally got it out with a 18" set of Stilsens.
I think the bung must be a tapered thread. I replaced the ones in the 2 rear diffs with solid ones as the originals were hollow. I drilled a recess into the new bungs and epoxied a rare earth magnet in, so any metal bits should stay there. I'll do the same to this bung also.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-jsTTh9F/0/35db3099/L/i-jsTTh9F-L.jpg)

The oil was a lovely pumpkin colour. Not a really strong gear oil smell, so it might be just from age and a bit of moisture.
The winch uses the same lightweight gear oil as the transfer case and gearbox, and I noticed that the new stuff had very little smell.
The heavy oil in the diffs really reeks, and it is hard to get the stink out of any clothing that it gets on.
I let it sit in the drain pan for an hour or so and slowly drained it into a clean drum.
There was a single piece of metal in the bottom, about 3/4" long, thin and twisted like a piece of swarf from a drill, but that was all.
If the worm drive or the gear had stripped, I would expect a lot more metal. It will be interesting to see exactly what has happened inside, when I get it apart.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on September 10, 2017, 07:35:11 PM
By jingo you are getting on with it  :D!

I think the gearbox, transfer box and winch may have had OMD600 in them, which I think may be similar to EP90, the stinky stuff! What does the lubrication plate on the dash say?

I haven't had knee replacements yet, but but when they get painful I lubricate them with 100% emu oil, it cures any inflammation and I think it works on my arthritic neck as well when I drink about 10ml of it. Lot cheaper than new knees, so worth a try first. Speaking of expense, don't waste money at a GP until after you have been to a good physiotherapist, they know heaps more than a GP and they will do a decent diagnosis for you as well. The GP is needed for referral to a specialist – what a rort!

Looks like good news for the guts on the winch  :D

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 11, 2017, 08:30:53 AM
The gearbox, transfer case and winch all use OMD-330, which my drum of Castrol TFC-450 will cover nicely.
The axles, power dividers and steering box all use OEP-600, which is thick smelly stuff.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-qs4BDs4/0/b5882580/M/i-qs4BDs4-M.jpg)

As for my knees, I rubbed loads of Rapigel into them last night and they are pretty good this morning, unless I twist around or bend them sideways. I'll be spending tomorrow and Wednesday scrambling around in the bush looking at rock formations on a Geology for Foresters course, so will see how they hold up.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: johnp on September 11, 2017, 10:27:51 AM
Good on you Greg,you are steadily ploughing your way through all these jobs.
I havent had much time to get back on to mine lately but am still lookjng forward to getting in to it,im 58 and my knees dont stand up to entry and exiting inter cabs that well either the design calls more for 20 yr old superfit young blokes.
I dread the thought (at my age) of having to leap out of the "doorless" inters in an emergency like they did in Vietnam,i would probably end up in traction in hospital!


Cheers   John
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on September 24, 2017, 06:33:20 PM
The weather has been terrible lately. I haven't been able to do much at all.
I got a pack of 1/8" BSP grease nipples in the post, so switched out most of the ones I could get at with the hoist folded up.
I'll do the rest when the weather is fine enough to lift the winch out.
I found that 2 of the ones I removed were actually the wrong thread, and were only just screwed in a couple of turns.
Most of the ones I replaced had actually let grease squirt back out, so at $15 for 10, it's a cheap fix.
I also got a new pressure gauge for the hydraulic system.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-df3Qv75/0/606efc13/M/i-df3Qv75-M.jpg)

I tried polishing the old one with 1500 grit wet & dry to see if it was recoverable, but it is some sort of plastic and had yellowed right through.
The needle is sitting on 500 psi, even with the gauge disconnected. The new gauge was only $50 and is oil filled with a glass front.
I will make up a cap from a pvc plumbing fitting to cover and protect it.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 01, 2017, 03:48:49 PM
I got the winch out this morning.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-zZpcmbp/0/d0a7b067/M/i-zZpcmbp-M.jpg)

I looped the tree protector strop out of my recovery kit around the cable drum a couple of times and it lifted straight out, no problem at all.
I removed the split pin and castle nut off the end of the main shaft, just in case that would help free it up.
I tried to remove the big bolts holding the 2 side rails to the winch body and end frame, but even with the breaker bar and length of pipe for extra leverage, I couldn't get them to budge.
Time for the big guns!

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-RdQH9vK/0/3165d38a/M/i-RdQH9vK-M.jpg)

The torque multiplier soon broke them free. With the side rails removed, I was able to rotate the end frame left and right about an inch, but that was all.
From the feel of it, I was rotating the end frame and the main shaft. I realised that the end frame was seized on the shaft, even though there was a brass bush in there.
I was able to force some grease in, but it took a lot of pressure. I remember from the winch off the MK3 that the brass bush has a spiral groove running around the inside face, so the grease gets spread around.
I don't think this has been greased in a long time, and the old grease has dried out and hardened.
When I pulled the other winch apart, I had to lift the whole winch up, support it from underneath and move my hydraulic press over it.
With a few bits of steel to lock it under the press, I was able to push the main shaft out of the aluminium end frame. The brass bush stayed on the steel shaft.
I heated the bush up with the LPG/Oxy set and loads of smoke came out as the old grease melted and burnt, then it just fell off.
It was just the old grease sticking it to the shaft. I'm betting it is the same thing with this one.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-DmfpZcf/0/fbc94970/M/i-DmfpZcf-M.jpg)

After work one day during the week, I will drag the oxy gear out into the paddock and try heating the bush up.
If that doesn't work, I'll have to try and get the press out there.

With the end frame off, I should be able to use the crane to lift the cable drum off the shaft.
Even though there were no metal shavings in the gear oil, I think either the worm shaft or drive gear is damaged.
I am able to turn the input shaft and the drum starts to turn, maybe an inch or so, then seems to slip and then start turning backwards about the same distance,
before doing the same thing again. This is with the dog clutch in the engaged position.
With all the smacking around with the lead shot hammer it got, the engage/disengage yoke seems to have freed up a bit.
I was able to move the actuating arm to the disengaged position.
I still can't easily turn the drum though. Even belting the end frame with the lead hammer only turns it an inch or so.
Once I get the end frame and cable drum off, I can undo the bolts on the worm drive gear and remove it from the shaft, then remove the shaft from the main box.

The main problem is that everything is so heavy. If I could get it down to the house the press is right there and the workbench puts everything at a good height to work on.
I was going to put it in the back of the ute and work on it there, but I need the ute empty for work tomorrow.
The crane on the truck is the only way I can lift it, as I estimate the winch, cable and chain drive box must be around 300kg.
If I drive it down to the house, I can't get it out of the ute without rolling it off the side. If I got it off, I couldn't get it up on the workbench anyway.
Oh well, smaller pieces will make it easier to handle.

On another topic, with the winch out, I was able to get at the 2 rusted-through air pipes that run down to the tractor protection valve.
The way they shaped them forces the pipes to push down against the bottom of the chassis rail. This area was a solid layer of dried mud, so I'm not surprised that they rusted through.
I noticed that on the passenger's side, the main brake line that runs to the back wheels is shaped the same and is also very rusty.
I'll replace it while it's easy to get at, with the coated stuff I used for the other brake pipes.

While playing with the crane today, I was able to replace the last 3 grease nipples that I couldn't get at last time.
I gave all of them a good grease and found one down in the frame base that I hadn't noticed before.
It's a right-angled one and is blocked solid. I'll pull it out and soak it in turps for a few days and see if it frees up.
I also noticed that the new pressure gauge isn't working. No matter what I do with the controls, it doesn't twitch off 0.
I'll have to pull the box below it apart and check it out. There is some sort of pressure overload sensor in there that works like the winch overload and cuts the engine.
I wonder if that is where the odd switch came from that I found rolling around under the driver's seat?

I must have climbed in and out of the truck over a dozen times this morning. Now my knees are locking up when I move after sitting a while. Fun.
I'll post up more pics as I get things apart.

Greg.

Edit. Oh just remembered. I ran the truck with the main gearbox in neutral today, and the hydraulic pump worked fine, so it is powered from the input side of the box, not the output. Thanks to Bruce, wfc1, for that tip.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 04, 2017, 06:04:14 PM
I got a bit done this afternoon.
Got home and dug out the oxy gear and dragged it out into the paddock.
I kept the heat on the aluminium section around the brass bush, trying to heat that area and not the steel shaft. Didn't really work, but the old dried grease started smoking and bubbling pretty quickly.
While heating, I tapped the end frame left and right with the lead hammer and it quickly loosened up. Once it felt really loose, I grabbed the ends of the frame with some heavy rags and lifted while twisting. It slowly lifted off.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-t8ztf6k/0/21b3b367/L/i-t8ztf6k-L.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-rLKC6Kb/0/02475b7c/M/i-rLKC6Kb-M.jpg)

As you can see, the brass bush is in pretty good condition. Most of that discolouration you can see is the old dried grease.
The shaft is still pretty good. Once it has cooled I will see what that black section is. I suspect it is more dried grease, because if it was rust, it would have scored the softer metal of the bush as I twisted it around and lifted it off.
Once it is all repaired, primed and painted, I will give the inside of the bush a light hone and polish with fine wet & dry.

I tried turning the cable drum on the shaft, but I couldn't get it to move. There is almost nothing to get hold of and the edges are rusty and sharp. The drum also has a brass bush in it where it runs on the shaft.
I gave it a wipe over and heated it a bit too. The grease bubbled and squirted out straight away, so I think it will come off ok. I will see if I can borrow the big hydraulic 3 arm puller from the guys next door at work. The other option is to wrap the strops around it and try lifting it off with the crane.
With a bit of luck and good weather, I might have it all apart this weekend. I have to mow also. The grass around the truck is up to my knees. Roundup is easier, quicker and longer lasting, but I don't think the landlord would approve. Oh well.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 08, 2017, 05:37:28 PM
Lots of pics in today's post.  :)

The weather isn't the best, with light scattered showers, but it held off just long enough. I cleaned the dried grease off the end of the winch shaft, then polished the rust away with some wet & dry.
I wiped a smear of grease over the exposed metal and wrapped the lifting strop around the cable drum.
I was going to lift the whole thing onto the back of the ute, to keep it all out of the grass and put it at a convenient height to work on.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-vbQp66N/0/9f44850a/L/i-vbQp66N-L.jpg)

Didn't quite make it.
I got it to the height that you see in the pic, and the thing came apart all on its own. Landed neatly and nothing was damaged.
The cable drum got put out of the way for now. I forgot to take a pic of the dog clutch end of the drum, but there wasn't a mark on it. The engagement blocks are in perfect condition, with no burrs or chips.

I re-rigged the strop around the winch housing and put it on the back of the ute for further inspection. The crane makes it so easy.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-v2b3ww4/0/fb1da120/M/i-v2b3ww4-M.jpg)

Ok, think I can see the problem.  :o
After I drove the actuator rod out, I should have been able to lift the dog clutch and actuator yoke off the spline on the winch shaft, but it wouldn't move.
I tried using 2 tire levers to pop it off the spline, but it popped the entire shaft out. That works for me.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-J6Qqksb/0/ff7f05de/M/i-J6Qqksb-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-BjzjgJF/0/7b02b4b0/M/i-BjzjgJF-M.jpg)

The busted worm gear chewed on the inside of the housing a bit, but not too deep. I'll give it a bit of a clean-up so no aluminium shavings come off later, once it's rebuilt. There isn't a single mark, chip or scratch on the worm shaft.
I cleaned the pieces of the worm gear up and took the pics below.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-P6KJNRR/0/291f17f5/M/i-P6KJNRR-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-cGVJ9Fw/0/5d008853/M/i-cGVJ9Fw-M.jpg)

One of the bolts sheared and another was very bent. The rest are good, but the brass/bronze has stretched and torn away around them.
The second pic shows the back of the worm gear spider. The bolt holes are all stretched out of shape. It took a hell of a lot of force to do this damage.
I'm glad the cable was out the back and not wrapped around to the front, as it would have really twisted things up. I can see why it was able to spread the thick steel plates of the rear fairlead assembly when it pulled the thimble into the pulleys.
This tells me that the overload system is definitely not working. I'll pull the chain drive box apart and give the whole thing a full overhaul.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-JrRnMHC/0/3ef0e60e/M/i-JrRnMHC-M.jpg)

I had to tap the dog clutch off the spline. It was stuck pretty tightly. After cleaning everything up, it looks like the spline segments in the sliding clutch part are actually twisted.
I can slide it onto the shaft and it starts easily enough, but only engages about 2cm of the spline before locking up. I turned it over and it only goes on about half a cm before binding.
You can't really see the damage in the pic. I suppose the huge force put on the clutch drive system when they overloaded it must have twisted the spline in the sliding bit.
Luckily, I checked the one out of the MK3 and it slides smoothly on the shaft/spline, so I can use that.

I'll pull the chain drive unit apart during the week and give the whole winch housing a good clean up.
Modern seals all round, some fresh paint and a new felt strip where the cable drum seals against the main housing and it will be ready to go back together.
I'll have to check the overload mechanism, but it may be a wiring issue between the winch and the cab. I don't have a wiring diagram showing the winch overload system, but it should be easy enough to trace.

I'll post more as things get done.

Greg.

Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on October 09, 2017, 09:17:20 AM
Good work cobber!

Shame about the broken parts – can you get replacement bits?

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 09, 2017, 11:27:58 AM
I have the winch from the MK3 in pieces and cleaned up that I can use for spares.
I'll use the brass/bronze gear, the spider that bolts into it and the sliding clutch part.
I just ordered the replacement seals and found a company still selling the micro switch that activates the overload protection system, so I can replace that if it turns out to be broken. Apparently it can be adjusted, as in preload, so it may be ok, just not set up properly.

The main housing, worm drive and chain drive unit are still assembled and in the back of the work ute. I have to work out how to get it out and around the back to the work bench after work today. First thing will be a heavy duty degreasing, after I pull the brake band out. Years of oil and dirt are caked on the outside. I'll scrape off what I can and give the whole thing a spray with diesel. That seems to soften it up.

I'll post updates and pics as I go.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Bluebell One-eight on October 09, 2017, 06:20:32 PM
Hi Greg the first thing to check is the switch these were notorious for failing. The ingress of fine dust and water corroded the internals and no more protection. Also check and see if the brass worm wheel is the same as the MK3, the winch drive has the opposite rotation because it is turned around the "other way " when compared to the MK3. The RPS should set the record straight on this one. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 09, 2017, 08:11:56 PM
I pulled the cover off the brake band box this afternoon and gave it a squirt of penetrant into the keyway, to help loosen it up on the spline. I remember the one on the MK3 winch was a real pain to get off.
The brake band is in really good condition, so I need to keep oil and stuff off it. There is a sort of locating sleeve that is attached to it that goes through the housing. The bolt you turn to adjust the drag goes through it.
I got the circlip off but its seized in the housing. I gave it a squirt too, so hopefully I can get it out tomorrow.

You mention dust and water corroding the switch. Isn't the chain box filled with oil? It has a drain bung at the bottom and when I had it laid over in the ute, I definitely had oil leak out of the breather, which was the lowest point.
I suppose oil from the main box could have seeped past the seal between the main box and chain box. New seals will fix that.

I have the old shattered gear wheel at work, so can't visually compare it to the one off the MK3. I looked it up in the MK4 RPS and also the F1 RPS and they show different manufacturer codes and part numbers, but list them both as "Gear, worm wheel, RH". I looked up the manufacturer codes, just in case. The one for the MK4 was Z0218, Olding GH & Sons. The one from the F1 was 61465, which is Garwood/Feller. I'd say the companies merged or got bought out at some point.
When I tried looking up the actual NSN numbers, the one for the F1, 3020-00-217-9772, came up as still available. The NSN from the MK4 RPS, 3830-00-217-9772, doesn't exist but is almost identical to the newer F1 code. I believe it is a typo as 3020 means Gears, Sprockets, Pulleys & Transmission Chain and 3830 is Truck & Tractor Attachments.
What I should have done first off is look at the damn worm shaft, as it turns out it has the exact same manufacturer code, NSN and part number in both RPS's, so I should be good.  ;D

Actually, both winches turn the same way. The MK3/4 is driven from the front and sits further towards the back axle. The winch on the 6x6 variants is driven from the back via the chain box, but both the prop shaft and worm shaft both spin the same direction. It sits right up close to the transfer case to make room for the extra axle.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 10, 2017, 06:53:13 PM
I managed to get the brake band out and got the brake wheel off, after a bit of a struggle. There's not much room between the wheel and the housing for the arms of the puller to get into. When I got the brake box off, I found signs that the old seal behind it had been leaking. I have new seals from when I was going to rebuild the MK3 winch, so I won't need to wait on those.

I took the cover off the chain box and found there is oil in it.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-K4BbtKb/0/96cad93f/M/i-K4BbtKb-M.jpg)

You can just make out the level of it on the back of the plate. I estimate it to hold about two cups of oil.
I went through the F1 User Handbook and finally found it uses OMD 110, so basically engine oil. I'll have to make a new gasket for it.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-PBzq7fq/0/df2f5c66/M/i-PBzq7fq-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-MgPZjnr/0/2644f724/M/i-MgPZjnr-M.jpg)

As you can see, there seems to be a fair bit of slack in the chain. I think its a bit stretched, as some of the links are a bit stiff when they come off the sprockets, but there were no shavings and the oil was clear.

I'm going to pull the input flange off and replace the oil seal, but I'll leave the lower sprocket and torque assembly behind it. There doesn't seem to be any play or roughness in the bearings.
I'll slip the top sprocket off tomorrow and see if I can unbolt the chain box from the winch housing. They are big socket head bolts, which was a surprise. Seems a bit modern for this old winch.  ;D

I opened the cover over the overload switch and found it was clean and dry. No sign of there ever being moisture or dust in there. I checked the micro switch with the multimeter and it works. Looks like the issue is in the wiring between the winch and whatever cuts out the engine, so I'll have to trace it back.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Bluebell One-eight on October 11, 2017, 10:46:49 PM
Hi Greg looks like a wiring problem, check that any earth connections are intact too. The Garwood Olding  situation came about because of the local content rules that were in place when the trucks were built. Garwood was an overseas mob ( US ) I think and Oldings made the winches here under license. On the subject of rotation, the winches turn in opposite directions because the winch in  6 X 6 is turned around. If you look at a vehicle that is moving forward from the R/H side the wheels rotate CLOCKWISE, and if you turn it around and look from the left side the wheels rotate ANTICLOCKWISE. In a virtual sense you are driving the worm shaft from the opposite end. If you look at the winch brake housing you will find that there are two holes for the brake adjuster bolt. One hole is for the 6x6 and the one on the opposite side for 4x4. This is because the the brake band is applied by the rotation of the worm shaft. If you install the brake band the wrong way then the lining will get burnt when the cable is being winched in.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on October 13, 2017, 03:57:06 PM
Garfield A Wood was a famous speedboat racer and industrialist of the 20th century.The winches came from the Mead Morrison divn ,of Boston,which was bought in the 30s.During WW2 they made millions of winches for trucks, tractors ,ships etc.G.H.Olding and Son were Australian agents for both the winches and the sweepers.The Olding winches in the ACCOs were good winches,and Ive seldom seen one damaged,unless it was filled with water and run without oil.Incidentally,NEVER us any kind of EP oil in a bronze gear winch,it will wreck the gear.Theres winch bits ,including gears and ropes in the containers at my other yard,but my knees are so bad,I cant look thru the stuff.Regards John.  ............Incidentally,I have seen a few variations in construction,some had the mainshaft splined at the gear mount. ,and the worm can also be separate from the shaft,with a similar involute spline.I ve have used the mainshafts for big bits of good steel,theyre fairly soft and machine easily.Possibly 4140 HT.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 13, 2017, 05:15:39 PM
Thanks all.
The dramas continue. I took the chain off this afternoon, with the aim of removing the sprocket that is on the end of the winch worm shaft.
I was able to get a socket on the bolt head that goes through the collar of the sprocket and into the main shaft, and it screwed out easily. Unfortunately.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-7PkM25H/0/6b52a58e/M/i-7PkM25H-M.jpg)

As you can see, it has sheared off, just down below the last thread.
The problem is, the sprocket has slipped about 1/8th of a turn on the shaft. You can see the smeared metal on the end of the bolt where it has been rubbing on the shaft.
I put the brake wheel back on the other end of the shaft and locked it up, but I can't rotate the sprocket to line up the hole with the snapped bolt. I can't move it at all.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Mmfc2Xb/0/d40f1798/M/i-Mmfc2Xb-M.jpg)

As the removed bolt seems to have been running on the shaft, I can't understand why the damn sprocket wont come off the shaft.
I have the puller wound up so tight that I am worried I will snap the pivot bolt in my 1/2" breaker bar or split the socket on the head of the 3 arm puller.
I left it loaded up and will pull out the oxy gear in the morning and try heating the collar a bit and see if it lets go.
Another option might be to pull the 4 bolts out that hold the chain box housing to the winch body and try making up something to fit in the gap that I could suspend the whole thing from if I put it in the press.
The collar fits through the hole in the chain box and the back face of the sprocket would lay flat against the back of the chain box, but it will be really difficult to get the whole thing in the press in a way that the pressure is applied evenly.
The last thing I need is to crack the back out of the box.

On another topic, I have a new toy to fix up and play with.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/General/n-8PbcjV/i-9ZBnB7S/0/b0142933/L/i-9ZBnB7S-L.jpg)

I have to get a new pressure gauge and a maybe a rebuild kit for the pressure washer head, but this thing should help make short work of the caked on grease and grime on the truck.
I found a manual online and it can produce 80° water at 2600 psi at the nozzle, or steam at 130° if I get a different spear and tip. It runs on 240v and diesel for the burner. Should be fun if it doesn't explode.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Diana Alan on October 13, 2017, 07:39:09 PM
Penrite make a Mild EP oil specifically for gearboxes with yellow metals.  The big problem (or was) is that they stopped selling it in 5 litre bottles and you had to get it in 1 litre bottles.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 13, 2017, 08:10:48 PM
Castrol TFC 450 is safe to use for the gearbox, transfer case and winch.
It meets the specs for OMD 330 and I know for a fact that Restless Rover used it in his 4 trucks for many years with no issues.
The product data sheet states that it is safe on copper based alloys such as bushes and seals.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Bluebell One-eight on October 13, 2017, 09:02:47 PM
HI Greg I think you will find that the hot water will make a big difference in removing the grime. Have you removed the pin that secures the sprocket to the worm shaft? If the sprocket has rotated it could mean the pin is partly sheared, which really complicates things. Try driving it out if you can get a punch in there. The amount destruction is unbelievable. good luck 
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on October 14, 2017, 12:49:35 AM
The sprocket is keyed on,Ive not long had the sprocket off my big Leyland,which has a 6x6 winch without the dropbox.Its chain driven from a hydraulic motor.It breaks 5/8 wire with the motor idling,without any effect on the winch.  Which make me wonder what has happened to yours.It looks as though the key has sheared and the sprocket spun on the worm.Which has probably welded the two together.And broken the gear.It seems impossible,because 5/8 wire breaks at about 15 ton,and the winch is rated at 10,and easily able to take double that with 3/4 wire rope......Incidentally,I pulled the sprocket to replace a leaking seal,nothing more.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on October 14, 2017, 09:57:53 AM
Have you tried whacking the head of the puller-bolt with a heavy hammer when it is under tension? This will often allow tight parts to start moving.

However; I suspect that when the bolt broke, a sharp point remained and it has scored a groove inside the sprocket, this means that you are trying to pull the bolt end through solid steel. Perhaps your best chance, is to keep trying to realign the sprocket with the broken thread and then use a left-hand twist drill to try and unwind it; or use a RH twist drill and try to cut off any metal sitting above the shaft.

Good luck; I have been in similar fixes and managed to get out of them eventually,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 14, 2017, 11:31:03 AM
Thanks all, for the suggestions.

Its not exactly a pin. It looks like a bolt that has had most of the thread machined off, leaving just enough to hold it in the sprocket collar. Probably similar to the shear pins from the MK3's but without the pinched waist.
The hole doesn't go right through the collar. It probably goes right through the shaft, but the broken bit can't be tapped through until I get the sprocket off. I am thinking that when it sheared, a bit was still sticking up and has gouged a groove around the inside of the collar, stopping it slipping off the shaft.
The sprocket is not keyed on the shaft. Its the exact same shaft as in the MK3 winches, with a woodruff key on the end with the brake wheel, and a hole through the shaft on the other end that the sprocket fits onto. Imagine the shaft, brake wheel and drive flange (sprocket in this case) from the MK3 but pulled out and put in the other way round.
The brake wheel is facing the front of the truck and the drive flange/chain drive sprocket is at the back.
I just got home and got some chilli plants planted, so will go work on the winch now. Really windy today, which makes heating things tricky.
I'll try giving the puller bolt a good whack and see what happens. I left it under tension last night but the truck fairies didn't come along and pop it off for me.  ;D

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on October 14, 2017, 01:16:52 PM
Sorry for the misinformation.Its 25 years since I fitted the winch to the tilt tray,but I do clearly remember cutting the keyway in the sprocket and driving it on.I also think I must have rearranged the ball bearings on the worm for thrust the opposite way.So I may have cut a keyway in the wormshaft at the same time.The plain shaft with a 3/8" thru hole is certainly standard Garwood practice.The Mk3 had a small hole in the opposite side to drive out a broken pin with a punch.Most drilled the flange thru and used a HT bolt.These Olding winches were also used in large numbers by the various electricity authorities,often mounted on Bedfords 4x4s or 1600 Inters. I saw one on a float once where the wire had bitten into the drum like a choked chicken from continuous overloading. I used to sell every one i could lay my hands on for tiltrays.A far better winch than any other in the same class.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 14, 2017, 02:47:10 PM
Ok I've had enough of this thing for the day.
I'm not getting anywhere. I had the puller loaded up as far as I could go with the 1/2" breaker bar.
I heated the collar as evenly as I could with the oxy, I belted the end of the puller with the big hammer and nothing budged.
I put the brake wheel back on and tried to turn the sprocket back to align the hole with the broken pin but I can't get any load on the brake wheel end. There's nothing to grip. I put 2 fat bolts through the spokes of the wheel and put a bar through them but it just slips.

Finally, I put a length of pipe on the breaker bar. All that did was stretch the holes in the metal straps that link the arms to the puller body until one tore through.
I switched the straps off my smaller but stronger puller and cranked it right up, but finally it sheared the main threaded rod.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-FHh2zvf/0/e3dede73/M/i-FHh2zvf-M.jpg)

I don't think I could get a bigger puller in between the sprocket teeth and the sides of the housings.
I took the bolts out that hold the chain box to the main housing so I could get a clear look at the hole and shaft. It looks good. The threads are fine. I can see the shaft and there are a couple of minor score lines on it where the end of the pin was touching, but no sign of any deep gouges from a protruding broken pin.
I'm out of ideas. I'll take it to work Monday and see if the guys there have any suggestions.

I know when I get the damn thing out, the first thing I will do is drill right through the collar so I can put a bolt right through. That way it should take twice the amount of force to shear and I should be able to drive any pin bits out.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 17, 2017, 07:37:43 PM
Ha! I beat it.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-PsbBGsN/0/b7015f2f/M/i-PsbBGsN-M.jpg)

I was just about asleep Sunday night and realised I was doing it all wrong.
Instead of trying to pull on the sprocket off the shaft, I should be pushing the shaft out of the sprocket.

Yesterday I got home and removed the 4 bolts that hold the chain box to the winch housing.
That gave me room to get a big screwdriver in and pop the seal out. Well, lever it out, piece by piece.
I was then able to get in there and remove the big circlip that holds the bearings in place. Then I ran out of light.

This afternoon I used a wooden block and a 4lb hammer on the brake end of the shaft to drive the whole worm shaft and beatings out through the chain drive end.
This went pretty quickly, until I had to try to line up the far end bearing with the front end hole, while tapping on the shaft to get it started.
On the second tap, the bearing separated, ball bearings rolling all over the place. Oh well. It made it easy to get the shaft out.

I gave the worm shaft, bearings and the sprocket on the end a good degrease to make it easier to handle. I put it in the press with the press plates under the top bearing. I would have liked to have them pushing directly on the back of the sprocket collar, but the gap between the collar and bearing was too narrow.
I was able to find an impact socket just a tiny bit smaller than the hole in the sprocket so I used it to press the shaft out. I was a bit worried when the gauge on the press showed 17 tonnes, but with a bit of heat on the collar, it finally started moving. That press has turned out to be one of my most useful buys yet.

With the sprocket and one bearing off, I flipped the worm shaft and quickly pressed off the inner race of the other bearing. I fitted the steel balls back in the race and put the bearing back together. I wrapped it in a rag and used my block of wood and hammer and smacked it back into place. It feels a bit rumbly when I spin it, but so does the other one. I'll look into getting new ones, but from memory they were ridiculously expensive when I looked at getting them for the MK3 winch.
I'll find out tomorrow. I can always use the ones from the other winch.

With the sprocket off, the other half of the shear pin fell out of the hole through the shaft.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Lt77RPw/0/a1f129b1/M/i-Lt77RPw-M.jpg)

I'll have to machine up a new one. I think I'll have to make it from a socket head bolt as if I use a normal bolt, the head will be too large and I won't be able to get a socket on it as there is only a small gap between the bolt head and the back of the chain box. If you look at the pic above, you can see the head is much smaller than you usually see on bolts this diameter.
With everything apart, I gave everything a final clean up and got some pics. As it is all shiny silver, it's hard to get the camera to focus properly and the flash washes out some of the finer detail.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-PPwdrfj/0/09c296da/M/i-PPwdrfj-M.jpg)

You can see where the metal has been smeared when the bolt sheared. You can also see the marks where the burrs inside the sprocket collar scraped the shaft when it came off.
I think it will clean up ok. I'll put it in the lathe and take a really light skim across it to remove the raised bits. A bit of a clean up with emery paper and it should be fine.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-z8Sff55/0/2435a356/M/i-z8Sff55-M.jpg)

This pic is a bit rough. You can see the damage though. As with the shaft, I'll give it a light skim on the lathe to take the burrs off. I'll see what sizes are available in speedi-sleeves, as I could slip one over the worm shaft to take up any slop due to the machining.
I'll also drill right through the sprocket collar so the shear pin can go right through. This doubles the area that it has to shear and will make it easy to get the broken bit out.

I'll do some cleaning up and repainting while the weather stays fine. I still have to replace the air lines that run to the tractor protection valve and clean and repaint the chassis rails before I can refit the winch, so there's no great rush just now.

I'll post some more pics once I get some work done.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on October 17, 2017, 10:28:42 PM
The sprocket has spun and friction welded to the shaft.The weld is very hard,hence the scoring.Probably even carbide tooling wont clean up the melted part.Needs abrasive,oilstone,careful use of a sanding disc is effective,too.Is the brake end the same dia as the drive end.Mine must drive on the brake end.How much are you going to use the winch? Thrust ball bearings are very dear,because they are made to a very high precision so they can be paired.Ive run my press up to max,about 60 tons removing spun ball bearings from shafts,they break free with a bang,then wreck the shaft coming off.If the bearing is cut off with an abrasive disc,no damage save a tiny ring of weld.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on October 18, 2017, 09:23:52 AM
I would resist the temptation to turn it on the lathe as well and do as John says.

Loctite Shaft & Bearing Mount will fill all the score marks and glue the thing back together again.

Well done on getting it apart! Reminds me of when I was trying to press a water pump apart and at 5 tonnes realised I was pressing the wrong way  ::)

Cheers Charlie
Title: Shear Pins
Post by: Mick_Marsh on October 18, 2017, 03:27:20 PM
I made some shear pins up some time ago.
I've been selling them 3 for $50.
Title: Re: Shear Pins
Post by: Ravvin on October 18, 2017, 06:23:44 PM
I made some shear pins up some time ago.
I've been selling them 3 for $50.

Yeah, I know.
I bought 3 remember? :)

These are different. They are supposed to be straight sided and I don't think they are supposed to shear.
In fact, if they do shear, its a right pain to replace them. You have to remove the chain box cover. 18 bolts. You will need a new gasket too.
Then you need to remove the drive chain. Then get the old pin unscrewed and hope you can get the sprocket off without removing the entire winch and then the worm drive. Only then can you get at the other side of the hole through the shaft to drive the broken bit out.

The engine cut out system is supposed to eliminate the need for the shear pins, it's just I think mine has a break in the wiring somewhere.

Another way these pins are different is they have a very small head considering the size of the threaded bit. Not like a regular bolt. These are 5/8" across the flats and the thread seems to be 1/2" UNF. It is 1-11/16" long from the thread to the tip, but the ones I make will go right through the sprocket collar, once I drill the other side through. Double the shear area and easier to tap a broken pin out.
I think these pins may have been turned from a length of 5/8" hexagonal bar. If the head was any bigger, you couldn't get a socket on it as it is very close to the back wall of the chain box.

I ordered replacement bearings today. The ones I took out are really loose and noisy. If anyone ever needs them, ask for 7309 Thrust bearings. Not cheap at $55 each, but they are FAG brand, not the cheaper chinese versions. They should get here Friday.
I will pull the other shaft out of the chain box and check those bearings too. I already have the new seal. The replacement bearings are in stock, if I need them. They are a standard 6207 and a 6207NR, which is the same but has a groove around the outside for a circlip to fit into.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on October 24, 2017, 09:44:57 PM
A bit of damage to the winch is preferable to a chassis like a banana.here and there on this form replacement chassis are mentioned.I bet a weeks pay that winch damage was the cause.On the bare drum you can get about twice the cable tension to pulling on a full drum.Twice the load on the chassis if you pull through to the front of the truck ,as is the normal travel setup.Wasnt restricted to accos either,Ive seen a WW2 Diamond T prime mover with the chassis spread by the winch cable.,and the Kaiser tow truck in my yard had chassis damage and a busted winch/bottom blown out of the gearcase.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on November 01, 2017, 06:47:24 PM
Yep, the truck I looked at in Hobart back when I first got the MK3 had a badly twisted chassis rail on the passenger side, just between the transfer case and winch. I'm betting that was winch-related.

I haven't posted anything in a while, as I have just been doing boring stuff like cleaning and painting.
I got new thrust bearings for the main winch worm shaft and also a pair for the chain drive box. I started putting the chain drive back together but ran into a problem.
The regular guy at the bearing place was busy so I got served by another guy. I hadn't removed the seal from the input flange on the chain case, but I had the measurements from the manual.
The seal I needed measured 2" x 3.006" x 1/2". They didn't have anything in stock and he said it was an odd size that he would have to look up and order.
A few days later he called and said it was in. I picked it up and it was a National seal, #410085. Steel cased, double lipped.
I pressed it into the housing, which didn't take much effort, and then made up a new gasket and refitted the housing and seal to the chain drive housing, with a good coat of Loctite gasket goop.
Once it was dry, I fitted a Speedi-sleeve to the drive flange, as it was pitted where the old seal had sat. I refitted the flange on the spline and then realised that when I turned it, the seal was turning in the housing.
I removed the flange and found I could turn the seal all the way around, so the housing wasn't out of shape, the seal was just too small. I was even able to work it right out of the housing by turning it while lifting.
I measured the seal and it was 3.002". I looked up the part number and it agreed.
I can't measure the inside of the housing unless I remove it from the chain drive box, which means I have to make a new gasket and clean all the goop off. I measured the old seal, which was a GACO MI 1933001/2, and although it was a bit distorted due to me levering it out, it measured 3.008".
There was a thin layer of aluminium oxide on the outside, but I never had to do more than spray the inside of the housing with degreaser and wipe it clean with a rag. When I sandblasted the outside, I protected the inside with a double layer of painters masking tape. The sand never got through.
Would getting a seal with the diameter of 3.006" really make much of a difference over the 3.0002" seal? What do you all suggest? One of the guys at work thought that the small difference in diameter probably wouldn't be enough and said to get some Loctite Bearing and Shaft Retainer. He also suggested staking the edges of the housing to stop it turning, but the housing is pretty thin cast aluminium and I am worried it might crack or distort.
The oil level in the case is well below the seal level. The seal is to keep grease in and grit out of the bearings on the input shaft. The original bearings were open. The ones I replaced them with are different. The rear one is rubber sealed and the front one, with the circlip around it, has a steel shield on the back and is open on the front. I packed the front bearing and the gap between the front and rear one with wheel bearing grease. I also filled the cavity between the front bearing and the seal, but had to scoop it all out and wipe it clean when I removed the seal again.

On another subject, I tried filing the raised ridge on the worm shaft, where the broken shear pin allowed it to spin in the sprocket until it welded itself. The file just slides over it without making a mark. The area where the seal runs is also pretty pitted, both ends of the shaft. I dug the shaft out from the MK3 winch and gave it a clean up and it is much better, so I will use it and keep the other for a spare.
Today, I took the sprocket over to an old guy who lives across from work. One of the guys at work said he used to do some lathe work in his spare time.
His wife didn't want him to talk to me, but he heard me talking about the lathe and came out to see what was going on. As soon as we started talking she gave up, threw her hands in the air and wandered off. I think this is a common act for them. :)
It turns out he is now over 80 and is having a real problem with macular degeneration, and is finding it almost impossible to use his lathe and other gear. He got all excited at the chance of helping me out and we ended up in his shed, which is a converted double garage. I think he must be a retired engineer. Tools everywhere, but a set place for everything. Spotless, rust-free and he knew where every single thing was.

He set the sprocket up in the lathe and got it running true. He was worried that if he took a skim off the inside that it would be loose on the shaft. He also didn't think much of the design of the sprocket, with just a lock pin that didn't even go right through. He really wanted to cut a keyway in the sprocket and shaft, but didn't have the gear anymore. :)
It ended up taking 3 passes with a heavy boring bar to remove enough of the ridge in the sprocket for a 1-1'2" plug to be tapped through. The ridge was really hard.
Next he wanted to do something about a better locking system, so we drilled a hole through the collar and tapped it to 3/8" BSW, as he had lock screws in that size.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-57ZQ8xp/0/2924469f/L/i-57ZQ8xp-L.jpg)

As you can see, we tried drilling right through so we could have opposing lock screws. It wasn't going to happen. We rounded off 2 drill bits trying to get through that hardened skin on the far side.
He suggested I fit the sprocket on the shaft, lock it up with the original shear pin and drill a dimple in the shaft for the lock screw to seat into. I'm not sure if that will be possible as I couldn't mark the old shaft with a file.

With that all done, which took close to an hour, he wouldn't accept any payment, so I will have to find something else to give him.
There's a lot of technical know-how and skill going to be lost when he passes, and I don't think people coming up through the engineering fields these days will compare.
Jobs these days require people to narrow their fields of expertise, to be a specialist, and they miss out on a lot of skills that you pick up with the cross-training you get from having to work out how to get something done when faced with an out of the ordinary problem.

Ok, enough for now. I'll post up more once I get something worth mentioning done.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on November 04, 2017, 06:08:37 PM
Bit of progress.
I have the new bearings and seals fitted into the winch housing. The brake box is back on and the chain drive partly done.
I just have to make a new shear pin for the top sprocket from a socket head 1/2" UNF bolt.  Once that's done, I can refit the sprocket, chain and outer cover.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-fr5bxz4/0/a9e56181/M/i-fr5bxz4-M.jpg)

I'll give the whole thing another coat of paint before it goes back in. It's getting a lot heavier as it goes back together and I've managed to get a few scratches in the new paint.

This afternoon I started working on cleaning up the end frame and side rails. Lots of wire wheeling and painting needed there.
I managed to get the air actuator off the side frame after struggling with it for an hour. No idea why they used clevis pins instead of smooth shanked bolts for the ram to mount with. You can't get to the back to drive the pin out when it rusts in and the head is round and smooth so you can't grip it to pull it out.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-K38bnp3/0/015762ed/M/i-K38bnp3-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-GKZvSWx/0/ed8b2327/M/i-GKZvSWx-M.jpg)

Before and after shots. Looks like the 6x6 trucks got the upgraded actuator with the brass cylinder. The MK3 has the steel version.
I'll pull it apart and give it all a good clean and paint when I get home tomorrow.

It's good to see bits going back together. I have a lot of work to do on the truck before the winch goes back in though.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on November 04, 2017, 07:07:31 PM
You can drill hardened steel with masonry drills.Just pick one with clearance angles like a drillbit,rather then the rounded edge types.The other way is to spot anneal the hard area with oxy. and cool slowly.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on November 05, 2017, 09:31:20 PM
...
Would getting a seal with the diameter of 3.006" really make much of a difference over the 3.0002" seal? What do you all suggest? One of the guys at work thought that the small difference in diameter probably wouldn't be enough and said to get some Loctite Bearing and Shaft Retainer.

...
There's a lot of technical know-how and skill going to be lost when he passes, and I don't think people coming up through the engineering fields these days will compare.
...
Greg.

Nice work Greg!

According to the online converter 0.004" equals 0.1016mm. Loctite 641 is recommended for parts that will need subsequent dismantling and it has a maximum gap filling capability of 0.2mm, so it should meet your needs. However, there is a bit more to it than that, as the seal must be concentric to the shaft; if you need more information let me know and I can send you a scan from the Loctite "Do it right users' guide."

I suspect the old boy is a fitter, not an engineer and thankfully fitters still get trained in this country, but what they get shown is a bit of an unknown to me. I was trained as a fitter in the Army Reserve,

Cheers Charlie

P.S. Wives, daughters and mothers doing everything they can to keep a bloke out of the shed when he gets frail or has been ill, is a common thing. They mean well, but occupational therapy is very good for mental health and I suspect that you did a world of good for the old boy, although they can usually only take small doses of it.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on November 06, 2017, 11:10:24 AM
Thanks for that.

I forgot to mention in the last post that I took the seal and the chain drive housing into a different bearing place and they had a really big set of verniers that could measure the seal housing, even with the shaft fitted.
The housing measured 3.006", with a tiny variance at a few places. They measured the seal and it turns out it is out of round. It measured 3.002" to 3.004". The guy says it happens occasionally, but should have been rejected in the QA process.
He went through his collection of 3.006" seals and measured them all to get one that was just slightly over sized at 3.008". $9.80. Problem solved.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on November 07, 2017, 12:21:43 PM
Greg, Charlie and John- the fonts of knowledge in this post are amazing!   Congrats on an excellent stream and topics!  I learn about mental health, engineering and 6x6 AACOs   ;)

Frank




Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on November 08, 2017, 08:49:59 AM
... No idea why they used clevis pins instead of smooth shanked bolts for the ram to mount with. You can't get to the back to drive the pin out when it rusts in and the head is round and smooth so you can't grip it to pull it out.
...
Greg.
Coat them liberally with Loctite Anti-Seize and they will come out next time  :D
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on November 20, 2017, 08:43:55 PM
Hi all. Been getting almost nothing done lately. Got a rental inspection this Wednesday, so been cleaning and mowing. Then mowing some more.
I think I've been here 8 years and I've never seen it this bad. If I don't mow around the trucks every weekend, the grass is too thick and just chokes the mower.

About all I have gotten done lately is the winch air ram. When I got it apart, I found that the main piston rubber was marked PBR PC646-3. That's different to what's in the RPS, but the local places still don't have a listing. Luckily, mine was in good condition.
Before I got it apart, I couldn't even pull the piston out. Once I got the gland nut on the end off, I found that there is a rubber grommet that gets squashed down to seal on the shaft. Almost like the system to stop water squirting out the shaft on a household tap. New taps use an o'ring, but older taps used a gland seal made from a twist of greased hemp fibre.
I dug the grommet out and found that they actually had 3 in there. The top one looked ok, but the 2 under it were really old, hard and brittle. I think they just stuck a new one on top and tightened it up. I tossed the 2 older ones out and cut a couple of new disks out of some soft insertion rubber sheet. I used my wad punches to cut the centres out and used one size smaller than the shaft. The proper grommets are oval in cross-section, which aligns with a groove in the bottom of the gland nut. I coated my new rubber disks with some rubber grease and put them in first, then put the original grommet on top and did the gland nut up enough to almost stop the shaft being pulled out by hand.

I etch primed all the parts and later gave them a good top coat. I reassembled it with new bolts and just need to give it a light respray to cover a few scratches.
Oh, I carefully cut a couple of thin insertion rubber rings out to seal the barrel ends. The originals were thin resin sort of things and leaked air. If I really hunted around, I could possibly find a square section o'ring the right size, but this seems to have worked.
I haven't tested it with pressurised air yet, but I can cover the hole and push the rod in and it holds the air until my thumb gives out. Same on the other end when I pull the shaft out.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-PJTSRps/0/aae4e68f/M/i-PJTSRps-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-fPWWfFL/0/2cff7ce9/M/i-fPWWfFL-M.jpg)

Only had the little compact camera handy. Neither of those pics looks right. The dark one was without the flash.
I just realised that I have to get a couple of new flexible hoses made up to connect to the ram. The old ones have become rock hard. The steel pipes seem ok though, so I just need to get the fittings undone without twisting the flared ends off.

Once I get this inspection over with, I can get stuck into cleaning up the chassis rails and replacing the rusted out air pipes. And make new brake pipes. Then refit the master cylinders.

I had to order in a replacement switch for the Gernie steam cleaner. The previous owner broke the shaft off and was using a screwdriver to turn it on and adjust the heat. He finally chewed the hole out to the point where it wouldn't switch on. He's lucky he didn't electrocute himself. It would cough a couple a puffs of smoke and that's it.
I played around with the burner partly dismantled and saw that there was plenty or ignition spark, but only a tiny dribble of diesel from the tip. It should be a continuous cone shaped fine spray. I was looking at this dribble when I spotted sediment in the return line that takes excess fuel back to the low pressure side of the pump.
The previous owner had replaced the main fuel hose from the tank to the injector pump, and didn't bother putting the filter back in the line. The diesel tank has a strainer in the filler hole, but it was almost clogged totally. The tank had about 2 litres of fuel in it and it was full of dirt and sludge. I cleaned it out and refilled it, but it looks like some had gotten through the pump and partly blocked the solenoid to injector passage.
I replaced all the rest of the fuel lines after cleaning the tank, but need to fit a new filter, dismantle the injector and solenoid and clean them. Should be a ripper when it gets going. 

Will post more when I get something done.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on December 26, 2017, 12:28:07 PM
Hi all and Merry Xmas.

Wow, it's been over a month since I got anything done. Now that I have a week off, I intend to make a bit of progress.

I need to remove the transfer case to get at the air, fuel and brake lines running down the chassis rails.
I also needed to knock the grass down under the truck so I could find things that I drop. Easiest way was to move it forward and mow it really low.
Turns out that in the short time the truck has sat there, since I took the tray off, that the tires had sunk close to 6" into the soft sandy soil.
I moved it forward, mowed it to the dirt and filled the holes in. I picked up 6 big 400x400x50 concrete pavers and put them where the truck was going to sit.
I rolled back onto them and it all seems good. A couple cracked through, but should still stop the tires sinking in the near future.
The brake masters are still in the spare room, as they get in the way when I work on the chassis rails. When parked, I leave it in gear and have the handbrake on.
The problem with this is that to pull the transfer case out, I need to disconnect the drive shafts. The handbrake rods connect to a pivot that bolts the the crossmember that the transfer case hangs off.
I got around this by hooking a ratchet strap between the rear handbrake pivot on the back diff and part of the chassis further forward. This keeps tension on the handbrake even when I disconnected the front pivot.
So far, it has worked. I tried to chock a few wheels but being so big, they are likely to roll over the chocks. The front driveshaft digging into the ground might help. :)

There are 6 bolts holding the transfer case crossmember to the mounts and 5 came undone easily. One just rounded off so I cracked the nut. They are all very rusted and worn, so I will be replacing them.
This morning I swung the crane around and threw a strop over the boom and used my hand winch to lower the transfer case down onto the ATV lift. I originally intended to lift it up and out, but I would have had to unbolt the mounting plates that it attaches to and would also need a second person to guide and jiggle it as I worked the crane. Also, the transfer case is too far forward to be able to use the hooks on the crane.

With the transfer case on the ATV lift, which was sitting on a sheet of steel I had from the other truck, I was able to slide it out from under the truck. I was then able to swing the crane around and hook the lifting strop to the end hook. I lifted it up and sat it onto my makeshift workbench, made from the 2 spare tires from the trucks with the sheet of steel on top.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-n2xpcsp/0/701b004f/M/i-n2xpcsp-M.jpg)

Once I am finished with the crane, I can put my 3m x 3m gazebo over the top to block the worst of the sun.
I have all new seals for the transfer case and will also clean it up and repaint it all.
I have to clean and repaint the insides of the chassis rails and replace most of the air pipes for the brakes, winch actuator and high/low range lockout, as well as the brake and fuel lines.
Once I had the transfer case out, I found that the pipe from the rear fuel tank had completely rusted through and was only sitting there as it was stuck between 2 air pipes.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-9Cpj6VT/0/77a09061/M/i-9Cpj6VT-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-wBgztS7/0/9cec5019/M/i-wBgztS7-M.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-WqzsB3p/0/146dc998/M/i-WqzsB3p-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-DHjLMwP/0/3a505de3/M/i-DHjLMwP-M.jpg)

Some pics of the driver's side chassis rail and pipes. There is also some rust between the double layers of the chassis rail, but it doesn't seem to have eaten into the surface much. Cleaning it up is going to be interesting though.

Now for the next issue. I lowered the transfer case down onto my new workbench and tried to loosen the drain bung. I want to drop the oil and give it a good flush out with kero before fitting new seals and repainting.
The bung is just a 3/4" tapered pipe plug. The problem is, when I tried to undo it with a big shifter, the side cracked off.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-NwWb64L/0/0757d8ce/M/i-NwWb64L-M.jpg)

It looks like the metal has crystallised. I tried to get onto it from a different angle, but the metal just crumbles.
I am thinking of drilling into it and using an Easy-Out. I thought of heating it, but the case is full of oil, so that might not be a good idea. I have it tipped over, so the bung is on top.
I'm not too worried about metal filings from drilling getting into the oil, as I will be draining and flushing it out.

I think I'll drill a hole in the centre and try an Easy-Out, and if that doesn't work, I'll drill a small hole close to the edge, but not close enough to damage the aluminium threads in the case. Then I can enlarge the centre hole or drill a series of holes across the bung and try to split it enough to free it up.
I'll post up what works.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dugite on December 26, 2017, 12:39:50 PM
substantial new chapter Greg - worth waiting for :) - thanks
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on December 26, 2017, 04:12:41 PM
Thanks for that. :)

Well, the Easy-Outs didn't work. The cast material the bung is made of is very brittle. I drilled the centre and screwed the smaller Easy-Out in but it just chewed chunks out until It couldn't grip any more. I stepped up to the next size but it was the same.
I drilled a couple of holes close to the edge, on either side of the bung, and tried to split it with a cold chisel, but my chisel is too wide and I was worried about cracking the aluminium housing or damaging the external thread.
I tried heating the casing around the bung with a LPG torch, but only got large amounts of smelly smoke. Eventually, I joined the centre hole to one of the outer ones by filing it out with a round chainsaw file.
I was then able to stick the tip of a bricky's chisel in and use a big shifter to crack it free. Once it started moving, it came out easily. There was some sort of clear varnish/resin in the threads, and I suspect it was a thread locking compound.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-QHWvfZK/0/bd6144b1/M/i-QHWvfZK-M.jpg)

With that done, I stuck a spare bung in and lifted it up with the crane to drain the oil.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-g6Q3BXK/0/fa841035/M/i-g6Q3BXK-M.jpg)

The oil was an odd grey-green colour, but there was no sign of water. It had that stinky gear oil smell, too. There were a few metal flakes in the pan when I drained it into the waste oil drum, but they were the ones from where I drilled the bung. Easy enough to tell, as they were a dark grey and looked like grains of sand, whereas filings from the gears or bearings would be shiny and sharp like small slivers.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-NxnNjMf/0/9deaeea1/M/i-NxnNjMf-M.jpg)

With it all drained, I sat it down and put the crane away. The transfer case is filthy, with a thick caked-on layer of dirt and old oil. I scraped the thickest of it off and soaked it with degreaser. Later this afternoon, once it cools down and the flies leave, I'll hit it with the pressure washer and see what comes off. I'll do this a few times until it is clean, then pull the drive flanges off and change the seals.
After that, I'll give it a bit of a sand/wire wheel and prime and paint it.
Oddly, under all that gunk, it's actually painted grey. The one off the MK3 was dark green over red primer, and then had a few layers of dirt and olive drab.
There is a brass plate on one side, but it's right up under the cross-member and hard to get at to clean.
Not sure if it is a rebuild plate or an original identification plate like the ones on the winch and power splitter boxed on the diffs.

I'll post more pics once I get a bit done.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on December 27, 2017, 09:06:05 AM

Wow, it's been over a month since I got anything done.
Greg.

Don't I know it!

Internet viewing has been a life of intense boredom - thank heavens you are back!

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on December 27, 2017, 12:42:19 PM
Ha, thanks for that. It's good to know a few of you read this. For me, typing this up helps me sort things in my mind, which helps me decide what to do next. It's also a good reference as it can be a long time between pulling something off and putting it back on and I often forget what goes where. The RPS is of little benefit when it comes to working out whether the front transfer case brace rod goes on the bolt before the rear one does.

I just came in for lunch and a break from the annoying little black sheep flies that crawl on your face and try to get in your ears and up your nose.
I spent the morning scraping and scrubbing the caked on mud and grease on the transfer case. The degreaser doesn't seem to penetrate it. I found that a stiff bristle brush and diesel work much better. The diesel softens the thick stuff and dissolves the old grease. Once that's gone, the degreaser and pressure washer take it back to the old paint.

I got the back about as clean as I can for now, and decided to remove the drive flanges to see if the surface the seals run on was pitted like the ones on the MK3 were. That took more time than the scrubbing and cleaning did. Because the transfer case is out of the truck, the whole thing moves around. I should have loosened the castellated nuts on the truck before I removed it. I could have bolted up the front driveshaft and put it into 6 wheel drive then swung off the rear drive flange, then bolt up the rear driveshaft and undo the front one the same way.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-QKVRwX6/0/b1d68975/M/i-QKVRwX6-M.jpg)

As it was, I eventually came up with the method in the pic above.
I put a bolt through the drive flange and the bar. This locks against the 1-11/16" socket. At first, it turned until the bar was against the steel sheet, but I found it was just lifting the transfer case off the ground.
I had the pipe over the 3/4" breaker bar for some extra leverage but couldn't put enough force down onto it while trying to lift the lever with my left hand.
Eventually I used a ratchet strap around the pipe and the lever, leaned on it as much as I could, and did the ratchet strap up.
Just before it ran out of strap, I gave the pipe a good smack with a big lump of wood and the socket slipped off. The good news was that the nut had loosened just enough for me to be able to undo it with just the bar and pipe.
The winch drive flange was a bit easier. The recess around the nut is too small for my socket to fit so I used a punch and hammer. The castellated nut undid pretty easily.
The surfaces on the drive flanges where the seals run were both really good. On the larger one for the rear driveshaft, there was a ridge but it turned out to be some sort of varnish. I think its from the old oil wiping off the felt seal over the years. I was able to scratch through it with the tip of a screwdriver, so I will give it a light rub with fine wet & dry before reassembling it all.
On the MK3, the flanges were badly pitted. I suspect it was from sitting for a long time. Water would get drawn in through the dried out seals as the air in the transfer case expanded and contracted with temperature changes, as the breather was blocked.

Once it cools down a bit, I will start cleaning the front. The grease and mud are much thicker on that side. I wish I could sit the whole thing in a tub of degreaser for a day or so. Or put it in a big dishwasher.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on December 27, 2017, 02:08:30 PM
Great work Greg - You are an inspiration and I very much enjoy reading your posts, especially the logical way you approach solving problems!  I am overhauling the steering box on my F1 - boy that's fun too!     Keep up the excellent work mate!

Frank


 :)
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on December 27, 2017, 03:46:27 PM
...I should have loosened the castellated nuts on the truck before I removed it. ...
Greg.

Kindred spirits – I am taking the V8 out of my Disco and I remember now, that last time I did it I put it on the ramp and loosened all of the bell-housing and gearbox fasteners first in relative comfort and then drove it inside.

I have just spent 5 hours lying under the wretched thing, trying to reach them all and still have four bolts to go!

Top work on the lever solution!

Cheers Charlie

Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on December 29, 2017, 06:48:00 PM
Yes, I know the joys of the Discoveries. I spent last Friday and Saturday under mine doing an oil change and fitting a new flex coupling, driveshaft bushing and trying to adjust the handbrake.

Today started off overcast, cool but with no wind, so I got out my new portable workshop and got it set up.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-mxJpGKF/0/ce2196cf/M/i-mxJpGKF-M.jpg)

What a difference, once the sun came out. It's amazing how much more you get done when you are comfortable and not picking up tools that burn your hands.
I spent the day cleaning the old paint and grease off the front of the transfer case.
With the seal retainers off for cleaning, painting and fitting new seals, I was able to get into it with the wire wheel on the grinder and a small brush on the drill for the tight corners.
Everything got a wipe down with turps and then I started putting bits back on. I made new gaskets and used a light smear of red RTV gasket sealant on both sides to help seal the oil in a bit better.
The new bolts also got a coat of RTV sealant, as the holes go right through into the box and there were signs that the old bolts didn't seal well.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-StPRJFx/0/a7a70c6d/M/i-StPRJFx-M.jpg)

Once it's fully cured, I will clean off the excess sealant and etch prime the whole front. The back should be pretty easy as it wasn't as bad as the front.
The front had a weird grey paint all over it. It was really thick, like high-build primer but it scraped off really easily.
There were a few spots where the camo paint had stuck, but I think whatever the grey stuff was reacted with it and most fell off. There is none on the back or sides, only the front.
I'll post again when I get the back and sides primed.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 01, 2018, 03:43:24 PM
Well, I almost got it all done.
Cleaned, primed and painted all of the seal retainers and cover plates, pressed in new seals, cleaned the case right back, etch primed it and painted all but the bottom.
That will have to wait until I clean, prime and paint the cross-member that it bolts to, as I need it fitted to hang the whole thing from the crane. That will be the second last job.
The last is going to be filling the case with kero, giving all the drive flanges a good spin and draining it out. I'll strain the kero through a few layers of clean Chux cloths and use it for other things.
While I was cleaning the old flaky paint off, I noticed one of the rags I had blocking a bearing had come loose, letting aluminium and paint flakes get in. I tried getting it out by spraying kero in, but a full flush would be a better idea.
I'm also going to replace the drain bung with a solid one, that I will drill and fit a rare earth magnet into, same as I did for the 2 rear diff bungs.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-NxnNjMf/0/9deaeea1/M/i-NxnNjMf-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-J8BzjRT/0/7fd4ef83/M/i-J8BzjRT-M.jpg)

Before and after pics.

New bolts and spring washers all round. There was no signs of wear on the sealing faces of the drive flanges, unlike the MK3.
While I was out there, I got a nice clear pic of the manufacturer's plate on the side of the transfer case.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-4xJ4BFS/0/15ca9e90/M/i-4xJ4BFS-M.jpg)

I see it is stamped 1972, which is interesting as the plate in the cab says it was made June 1969. The REMLR ARN list shows it as 1972 though. The transfer case could have been exchanged for a rebuilt one at some point, I guess. There was a rectangular patch on the cover plate on the back of the case that turned out to be a layer of resin or araldite. I suspect there was a mod or rebuild plate there at some point.
Someone went to a lot of trouble to remove most of the rest of them from all over the truck. I found the holes where they were pinned to the gearbox, both rear diffs and chassis rails. No idea why they would remove them.

Once I finish cleaning and painting the cross-member for the transfer case, I will get in and pull out the steel air lines that run down to the tractor protection valve. I will make new ones of those and also replace the brake lines that run from the master cylinders down both chassis rails to the back axles. I also have to make new fuel lines that run from the tanks to the selector switch in the cab. I'm thinking of using flexible fuel hose instead of rigid steel pipe. It will depend on how hard it is to bend up new steel lines.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on January 02, 2018, 09:56:48 AM
Nice work as per usual!  :D

Steel bundy-tube is not hard to bend, although a good bender is required to make them nice and neat.

Can you remove the old ones in one piece, so that you can make the new one on a bench? The only size I have found hard to get is 1/2",

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 02, 2018, 11:38:31 AM
I have about 12m of the 1/2" tube from when I started replacing the lines on the MK3. It isn't bundy-tube though, it's thin walled (1.2mm) hydraulic line.
I have a nice solid hand bender for this size and a smaller one for the brake line, fuel line and smaller air lines.
The 2 pipes running down to the tractor protection valve should come out whole, now that the transfer case is out.
I am going to shape the new ones slightly different, to keep them up out of the bottom of the chassis rail where the dirt and water sits.
The pipe feeding air down to the tractor protection valve is 1/2" and the one coming back up to the brake treadle valve is 3/8", I think.
The pipe from the hydraulic place is hard drawn, so I heat the sections to be bent and let them cool slowly. Makes it a lot easier.
The smaller lines, for the fuel and brakes, will be replaced with coated bundy tube. In the past I had trouble getting paint to stick to the uncoated type,
even etch primer. It just seemed to slide off some areas, even though it had all been wiped down with turps. The coated stuff is better.
Not sure if it is a paint or a powdercoat, but it doesn't crack when bent.
The hydraulic pump bolted to the side of the gearbox is going to make it fun to get at the pipe fitting I need to undo to remove the 3/8" line.
It's sort of behind the pump, but under the crane base. I need an extra elbow in my arm to work in there.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on January 03, 2018, 09:33:08 AM
... It isn't bundy-tube though, it's thin walled (1.2mm) hydraulic line.
...
The pipe from the hydraulic place is hard drawn, so I heat the sections to be bent and let them cool slowly. Makes it a lot easier.
...
Greg.

Ah Ha!

I must have been asking for the wrong material for my 200tdi S3 conversion. Thanks for the tip; I need to make two engine oil pipes, which go to the radiator heat-exchanger.

Is your hydraulic shop a franchise? I need to know where to ask the right questions,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 03, 2018, 11:29:48 AM
Yes, the place I got mine from was Hydraulink. They have outlets all over the place.
Just ask for 1/2" or 3/8" tubing, 1.2mm wall thickness. They had to order it in for me as they didn't stock the thin walled stuff, but it only took 3 days.
I think it comes in 6.6m lengths, but they sell it by the metre, if you need less.
Check what fittings you need, as they sell those too. I needed JIC flare nuts, which they couldn't source. I eventually got 10 through a tractor supply place.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: 4x4-581 on January 03, 2018, 10:29:30 PM
I may have missed it along the way, but what paint
And method of applying it are you using?
 Really enjoying the rebuild of your truck.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 04, 2018, 08:27:53 AM
I am using a Wattyl Super Etch primer and a minimum of 2 coats of the Protec Lustreless olive drab.
I find that the pictures I take on my phone and with my little instamatic digital camera show the colour as much darker than it actually is, sometimes almost like the deep bronze green.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-PJTSRps/0/aae4e68f/M/i-PJTSRps-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-J8BzjRT/0/7fd4ef83/M/i-J8BzjRT-M.jpg)

The first pic is my Canon Powershot and the second with the Canon EOS 650D SLR. Huge difference in colour in the pic but identical to the eye.

The Protec paint dries quickly, but it very soft. You can scratch it with your fingernail. After a few days in the sun, it cures and is much tougher.
The only problem I have found is that the etch primer needs thinners for brush cleaning, while the Protec paint uses turps. The thinners evaporates really fast and the fumes aren't good for you.
If I am painting a large area, I keep a tin with turps in it nearby as the Protec paint starts to harden on the brush after a few minutes. Just a dip in the turps and it goes soft again.
The Protec paint is available in spray packs as well. Any time you start a new can, you need to shake it really well. A couple of minutes minimum. If you don't, you tend to find things you paint first end up being a different colour to stuff painted later.
Be careful using the Protec paint and always wear a good quality mask designed for particles and fumes, as the paint is an alkyd finishing enamel, really nasty.
One thing to note is that on some parts that needed a really heavy duty protection, I used a Zinc Epoxy Primer. You can't use Alkyd based paints over this. I painted the tank support brackets and one of the fuel tanks with it, then panted the primer over that, then the Protec paint. The Zinc Epoxy is a thick high-build coat and it absorbs the next coat. It took close to 3x the normal amount of primer to cover it, but it came out really good.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Mick on January 04, 2018, 05:33:56 PM
Hi All,

To add to Greg's mention of the Protec spray cans, he is spot on with the cans needing very very very good shaking before use. In addition to that , cans should be stored upside down.  This alleviates the paint settling at the bottom of the can and allows the balls some freedom so they don't block the pick up tube.

I think we can all relate to that 🤔

Cheers,

Mick
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Philthy on January 04, 2018, 11:08:28 PM
If you don’t finish a spray can turn it up side down and clear as per normal as you do  ::), then pull the white spray tip straight up and off the can. Then keep the tips in a jar of turpentine. I also keep the ones that spray better as they aren’t all the same. If the paint starts to splatter pull the tip off, press down on the tube to clear it and change it for one in the jar. Works a treat. You’ll only press them back on facing you once  ;D

Trucks looking great!
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Mick_Marsh on January 05, 2018, 09:33:28 AM
You’ll only press them back on facing you once  ;D
Not quite true.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on January 05, 2018, 09:35:36 AM
Pleasing to know that I am not the only one  :D
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: 303Gunner on January 05, 2018, 11:43:01 AM
You’ll only press them back on facing you once  ;D
Not quite true.
Don't you get cranky when that happens?.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ford Blitz on January 05, 2018, 08:27:10 PM
I got a can shaker that fits onto a reciprocating saw to deal with protec cans. Wouldn't you think they could sort this problem out or am i missing something
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Mick_Marsh on January 05, 2018, 11:17:46 PM
I got a can shaker that fits onto a reciprocating saw to deal with protec cans. Wouldn't you think they could sort this problem out or am i missing something
I think it's because of the sediment in the lusterless paint.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 20, 2018, 03:14:52 PM
Been busy lately, lots of small things like removing the rusted out brake and air pipes, but nothing worthy of a before and after shot.
I found a local place that sells the Brake Safe flexible tubing and fittings, so just need to make a list.

Today I started cleaning the rust out of the gap between the 2 chassis rail layers. From what I found, I think sand and mud got between the layers and trapped moisture.
This made the 2 layers of steel start to spall. These layers of rust eventually met in the middle and started forcing the 2 layers of the rail apart.
I don't have a photo, but when you look along the rail, wherever a tray tie-down U-bolt was, the metal layers are still tight together.
This makes it look like the outer layer has a series of kinks,as if it was impacted from below.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-tZZ5rJs/0/c539be5a/M/i-tZZ5rJs-M.jpg)

This is a pic of the very worst section. You can see the multiple layers of rust. Note the bolt hole just above where the transfer case brace attaches.

I bought a pair of fox wedges yesterday and found that the best way of removing the rust was to belt them in between the layers, about 6" apart.
I then used a 4lb hammer to belt the underside of the rail, starting at the back and working across to the front edge. The rust broke into chunks and fell out.
I used the compressor to blow the chunks out and kept working that small section until it was clear. I have a paint scraper with a hook on one corner and found it useful for snagging out bigger pieces that jammed.
Once the heavy pieces were out, I found a compacted layer of yellow coarse sand right at the back.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-tqHDzwS/0/f0a7601f/M/i-tqHDzwS-M.jpg)

As you can see, it came up really clean. I can't get a wire brush in to give it a good scrub but I was thinking that it might be worth wedging short sections open and give it a blast with the sand blaster.
The guys next door at work do materials testing and have to check the garnet grit waste from repainting bridges and structures for lead.
They usually have lots of it laying around and because its free, I don't feel so bad about using it for this job, where I can't catch it and reuse it.
By doing it in small sections while wedged open, I figure I can clean the metal and still blow out any grit that gets stuck. Once cleaned, I can prime and paint it.

With the rust and  wedges removed, the gap closes  up a bit but not fully. I will try putting a jack on a block of wood and see if I can jack it closed.
I'm not sure it will stay closed though. I'd like to close it and then run a bead of weld along to seal the gap, then grind it off smooth.
Being a chassis though, do you think they would be concerned when I get it checked over for rego? I'll ask the DTHT club president about it, as I think he can certify vehicles for club rego.
I'm a bit hesitant to ask the engineering guys who will do the actual certification for rego as they may have a fit over there being rust there at all, even though I cleaned it out.

What do you all think?

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on January 20, 2018, 04:36:29 PM
If you feel that the chassis is strong enough, keep quiet about it.

Nice job of getting the rust out! Rather than blast it, I would squirt Penetrol into the space. Several applications will seal the rust and stop it completely. If there are any holes higher up, Penetrol can be added there and it should spread between the two members if enough is applied; it can be painted over later.

I wouldn't weld the chassis, it would seal any damp in and potentially make the rusting worse and it would also distort the chassis. Perhaps the distortion would be minimal, but is it worth the risk of writing-it-off?

Penetrol is also useful as an annual rust-stopper squirted into cavities,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dkg001 on January 20, 2018, 08:25:05 PM
I agree with Charlie, welding is not a great idea, I think you will find it will close up OK, remember you will be fitting the tray back with U Bolts and spacers which will help keeping the join of the chassis rails even and tidy.   
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 21, 2018, 04:19:19 PM
Ok, thanks for that.

I've only done about a metre of the bottom side of the driver's side rail so far. My arms gave out, swinging that 4lb hammer upwards over and over.
It was stinking hot, no breeze at all and super humid. I had the 3m x 3m awning over me but next time I'll take a big pedestal fan out too. :)

The bottom side of the driver's side rail is the worst. There is a bit in the gap at the top on that side, and a bad section right at the rear where the double rail ends, but most of the top edge is pretty good.
The passenger's side is almost perfect, with just a couple of places where it is spread a bit and it actually looks like compacted sand, not rust.
I think I will clean the whole bottom side of the driver's side rail out, then do the top, which won't take anywhere near as much effort.
Once that's done, I will jack up the driver's side wheels so the gap slopes inwards, then mop it out with rust converter. Any excess should run out.
Once it has done it's work I will clean it up according to the rust converter directions, and then run Penetrol in along the top gap. If there is any sort of a gap along the face, it should work it's way down and show up in the bottom gap.
Once it has worked down I will paint more Penetrol in the gap at the bottom anywhere it needs it and let it dry or whatever it does.
I'll prime it and paint the inside, top and bottom of the rail. I'm tossing up whether or not to use Zinc Epoxy in the gap. I have a 4l tin of it and it seems to do a good job.
The stone guard under the fuel tanks was badly rusted and I painted it with Zinc Epoxy over a year ago and it has sat out the back in the weather since then with no sign of new rust.
There is some pitting on the top of the chassis rail in a few places where the spacer rail for the tray sat, as it wasn't galvanised. It just had olive drab over bare metal and had rusted through.
I am replacing it with some heavier rectangular box section. I think I might mix up some Zinc Epoxy and paint the top of the rail with it for extra protection. It is thick and should fill any hollows where water will sit once the tray is on.
That's still a bit in the future though.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on January 21, 2018, 04:33:02 PM
Sounds like a good plan to me  :D

You don't need to use rust-converter if you use Penetrol.

Penetrol works by seeping into the rust and driving out the air; no air means no oxygen, so the reaction that creates ferric oxide is stopped.

All the rust converters I have used don't penetrate rust, despite what it says on the label, so the rust continues under the layer of phosphate.

Have a look at the Flood Paint Company's website, which explains what Penetrol is and how it works. http://www.floodaustralia.net/products/paint_additives/penetrol.php
I did a trial of my favourite rust converters outside for 12 months and only Penetrol worked for 12 months, the others started rusting within days,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: 303Gunner on January 23, 2018, 10:29:21 AM
Is it Penetrol you plan to use, or Penetrene?

http://qsmart.net.au/sample-post/penetrene-2/
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on January 23, 2018, 07:11:55 PM
Not penetrene - Penetrol is the very best product and nothing I have seen or used comes even close.  That's from a salt water marine environment exposure too!

STDDIVER    :D
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Mick_Marsh on January 23, 2018, 07:13:49 PM
Tony, Penetrol I believe is the correct product in this case. You can paint over it.
http://www.floodaustralia.net/products/anti_corrosion/penetrol-anti_rust.php
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on January 25, 2018, 09:23:03 AM
Penetrene is an oil that cannot be painted over and although it may penetrate rust, it will eventually stop working as it dries up, or drips off.

Penetrol is totally different in every aspect; there are some very interesting examples of its use on the Flood website, including one ship owner who nows uses it instead of sandblasting!

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on May 02, 2018, 05:54:55 PM
Hi all, just a minor update.
Its been ages. I only get one day a weekend to work on the truck and it always seems to be raining, blowing a gale or someone else asks for help on that day.
I'm hoping to get a week off shortly so I can get the chassis rails finished and painted and maybe the new air lines fitted.
The days are getting shorter and colder and soon I won't be able to get the paint to cure.

While hammering away at the chassis rail, I heard a clunk sound and looked up to see the brake light switch had snapped off and was dangling on it's wires.
Its a fair old hunk of metal and the part that attaches to the tractor protection valve is cast aluminium. Looking at the break, I think the metal was cracked a while as the switch had water in it.
I asked around locally, as some of the guys in the Defence Transport Heritage Tasmania group have Inters, but nobody had a spare.
I looked up the part numbers and found that it was an old International part.
The number in the F1 RPS was 154054 H1 and the number in the MK4 RPS was 136460 R91.
The Iveco dealer looked them up and the F1 number isn't in the system, but the MK4 number was listed as being superseded by part number 873706 R91, which he even had in stock. $41.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-DdXLNCf/0/07c154a8/M/i-DdXLNCf-M.jpg)

Looks very different to the old one and is far lighter. It should last the life of the truck now.

As you can see in the first pic below, I had to cut the head off one of the mounting bolts for the tractor protection valve to get it off. The bolt had seized in the aluminium casting.
I tried soaking it with CRC and Penetrene but was worried that the aluminium might crack if I tried driving it out with a hammer and punch.
I couldn't twist it at all, so heated the broken bolt up with a little butane torch and let it cool. Then I put it in the press with the broken bolt in a hole I drilled in a press plate that was just a few sizes bigger than the bolt, to give the housing as much support as I could. The press went up to just over 5 tonne before the bolt started to move, but it came out smoothly and I was able to clean the hole out with a round file.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-CBPBw7b/0/b205a4fe/M/i-CBPBw7b-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-hd2HPJ2/0/26039645/M/i-hd2HPJ2-M.jpg)

I put it in the sandblasting cabinet and gave it a clean up. It looks like the steel pipe has a copper wash. I can't pressure test it until I get it all refitted, but I will pull all the brass fittings off and use thread tape on them before repainting it all. It looks like they originally use red Stag pipe jointing paste, and it has done hard and crumbles off when poked.

Not sure if I will get a chance to do more to the truck this weekend as we are supposed to get more rain, but I'll post an update when I get more done.

Greg
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 07, 2018, 05:52:50 PM
Well, winter seems to be over, the days are getting longer and warmer. Time to get on with some restoration!

I got the tractor protection valve primed and painted. I had to sit it inside near the heater to get the paint to cure, but it seems to have worked.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-89QXjMz/1/c3b78e8f/M/i-89QXjMz-M.jpg)

Today I pulled the tarps off and can't see any new rust, so it seems to have helped over winter.
I wanted to try out the steam cleaner, as I have previously blasted the really greasy places with a decent pressure washer, but it had little effect.

I gave the stabiliser leg, back of the gearbox/hydraulic pump and the passenger side spring and chassis rail a good spray with degreaser and left it to soak in for a half hour.
I had the steam cleaner get up to around 70° and blasted what I could get at. I really need to put the truck over a pit so I can get at things easier.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-mw7tVbc/0/42f2b1d9/M/i-mw7tVbc-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-cwZdF2X/0/dbb3e74b/M/i-cwZdF2X-M.jpg)

It's a bit hard to see and I couldn't get the camera to light up the area I wanted to show, but a lot of the thicker stuff came off. I think that with a few more applications of degreaser and hot water blasting, I would get most of this off.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-4cvMg7W/0/83634505/L/i-4cvMg7W-L.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-2CPNs6d/0/de33b5e3/L/i-2CPNs6d-L.jpg)

The stabiliser leg is leaking oil from the raise/lower lever at the top. The foot was coated with a really thick layer of grease and mud, which came off quite easily.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-svmpNRQ/0/f68f605c/M/i-svmpNRQ-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-Hcg8z78/0/66377160/M/i-Hcg8z78-M.jpg)

The hydraulic controls for the Abbey crane had a leak that had been running down the back wall of the cab, possibly for years. The whole area, including the chassis rail, spring and front axle on the passenger's side had a thick layer of caked-on oil and dirt.
I was really surprised at how clean it came up. The spring actually looks as good as new, as you can clearly see "Army" printed on it. I think both front spring packs have been replaced and the passenger's side one has just been protected under that layer of gunk. 

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-5VsSG3p/0/3b6c147c/M/i-5VsSG3p-M.jpg)

Driver's side spring pack.

Anyway, I will get stuck in and finish cleaning the loose rust flakes out from between the dual chassis rails on the driver's side. I have about a metre to go. Then I'll coat it all with Penetrol, clamp the 2 lips together and run some short beads of weld to hold them closed. I also need to measure up and buy replacement brake tubing and run that along the chassis rails, and then work out how much BrakeSafe air tubing I need and exactly which end fittings I will have to track down.

My goal is to have the chassis rails all completed, the winch and transfer case back in and the winch cable rollers and pulley wheels all refitted before the cold weather returns.

Lots of posts to come.

Greg.

Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Mick on October 08, 2018, 07:50:54 AM
Greg,

Your like a dog with a bone 😊

Looking forward to your future posts and really looking forward to seeing the project completed.

Well done !!!

Cheers,

Mick
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on October 08, 2018, 08:36:50 AM
Wonderful to have you back in action Greg!

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dugite on October 08, 2018, 10:13:09 AM
Glad that the weather has warmed up enough to awaken hibernation slumbers.

We seriously look forward to seeing your restoration progress :)
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on October 09, 2018, 01:37:57 PM
See your new springs and new pins too......I notice all the spring works used to be around are gone....seems if you truck needs springs reset or whatever ,you have to buy new .......not that a lot of trucks have springs anymore ........The control valves on the outriggers just have ordinary O rings in them..............Warm weather here means out of hibernation too.....for the snakes.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 14, 2018, 01:43:38 PM
Thanks for the encouraging posts, I really need it at the moment.
I went out this morning, planning on removing the last metre of rust spalling between the 2 chassis layers so I could treat it and start on clamping and spot welding the double chassis back together.
What I found was a whole new layer of rust flakes had formed between the sandwiched rails, both on the top, which had been treated with Penetrol before winter, and also along the bottom, which had been mostly cleaned and blown out with compressed air.
It took most of the morning to wedge open the top rails and clean out the rust again. The flakes were well coated with dried Penetrol on top, but no sign on the bottom.
Before winter, these rails were cleaned as well as I could, through a 5 to 10mm gap, then washed out with thinners and allowed to dry before having Penetrol squirted in and left to dry.
This time I scraped out the rust flakes, sprayed thinners in with a squirt bottle and blew it out with compressed air. (Not the safest thing to do, but I didn't get blown up this time).
Then I used a spraycan of penetrol to squirt loads into the gap and blew it around with the compressed air at a lower pressure to try to coat both sides evenly.

I tried cleaning the last metre of the bottom rails that I didn't get to do before winter, but its really hard to get a decent swing at it, as the axles, springs and other suspension parts keep getting in the way. There are also a couple of large bolts that go through the chassis rails to lock the bogie group in position and these bolts have to be removed to spread the chassis layers with the wedges. There are 2x 5/8" bolts on the driver's side where I am working that came out fairly easily, but there is also a big 7/8" one that has a badly corroded nyloc nut on top. It needs a 1-5/16" spanner to undo, which I don't have, of course. I have sockets and a breaker bar, but can't get it on as there is a round cross-member directly above it that links both axles to keep them from twisting under load. I can get a 1-1/4" open ender on one pair of flats, but I think it is likely to slip and just burr the nut if I try to belt it around. I'll see if I can get a lend of an 1-5/16" flogging spanner during the week, otherwise I will have to try carefully grinding the side and splitting it. It's on a stud so I can't damage the thread.

Not sure what to do about the rust between the double chassis now. It's rusting faster than I can treat it. I thought of getting a turps gun and squirting rust converter into the gap to try to kill the rust, then wash it out with lots of thinners before trying to pack zinc-epoxy primer in there. (Thinks turps gun is the right name. Looks like a spray gun with a nozzle like an oil can. Used for squirting turps or other solvents around).

The rust between the double chassis is really holding up everything else I need to do. No point in cleaning and painting the inside of the chassis rails until it's sorted. The transfer case is ready to go back in but can't do that until the chassis is complete, as I need the room to move around. I have the pipe for the new brake lines but they also have to wait. I can get the flexible lines and fittings to replace the old steel air lines, but can't fit any of them either. I need to get the truck under cover to try to slow the deterioration down. There are probably sheds I could rent, but nothing nearby, and the further away it is, the less will get done. At least here I can walk out the back and I'm there.

Not sure what to do now.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Bluebell One-eight on October 14, 2018, 02:13:19 PM
Keep at it mate...... it can be discouraging BUT in the end that turns to satisfaction. Think of the admiring comments for a minute and then get back to slaughtering the metal maggots! You've put too much in to give up now. My project has been on hold because of a move, I can't  wait to get back to it
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on October 14, 2018, 03:16:28 PM
Love reading your post Greg - My project, like yours has its us and downs and some days it seems more downs than ups.  I look at the begining of your project and scroll through and look at what you have achieved, what you have learned,  and importantly what you have shared with a lot of F1 owners................ Kept my spirits up I can tell you!    ;)      I have got mine to a place where early next year registration will be undertaken and she'll be on the road.  I look back at what is achieved each year, how much further along the project gets every time work is done, and the value you add to the project.  Keep up the good work and if you weren't so far away, I"d be in the car and on the way to give you a hand!  You have certainly helped me over the time you have taken on this project.  I think I raised the post where you found the truck too - so I understand how much effort has gone into the project.  I am making a pair of abbey crane stabilising post feet as my project is missing one foot and I know so is yours - so that's one less thing to worry about too.  When I have finished I will send it over to you.  I have found that with penetrol that I have just added as much as I can and don't rinse it out, thin it if need be and add more, when painting just add more penertol to paint and keep going.  A member from this forum gave me the idea and on at least two other projects I have found that it really works, getting in where nothing else even comes close, so you are on the right track.  Keep up the great work - Oh I have found NOS wiring loom complete with the multipin plug if you are up to wiring yet - (Straight out of IH complete with the numbered loom)  Let me know if it will hekp and I will send it to you!  Cheers mate  Frank

Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on October 15, 2018, 08:48:50 AM
...

Not sure what to do about the rust between the double chassis now. It's rusting faster than I can treat it. I thought of getting a turps gun and squirting rust converter into the gap to try to kill the rust, then wash it out with lots of thinners before trying to pack zinc-epoxy primer in there. (Thinks turps gun is the right name. Looks like a spray gun with a nozzle like an oil can. Used for squirting turps or other solvents around).
...
Not sure what to do now.

Greg.

I think the only hope, is to keep squirting Penetrol into the gaps with the gun and hope for the best. Ideally flaking rust should be removed before the Penetrol can work properly.

The only alternative is to completely strip the chassis and blast it, which is probably not what you want to do. At least with spraying Penetrol you can keep working on the truck and spray every day,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Chazza on October 15, 2018, 09:07:56 AM
Well said Frank!

You are an inspiration to me as well Greg and I don't even own an AACO – mind you there is a Mk 3 for sale not that far from me, which only costs a divorce! Mmmm?

Anyway who cares about a little bit of rust? Squirt him every day and enjoy the restoration,

Cheers Charlie
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Mick on October 15, 2018, 10:00:44 AM
Remember Greg,

The tougher the fight the sweeter the victory.

Keep going mate.

You can do it !!!!!

Cheers,

Mick
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 15, 2018, 06:06:43 PM
Thanks all.
Even if I stripped it all and took it to a sandblaster or got a mobile crew around, they aren't going to get at this rust.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-tZZ5rJs/0/c539be5a/M/i-tZZ5rJs-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-tqHDzwS/0/f0a7601f/M/i-tqHDzwS-M.jpg)

As you see in the pics above, which are a before and after pic of a bit of the worst area, the chassis is made up of 2 lengths of C section steel, approximately 1/4" thick that fit together and are riveted through the vertical face.
The rust flakes that have formed have spread the lips of the C section and they remain spread once cleaned out. I used 2 foxing wedges, (blue thing in the crack in the second pic), to spread the lips then hammer on the external horizontal face which causes the layers of flakes to spring loose. I flick them out then use compressed air to remove any remaining rust dust and chunks. The steel is really tough and it takes a lot of work with the 4lb hammer to drive the wedges in and they often pop back out when I am hammering on the chassis. Even where I can get the wedge all the way in, it only opens the gap about 10mm. When I drive a wedge in, it only opens a section about 40mm long before needing a second wedge. I would need over a dozen wedges just for the bottom of the chassis rail and even then, it would only about half the length needed. With such a narrow gap, I doubt sandblasting would do much.

At work, I share a building with a group who do materials protection management. They monitor contractors doing cleaning and recoating of things like bridges, tanks and the pipes and tunnels for the hydro stations. They also test and recommend suitable protective coatings for industrial situations. I explained what I had been doing and how it didn't work. I mentioned that I was considering cleaning it all again, as best I could with the hammer and scraper, then using Rust Converter. They said it was a total waste of time. Their recommendation was to clean it as I suggested, flush it with thinners or acetone to remove any dust and moisture, and once it has dried out, mix up some 2-part Zinc-Epoxy primer and work my way along, spreading a section and forcing the mix in and squishing it around with my flat scraper so it covers both faces. I have to run the scraper along, like spreading icing with a spatula, which will remove excess primer, so I can later clamp the lips back together and tack weld them. The primer has a long working time, compared to car bog or fibreglass resin, so I don't have to worry about it going off too fast. Their other suggestion was to pump a good thick bead of sealant into the gap before clamping and welding, to keep moisture out, but that is just as likely to trap moisture in, as I can't seal the entire top, bottom and end seams of the chassis without totally dismantling the truck. (Although if I had a big, weather-tight shed, I might consider it).

On another note, I pulled a couple of the bolts that hold the bogie axle assembly to the chassis and found that some of the original bolts had been replaced, as there is a mix of metric, imperial, coarse and fine threads. The original spec bolts were Grade 5, 5/8" UNF bolts, 16 at 1-3/4" and 12 at 2".
A couple of the ones through the side of the chassis rail showed signs of wear, as if the axle assembly had been moving and the bolt rubbed where it passed through the double chassis rail. I called into our local industrial bolt pirates to pick up replacements today, by when I got home I found the 5 in the top of the box were perfect, with a section of plain shank before the thread, and the other 25 under the packet of nylocs were all thread, like the originals in the truck. Then I noticed that the 25 all thread ones were also UNC, not UNF. Too close to closing time. From now on, no matter how busy they are, I'm going to tip the damn things out on the bench and check them all.

I also found out my turps gun is properly called a degreasing or cleaning gun.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/General/n-8PbcjV/i-WxXC9PC/0/aeae030d/S/i-WxXC9PC-S.jpg)   

I'll pick one up during the week.
If I get anything done, I'll update the thread.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on October 16, 2018, 02:52:18 PM
Trucks used on cattle transport ,we used to drill and tap the rails every couple of feet for grease nipples,and pump grease between the rails.I think the heavy rust will powder and fall out once the truck is driven on the road....The only rust penetrants I know of are acids and cause rusting themselves......if really heavy rusting is happening after you chip,I would suspect fertilizer has got between the rails,and I would flush it with water from a pressure cleaner..............................One quick/ish way to remove rust without too much effort is by using a large oxy acetylene flame(spalling)......A lot cheaper that sandblasting......Play the white tip direct on the rust and it will explode off.,quite quick if you have enough heat,but protect yourself from flying redhot particles...............So,I would wash out first,then flame spall the rust,should boil off the water.........Flame spalling will leave grey (rough) metal that just needs a light wire brush to paint.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 16, 2018, 03:38:09 PM
Thanks John.
I'm going to go with a combination approach.
I'll spread short sections of the double rails with the wedges and beat the hell out of them to loosen the flakes. I'll then heat the sections with the LPG/Oxy torch I have and see what pops off.
Once that is done, I will wash it out with thinners and paint the inside with Dulux STE Epoxy. It is a Surface Tolerant Epoxy, meaning it can be painted over poorly prepared surfaces, as it encapsulates any remaining rust bits and stops them getting the oxygen they need to continue forming. I have to pay particular attention to any bolts going through the bottom of the rail, such as where the bogie axle attaches, as it could allow air and moisture to get in.
I considered trying to grit blast the gap, but I think it would have little effect due to the limited room and the angle the grit would be going in relation to the surfaces I need cleaned. I would also have the issue of any grit that gets pushed around the curve making it harder to clean out and stopping the effective re-clamping and tack welding of the 2 separate chassis rails.

One good thing is that the guys at work are going to get me a 4l tin of the STE for nothing. The local Reps like to give them samples. :)

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on October 16, 2018, 04:21:52 PM
No need for any hammering.....just play the flame direct on the rust......it must get white hot,which it does very quickly,because rust doesnt conduct heat,and it just pops off.....it will also melt and run out,but then sets solid again.,so popping off is better.................it would cost a fortune to heat a whole chassis section,and burn off all the paint......
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on October 25, 2018, 11:52:55 AM
Woohoo! Look what I received in the mail.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-tNS5C8S/0/069ac79f/L/i-tNS5C8S-L.jpg)

A brand new wiring harness, from the multi plug to the tail lights.
Thanks go to Frank (STDDIVER).

When I got the truck, a previous owner had tried to fit LED tail lights to it. He didn't know how to read and use the codes stamped on the ends of each wire, so he cut the loom off about a metre from the back of the truck and ran his own cable to the cab. Badly.
I had planned on either joining wires to the end of the loom and trying to work out what was what with a multimeter, but the copper wires I exposed were black with corrosion and broke off when I tried to clean them to solder.
Now I can run the new harness through and know I wont have any broken wires or rub-throughs. The new harness is a lot more flexible than the one on the truck too. I suppose the original IS 49 years old this year.

Thanks again, Frank.  ;)
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: dugite on October 25, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
good things sometimes happen unexpectedly  :D

onya Frank !
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on October 27, 2018, 11:24:45 AM
The army demanded decent wiring in the trucks...........our 1984 Acco 1950 had all the wiring like a bundle of spagetti,just crammed under the dash,with inline fuses in cheap plastic holders cut into the wires........and the cheap car rocker switches used to simply fall to bits,just like they did in cars..........pity they didnt save a few of the proper harnesses and toggle switches from the army trucks....and the army trucks had proper circuit breakers that reset ,not crappy 50 cent glass fuses  in clip together plastic holders the tabs would break off when opened up to check the fuses........No wonder Inter went broke.....
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: 4x4-581 on December 07, 2018, 08:10:31 PM
I believe the rear section of the harness is separate to the front?
Woohoo! Look what I received in the mail.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-tNS5C8S/0/069ac79f/L/i-tNS5C8S-L.jpg)

A brand new wiring harness, from the multi plug to the tail lights.
Thanks go to Frank (STDDIVER).

When I got the truck, a previous owner had tried to fit LED tail lights to it. He didn't know how to read and use the codes stamped on the ends of each wire, so he cut the loom off about a metre from the back of the truck and ran his own cable to the cab. Badly.
I had planned on either joining wires to the end of the loom and trying to work out what was what with a multimeter, but the copper wires I exposed were black with corrosion and broke off when I tried to clean them to solder.
Now I can run the new harness through and know I wont have any broken wires or rub-throughs. The new harness is a lot more flexible than the one on the truck too. I suppose the original IS 49 years old this year.

Thanks again, Frank.  ;)
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on December 08, 2018, 10:55:54 AM
Yes ,it is.........you can lift the cab off by simply disconnecting the Cannon plug you see there.(the other half )..Excellent wiring,as I mentioned............
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on December 08, 2018, 12:58:53 PM
Yes, I realised that when I laid it out to work out what wire went where. Tricky, as we don't have an actual wiring diagram for the 6x6's and there are a few differences.
Some of the wires connecting into the circuit breaker panel above the drivers door are a melted mess. Whoever tried to rewire the tail lights and indicators made a real mess of it. Now I can replace all that.
From what I can see, the rear section is pretty simple to make. There will be 2 for the fuel tank senders, one for the winch overload switch, 2 for indicators, 2 for brake lights, 2 for tail lights, and one for the rear convoy light.
Probably a few earth wires as well, but still pretty simple.

Minor Update.
I now have the gaps between the chassis rail layers well painted with 2 pack Surface Tolerant Epoxy.
The next step is to squeeze the lips together and run tack welds along both edges to hold them close. I just have to fix a generator before I can do that as the house wiring won't handle the draw my welder would put on it, even if it is an inverter type.
I think the AVR module is gone. It happened before, years ago, and the output voltage drops to about 25v. The problem is that the AVR module is now discontinued.
There's a QLD company making a replacement, but you also have to buy an adaptor so it connects up, and the whole unit is over $300.
I suppose the way to look at it is that afterwards, I will still have a generator that works.
Going to the Defence Transport Heritage Tasmania Xmas lunch tomorrow, so won't get anything done this weekend. :)

Oh, I also bought a Porta Power kit. Has a hand pump, a couple of rams with different extension pipes and a few different shape ends.
I have to push part of the cab roof up where its dented down, and there are a couple of large dents where someone smacked the Abbey crane into the back and side of the cab.

Will update this when I get something done.
Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on December 08, 2018, 09:17:20 PM
There is no way I would weld the flanges together...........I would just hammer the outer flange back to horizontal and leave it at that....A short in the indicators might be in the electrics under the steering wheel...........its not uncommon for the arms to come loose from the housing.........the original was mazak the replacements were plastic,and even worse ,if thats possible..........the who assy is the same as a 70 s Inter,conventional or acco..........the simple cure was to bypass the whole thing,but then it wont self cancel.....not a big deal....................a lot of generators wont run inverter welders.......in fact I found the inverter welders wont work in industrial sheds with very heavy current draw......something about phase shift ,the electrician at Tyco said.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on December 09, 2018, 02:42:53 PM
The indicator issue and melted wiring is from the previous owner trying to wire LED tail lights and indicators up while not knowing what yellow wire did what. He eventually ran his own set of wires but had no electrical understanding as when I got it, if you tried turning the indicator either direction, the flasher unit was actually switching the positive directly to earth, which blew the fuse he put in, luckily.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-gXLMGtv/0/7ee6da7a/M/i-gXLMGtv-M.jpg)

This is a pic of all his wiring from under the dash that I ripped out. I fixed it all up, using the original yellow wires and the switch out of my other truck.
I now have working front indicators, headlights, park lights and side clearance lights. Later I will fit relays and the new H4 halogen headlight lenses and bulbs.

The welder has run off a standard 10 amp wall socket at work, in the past with no problems, but my house has ancient wiring. I replaced a fluoro light last week and found that the active and neutral were fabric wrapped rubber coated wires. The earth is actually bare twisted copper that runs all over the place up in the ceiling. The switches and power points are old bakelite ones that spark when switched on and off.
Most of the wiring around the house is in steel pipe, running across the ceiling and down to the power points and switches. Running a standard 5" grinder for 5 minutes heats the house wiring up to the point that I can easily feel it if I put my hand on it, so I don't think I'll rish a welder that is supposed to run off a 15 amp line.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on December 10, 2018, 11:28:57 AM
My house was the same.....fabric and rubber wires in steel conduit........ the  thing steel conduit has going for it is that rats cant chew the wires...which is a  big issue in Qld....I also have the old bakelite switches......and I keep rebuilding them ,as I think they are better than the white plastic stuff.....Good work on the truck rebuild.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Acco 4x4 on December 10, 2018, 09:16:54 PM
Hi Greg, Good to see you are still at it! I have been eagerly awaiting the next updates..... With the AVR on the genset, have a look on ebay as they are basically all the same, different housing but otherwise the same. You should have one on your doorstep for under $50. If you have any dramas send me a message and I will see if I can help find you one at the right price. FYI sometimes depending on the type of generator, the exciter windings can loose their residual magnetism and wind produce enough current to excite the main field windings, they can be jump started with a 9 volt battery and they will be good as new again.... Keep up your good work!
Tim
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Acco 4x4 on December 10, 2018, 09:20:02 PM
Forgot to mention, I think you will find the tack welds will crack as the chassis flexes.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on December 11, 2018, 09:03:59 AM
Thanks for that. The generator part of the genset is a Markon SCD21J.
The AVR module was an AVR MD1B. It's just hard to work out what the modern replacement is.
The company who sell the replacement are called Power Drive Systems and they are in Brendale, Qld.
The AVR MD1B was superseded by the AVR MD1C. If you could point me to someone selling these, it would be great.
I'm pretty sure the issue is with the AVR module, as the last time it was used, the person who borrowed it was running a huge light off it to do concreting at night. The generator was returned and went back into the shed, as it was mum's smaller backup generator. The same person later melted the socket on the new generator with the same light. It had a filed down 15 amp plug and he plugged it into the only 10 amp socket on the generator. The AVR board itself is pretty blackened all over. It hasn't been on fire, but it looks like it's been overheated. I'll try to get a pic when I get home today.

As for the chassis rails, by tacking, I mean to run a bead around an inch long, leave a gap, another inch of weld and repeat as needed.
Now that the rust flakes have pushed the steel apart, the steel lips won't stay together when squeezed closed.
The passenger side is perfect. I could maybe run a 5 cent piece along the gap the whole length of the double rails.
I just want the driver's side to stay closed enough to get through a mechanical inspection. I'm hoping if I weld them, by the time the welds crack, the metal might stay closed.
Once welded, I will grind the tacks back and paint the edge with the epoxy paint, which should protect it as well as disguise the welds.
After that I can have a go at wet blasting the insides of the rails before painting those, too.

Greg.

Edit..

Ok here's a pic of the AVR module.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/General/n-8PbcjV/i-68tL7nB/0/e5b93145/M/i-68tL7nB-M.jpg)

Looks like a few cooked bits there. I thought it might just be dust or fine carbon deposits from the brushes or whatever, but it doesn't come off.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 09, 2019, 07:18:17 PM
Hi all.
With a lot of assistance of Acco 4x4, I had a good play around with the generator over the break. It's all a bit weird. With the AVR connected, it is putting out about 90v. When I disconnect it, I an getting 250v, no load, or 240v with a load. The problem is the voltage isn't stable and is never the same twice when measured.
I have a different AVR on the way that I should be able to mount externally and I am hoping that sorts it out.

Other than that, I have been cleaning/sandblasting and repainting lots of stuff that has been getting put aside.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-B47Ltkf/0/5cd32010/M/i-B47Ltkf-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-q3snzmD/0/3efe77d8/M/i-q3snzmD-M.jpg)

These are the before pics of the side rails and the end block of the winch assembly. The side rails are 1/2" thick steel angle iron and they bolt to and hold apart the end block and the main gearbox of the winch. The drum fits between them. They also bolt the whole unit to the chassis. As you can see, they were pretty rough.
These parts aren't really accessible once the tray is back on, so I wanted to do them right the first time. I cleaned the side rails back with the wire wheel on the angle grinder, then gave them a coat of rust converter, just to see where I had missed. Once all the rust was gone, I cleaned them all again and gave them a thick coat of the Surface Tolerant Epoxy. This time I had the white stuff, and it takes a bit to hide. I sanded it lightly, where I could, and gave it two coats of etch primer and then 2 coats of the Protec Olive Drab. Once dry, it has been sitting outside in the full sun to cure, as the Protec paint scratches very easily for a few days after it seems dry.
The end block is aluminium, so I wire wheeled the flat areas and then put it in the sandblasting box and got the rest. It also got the epoxy/etch primer/Protec paint coats. I have to put a new grease nipple in it and give the brass sleeve a bit of a hone, as it is a bit rough, but it should come up ok. You can't see it in this pic, but the over-run brake pad was stuck and I almost destroyed it, getting it out. There was no brake pad material left on it anyway. Luckily, the one off the other truck is in really good condition, so I will use it instead.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-SGsHcJd/0/28f70a44/M/i-SGsHcJd-M.jpg)

It looks pretty good. The thick epoxy and the sanding seems to fill a lot of the nicks, gouges and dents. I've been told by my coatings specialists that it's essential to sand the epoxy coating, as otherwise the primer and top coat won't stick. The extra sanding is going to be a bit of a pain, especially when I pain the insides of the chassis rails, but if I use the can of black instead of the white, if I miss anything and the top paint peels off, it should be less noticeable. Not that many people are ever likely to be under it to see. The best thing is that even if the top coat and primer peel off, the metal is still going to be protected with the epoxy. That stuff is amazing. I have a tiny speck on my glasses, and there's no way it is coming off.

The final step before I can put the winch back together and have it ready to refit, is to get a new pin for the main worm drive. The original was similar to the shear pin that was fitted to the MK3, without the groove machined into it to weaken it.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-ffcjGhP/0/b01a6448/M/i-ffcjGhP-M.jpg)

As you can see here, the original pin broke and the sprocket spun on the shaft, badly galling the inside of the sprocket and the outside of the shaft. Both have now been cleaned up and had the broken bolt removed, but I need to make a new one.
The original bolt was a bit weird. It was a 1/2" UNF thread through the sprocket and then a plain 3/8" shank through the worm drive shaft, but the bolt head was far smaller than a normal 1/2" bolt, as there is no room to get a socket on the regular sized head. My plan is the use the socket head bolt in the pic above, and turn the shank down to 3/8". I originally planned to use a longer bolt and run it right through and out the other side of the sprocket, but after the machinist who was helping me destroyed 4 different drill bits, one being a tungsten tipped one, he decided that the friction from spinning on the shaft had case hardened the inside of the sprocket. I remember it took ages to file the burrs out and his boring bar wouldn't mark it. Oh well, it was originally held with a single hole, so that's what I will go with.
The main issue now is that the guy with the lathe was a retired machinist, and his eyesight was going, so he gave all his gear to his son, who moved away.
I will check the big pedestal drill at work and see if the chuck will open enough to hold the head of this bolt. If it does, I'll spin it and try turning the lower section down with the angle grinder and a new grinding disk. Might work.
Anyway, I'll post up whatever I get into next.

Greg.
 
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on January 10, 2019, 04:23:39 PM
The original shear pins were pretty feeble...........I broke one,and went over to Oldings to get some spares.........the counter guy looked in the bin....none in stock.....said they sell dozens of them....anyway then we went into the workshop.....Oldings used to do all the Telecom trucks..........grabbed a couple of 1/2 unf bolts......took them to a linisher,linished the threads off the body,and handed then to me......he said if I wanted the lockwire hole,I could do it myself.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Acco 4x4 on January 15, 2019, 12:04:36 AM
Happy New Year Mate! May your new year of truck restorations continue to come together with good luck,  success and you see it to the end! Always exciting to read another post from you and see your handy work come together. The sooner you get yours done the sooner I can drop mine off! ?? lol ;D
Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on January 15, 2019, 05:34:31 PM
And petrol is down to $1 a liter again......although its kinda hot here for driving petrol trucks.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 15, 2019, 06:44:44 PM
Thanks all.
You're kidding about the petrol, right?
I filled up the work ute today and diesel was still 145.9 and regular unleaded was 135.9, which is down a few cents from the usual Christmas price hike.

The AVR module for the generator arrived yesterday and I bought a weatherproof box to mount it in, which I will attach to the frame somehow. There's no way the new AVR could be fitted internally, way too big.
I have the wire, connectors, spade clips and heatshrink, so hopefully I can get it sorted out this weekend. Supposed to be a few showers Friday, but fine over the weekend.

I've spent the day in stinking hot, humid, fly-filled weather, opening up a track that hasn't been maintained since the pine plantation was established.
Halfway through the job there was a dry electrical storm come through, which was really weird. Lots of rumbling and banging, but no breeze or moisture. Doesn't seem to have started any new fires, so that's a good thing.
All my contractors are doing their fire weather monitoring, and for once they aren't grumbling about it. Even they now realise how easy it is for a fire to start in the bush and how fast it could get out of control.

As for this pin for the winch, it's not actually a shear pin. The MK3 and 4 had a shear pin in the pinion and drive shaft that was designed to break and let the shaft spin freely if it was overloaded.
The F1, 2 & 5 had a different system. In order to fit the extra set of wheels under the back, they extended the chassis rails but they also moved the winch right up close to the back of the transfer case.
As it was so close, they couldn't use a driveshaft into the front like the MK3 & 4. What they did instead was to flip the worm shaft around, so the woodruff key and slot were at the front,
so they could put the brake unit on that end, then they mounted a drop-box on the back of the winch worm drive, where the over run brake used to go. This box has a sprocket that fits onto the worm shaft and it is held onto the shaft by the pin I need to make.
It has a smaller head than a regular bolt as there is no clearance to get a socket on it to do up or undo once the box is mounted. The sprocket has a 1/2" UNF thread in it and the shaft has the regular 3/8" hole.
The sprocket is driven by a chain to another sprocket in the box, that the new longer driveshaft attaches to. This second sprocket is an interesting design, as it is also the safety system. It consist of 2 plates, each with 3x 1" holes drilled through them.
In these holes are 3 large ball bearings, that transfer the rotational forces between the inner and outer plates. There are really heavy springs holding the plates together. The way it works is that when the load gets too high,
the plates roll up on the ball bearings, spreading the plates apart. The outer plate has a pin on the face that goes through a hole in the chain drop-box and presses a microswitch that cuts the ignition to the truck.
I checked the switch in mine and it works fine, but there is a break in the wire back to the cab somewhere, as when I manually short it out at the winch, it didn't cut the engine.
I'm betting that's the reason they were able to suck the winch rope in so far that it pulled the eyelet into the sheaves, spreading them, then causing the winch rope to cut down through the layers already on the drum, before exploding the bronze worm gear.
It probably didn't help that the winch rope was hooked around the end of the roller mounted to the underside of the tray, that is supposed to help lay the rope out evenly on the drum.
Somehow it was hooked on top of the grease nipple on the end and all piled up on one end of the drum before flopping over when the cable pulled tight, jamming it between the layers. That's going to be fun to get out.
I'll have to refit the eyelet to the end of the cable and use the section of old cable off the other truck to hook around a tree and take off across the paddock until I run out of rope and either pull the rope out, pull the tree over, or tear the winch out.
I might try it slowly at first, or maybe even back up to the tree and use the come-along to try to get it out. 

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: GGG on January 15, 2019, 07:10:09 PM
I like that last idea. Could you set up a video camera beforehand? It may be entertaining:-)
Geoff O.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on January 15, 2019, 11:27:56 PM
Yeah, I have a Go-Pro now, so I might make a few vids. Good way to learn about editing.

I'm quickly running out of trees along the back paddock fence. The previous neighbour was given these ones as seedlings, and planted them along his boundary. Unfortunately they were leftover plantation Eucalytus nitens, Shining Gum in SA, That Useless Pulp Crap down here.
They were bred specifically for a quick growth timber suitable for pulp production on a 12 to 15 year turn around. This means they prefer growing in clusters, which forces them to grow straight and fast. When planted out in a row like this, they go to spreading branches and low, stunted growth. These ones seem to have been constantly under attack from borers, with most branches riddled with so many holes that the bark eventually falls off and the branch dies.
Luckily for me, they are all on his side of the fence. Over Christmas, the new neighbour had a couple of interesting parties out in the paddock. One went for 2 days, shutting down at 2.30am and restarting with a BBQ lunch. There was much country and western music blared out at ridiculous volume, mixed with Johnny Cash and early Mylie Cyrus. On the second day they decided to have a burnout comp in their utes and hiluxes on the bit of bitumen road out the back. Halfway through I heard a loud bang and then a lovely metal grinding sound. Think they blew the diff in one of the hiluxes. They dragged it into the paddock and left it there.
Halfway between Christmas and New Year, we had really strong winds from the west. Luckily, this means the wind crossed my back paddock before hitting his trees. One of the bigger nitens split down the middle and landed right across the back of his parked hilux. A few days later, I came home from work and found he had cut the other half down. That was right on the fence next to the truck. There are a few others down the front, but we rarely get strong wind from the east, so I can safely park the work car there most nights. Anything from the north, east or south east, and I park out in the back paddock far away from all the dead trees.
I've been talking with one of the guys I share the building with at work. He used to be head of maintenance at the local weaving mill, until it was moved to Wangaratta, or Warnambool, some place starting with a W, and he is a trade qualified machinist, boilermaker and steam fitter, now working as a consultant to companies with metal/concrete surface protection issues. Things like bridges, hydro dams and generating stations. He lost access to lathes when the mill closed and might be interested in going halves with me in a decent lathe. We've been looking at some of the Hare & Forbes line, probably around $4-5k, and we plan on fitting the digital readout gear, similar to what was on the lathe I used to use. Our problem is convincing the guy he works for, who owns the shed we both work out of, to let us put it up on the mezzanine deck in the shed. It's unused space, and directly above the 15 amp plug as well as the 3 phase socket, if we went that way, although I prefer single phase as we can use it anywhere then.
Going to work on him this week. Point out all the useful things we could make for his damn Kombi. Not sure what they might be, but he probably won't think to ask. :)
Besides this pin I need to make, I have to replace all the rubber bushes and the metal cups that hold them, that support the transfer case. The cups look like the old head stem bearing cups on older pushbikes. The rubber bushing sits in it and the cup stops it being over tightened to the point it splits the rubber. The issue is mine are either rusted to the point of collapse, or really badly worn where the bolts were never tightened up and the slack let the transfer case assembly move around a lot. I need 15 of them. 12 for the top mounting plate, and another 3 for the round bracing rod that stops the box flexing backwards and forwards. The other issue is that the rubbers are not available. I checked the part numbers and also looked up the NSN and it seems the army had them made, or just never recorded who they got them from. I've used a few cross-reference charts and spoke to a few suppliers, but nobody has anything with similar measurements. My plan now is to get something similar in profile, with the correct size centre hole, and turn up new cups to suit.
The old rubbers looked like a disk cut out of an old thong, but thicker, with a smaller disk stuck on the bottom. They were around 1.5" across on the top with a 0.64" internal hole and the smaller bit on the bottom was 0.985" across. The whole thing was only 0.625" in overall height, but the edges were rounded to match the inside of the cup, which I suspect was just pressed tube. The more modern Nolothane ones are available with similar heights and internal diameters, but the edges are all right angles. I can easily turn up a set of new cups with the correct outer diameter where it fits into the transfer case mounting plate holes, and just machine out the inside to match the stepped Nolothane bushes.
I've been thinking about it a bit and I'm going to put the winch back in first, then the transfer case. The winch can drop in from the top easily enough, if I have someone helping to guide it as I lower it, but the bolts are a real pain to get at to tighten it up if the transfer case is already in. With the transfer case, I can slide it under the truck on the atv lift, then lift it with the crane until it is between the chassis rails. Then I can slide it forward, right up to the back of the gearbox while I fit the 2 mounting plates that attach to the chassis rails. Easy to get a socket on the heads with no transfer case in the way, and if I put them in before I lift the transfer case up, they get in the way, as the cross-member that is fixed to the top of the transfer case has to fit on top of the plates. With them bolted up, I slide the transfer case back, stick the Nolothane bushes and metal cups in place and lower it down and drop the bolts in. They are easy to get at from above and below, with the tray off.
That all sounds good, in theory. We'll just see what happens in the meantime that causes the whole procedure to change, like usual. :)

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: john.k on January 16, 2019, 02:39:52 PM
i bought a drum of petrol for the mower,and it was 99.9......diesel is still 134 tho,been waiting for it to fall so I can fill the tractor...........The rubbers are Mackay Silentrubba s..............I think Mackay is gone,so poly u is probably the only option............its a lot harder than rubber ,and wouldnt need the tin cups.............Incidentally,the rear trackrod rubbers are a Rockwell part,but were $200 each in the 80s.............I had stacks of track rods for both ACCOs and Kaisers.......unfortunately the "army green" thieves stole all the smaller acco ones.......wasnt scrap thieves ,they left lots of other more suitable scrap...........yards dont like rubber in the steel.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Acco 4x4 on January 16, 2019, 09:52:25 PM
Sounds like the karma bus swung past your pelican neighbours place.  :) You got to love it!
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on February 24, 2019, 11:17:08 AM
Hi all.
So far this season, I don't seem to have gotten anything useful done.
I'm still working on getting the generator going so I can tack weld the chassis rail layers together,.
Today I had a go using a wet sanding attachment on the Karcher to clean the loose paint and rust out of the inside face of the chassis rails so I can give it all a coat of epoxy paint.
The wet blasting attachment replaces the regular spear on a Karcher water blaster. It has a hose with a spear that you stick in your bucket of dry sand.
I have to say, it may be ok for doing small items a few inches in size, but its near useless for what I want it to do.
After about 20 minutes, I had cleaned a patch about 6" high by a foot long, and used a whole 10L bucket of sand, which I then had to clean off everything with the regular attachment.
From what I can see, the nozzle allows too much water through, reducing the pressure of the flow and velocity of the sand going to the job.
My pressure washer is on the list of models that they recommend for this attachment, so I guess its just not meant to do what I want to do with it.
I think I will just have to go back to using the grinder with the wire cup brushes and flat wire wheel attachment and then use the wet blaster on the little corners that I can't easily get into.
It's all a wet sandy bog out there now, so I will leave it to dry out and start on the wire-wheeling or maybe the welding if I can get the welder, next weekend.

Greg.
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: STDDIVER on February 25, 2019, 12:49:51 PM
Hi Greg- As I read your post I agree it is disappointing that some products create ideas that they are better than they are.  I have hired a commercial sand pot and compressor for a weekend and sometimes you can get these at very competitive rates.   ;)   With a good blasting plant, including mask and breathing system you can achieve a lot in a day or two - I did my F1 and two land rover chassis and a lot of parts in a day.  I set the job up on hard concrete base and put a wire frame with shade cloth behind the truck and parts to restrict the spread of garnet and used an industrial vacuum cleaner to collect the used garnet, filtered it through more shade cloth to keep out the chipped paint pieces and used it over again and again.  Being lazy I had an old wheelie chair which I use to sit on to do those areas you have to bend over to reach and a garage creeper to get to the underneath areas.  With the wheels and boxes removed most places were reasonably accessible.   The grit gets everywhere believe me!  I was getting fine grit out of my hair the next day after two showers.  A good quality airless spray gun means that you blast, blow, spray as you go and the finish is impressive.  I am sure you are across all of this though.  With any project keeping the high standards is always very hard but your vehicle is exceptional and from where it is now from where you started is a testimony to your patience, smarts and hard work.

Keep up the good work!
Frank
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: 4x4-581 on March 17, 2019, 12:12:51 PM
How do you post your pictures?
Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on March 17, 2019, 02:53:52 PM
I host all my pics on a Smugmug account and then paste in a link here. If you resize your pics, you should be able to upload them in your post without needing a host.

Title: Re: 180-971 F1 Crane Truck
Post by: Ravvin on March 17, 2019, 03:13:46 PM
Well, I have been doing a bit each weekend lately.
I have the insides of the driver's side chassis rail cleaned back with a wire wheel and cup brush, and I have painted the inside, top and outside with Surface Tolerant Epoxy.
Just need to clean and paint the section from where the double chassis ends and the back of the truck. And the underside of the chassis rail.
I replaced the 12 bolts that hold the rear axle assembly to the chassis on the driver's side. That took a bit. They were really stuck in the chassis.
They are in 3 groups of 4, so I would remove one group, clean the area and also the hole through the chassis, paint it, fit new bolts and then paint them also.
I replaced the old bolts with high tensile ones and used spring washers as well as lock-nuts, just to be sure.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/180-971/n-sFgXhV/i-HSXBTCN/0/88644623/L/i-HSXBTCN-L.jpg)

As you can see, they seem to have either replaced a few with whatever they had on hand, or never had the correct bolts in the first place. You can see the wear on the 2 UNC bolts at the front.
There are 2 crossmembers at the back, under the plate that the winch fairlead is bolted to. These crossmembers are shaped like a really heavy duty section of C channel and the bottom was filled to the top with dirt.
There was pretty heavy rust spalling under the dirt, which I scraped out, but I still need to wire wheel it and give it a hit with rust converter before giving it a good coat of epoxy. It's just a bad design, as there is nowhere for the dust and dirt to go, other than into the channel.
With that cleaned out, I can paint it all and work back up the passenger side chassis rails. I'm looking forward to finishing this part, but then I have to give the epoxy a light sand so the primer will stick, prime it all and then give it a coat of olive drab.
With that all done, I can see about getting a hand to clamp and tack weld the chassis rail lips together, paint them and then I can drop the transfer case and winch back in. Easy. :)

Greg.