Registry of Ex Military Land Rovers

REMLR Technical => Vehicle Markings => Topic started by: Carzee on March 31, 2014, 04:54:57 PM

Title: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Carzee on March 31, 2014, 04:54:57 PM
I was looking at photos of SVN Landy 113-130 which was one of 2 Landys att. to Det. 1 Topo Svy Tp Nui Dat. It is a GS not a Topo HT.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--fXD29JfY_4/Uzj_8f7UCqI/AAAAAAAAGAU/i8h8gTAr8lI/w1055-h610-no/113130-raa-survey-66-Nui-Dat-tent.jpg)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-leu6maqBQqA/Uzj_7XyYXwI/AAAAAAAAGAc/VjNjMIFVBDI/w688-h492-no/113130-raa-survey-66-Nui-Dat.jpg)

But then this info caught my eye:

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0-n0ZG5IsV0/Uzj_6MN-0mI/AAAAAAAAGAM/KtWD58T7kqo/w348-h337-no/1ATF-original-tac-green-roo.jpg)

"Army tactical symbols:
"The army likes its "tactical symbols" to depict unit locations and on 29 June [66] we commenced a further location plan of the 1ATF base area showing unit location with tactical symbols more or less based on the previous Nui Dat base plan but with more detail obtained from compass and pace traverses. Sergeant Dave King and Sapper Ron Smith became tactical symbol experts."

"The 1st Australian Task Force shield:

"It was in July [66] that a small task came our way that in itself certainly had no tactical significance and was no burden on our draughting resource but which was not without its significance within the theatre and beyond. This was the design and of a 1st Australian Task Force "shield" for use on report covers and, as it turned out, Task Force documents of all types. I gave the task to Sgt Dave King. Of course it had to feature a kangaroo and search as we would, we could not find a suitable shape for a kangaroo. I seem to recall that someone found an Australian penny in their trunk and the "penny kangaroo" was taken as a model. It might have been the Qantas flying kangaroo but I think not; I feel sure it was the penny.

"There was nothing particularly remarkable about the design; a simple shield featuring the then South Vietnam flag colours of red and yellow a yellow shield with a red border and the kangaroo in Aussie green leaping in full flight from left to right. One could also claim that the green and yellow were our own national colours although at that time Australia's national colours were blue and gold.

"Initially we could only reproduce the shield in black and white on the dyeline printer but it looked quite acceptable, presenting a clean, sharp image quite unmistakably Aussie. Some variations of the shield crept in such as a red kangaroo and green border but generally the design concept remained, as far as I am aware for the five-year duration of the Task Force involvement in South Vietnam. Some time in 1966/67 a metal version of the shield was made locally and fixed to a polished wooden mount (the Vietnamese were very good at producing this sort of thing). Large numbers were eventually produced and sold at a cheap price to our soldiers and others presumably. I heard at one point that they could be purchased in street trader‟s stalls in Vung Tau and Baria.

quoted from Det 1 Topographical Survey Troop's OC in SVN (66-67), R. Skitch. http://rasurvey.org/Viet

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-adIG-3leOIw/UzkCym5EwZI/AAAAAAAAGAw/h2JdC2qkquA/w517-h846-no/Sgt+Dave+King+designed+1ATF+Tacsign+1Toppo+Svy+Tp.jpg)
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Carzee on March 31, 2014, 04:59:32 PM
This is the photo I was tracking down, re the unit number 25, now confirmed as Det 1 Topo Svy Tp.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-c26ebhhYqoc/UzkD3fsrLCI/AAAAAAAAGBE/c0fw8a-LGWI/w590-h898-no/113130-rasc-1toposurvey-66-Nui-Lon.jpg)
They also had 2 number 5 trailers. Their other 109in LR ARN was not seen in the docs.
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Phoenix on April 01, 2014, 01:06:30 PM
The one with the roof on is interesting as it was noted as less doors, bows and canopy!
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Carzee on April 13, 2014, 10:48:15 AM
So much for the BBB data..

Some more details from the Det 1Topo OC Bob Skitch.

quote:
MAY 1966
My diary tells me that our Detachment returned to Sydney on Sunday 1 May [after] departing Canungra...

During our time at Canungra much of our Q Series stores had arrived [at Randwick] including our two long wheel-base Land Rovers and trailers.

All boxed gear still had to be stencilled with our unit identifying stripes (purple and green for Survey) including our soldier trunks and kit bags (sausage variety at that stage). Shiny green issue Land Rovers had to be repainted in dull matte khaki and also adorned with our colour stripes. This was done by hand with a paint brush.

On the 23 Monday afternoon we were given an intense intelligence briefing that gave us a good deal of information on Viet Cong and even communist minded organisations in Australia. The message was keep our mouths shut the walls have ears! Having been away for three weeks we were all anxious to get home.....

JUNE 1966
[the day after the VTF ferry arrives with the vehicles]
An immediate task was to sandbag the base of both Land Rovers including the driver and passenger compartments... The sandbags were lightly filled so that they would lie fairly flat on the floor. Their purpose was to afford some protection should the vehicle run over a landmine. Thankfully, that never happened.

unquote

Since the year of his tour is 'early on', there is no mention of the removal of doors and canopies.
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: AGAS 5 on April 13, 2014, 12:21:26 PM
A nice snap shot into the prep that had to be done.

wrt "less canopy, doors etc" and the BBB's, I thought that anotation was for the cencus 6005M vehicles. The contract date for those will give an approx period for their introduction.

What ever that period is will not relate to when that config was introduced to SVN.  eg  112-464, a cencus 6005M, was delivered in 1963. This of course pre dates 1ATF in SVN.

Pete
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: AGAS 5 on April 13, 2014, 12:27:56 PM
An after thought....

My comments assume Cencus 6005M were delivered from factory in that config. I guess this may not have been the case and they could have been an 'in service' cencus modification, in which case it could have occured much later than 1963.

What do you guys think ?

Pete
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Diana Alan on April 14, 2014, 02:36:29 PM
Does the ARN book at the AWM actually list the Census?

Given that vehicles in the Census 6005M configuration was only applicable to SVN and the intention was always to return vehicles to Australia I would presume that they would allocate vehicles to SVN (and census 6005M) from available unit and pool stock and not order them from the factory in that Census.  Otherwise when the vehicles returned to Australia, they would have to purchase the additional parts to restore the vehicle to the Census 6005 configuration.

Looking at the images of the relevent ARN book pages should confirm the original as manufactured Census.
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Phoenix on April 14, 2014, 04:13:07 PM
6006M is certainly in the census codes book that was, last I heard, at bandiana.  As with the similar census for the inters.

On most vehicle records it is an addition, meaning if I recall, that the equipment was removed from the vehicle in Australia to avoid storage of those said parts in the not so great for storage conditions of vietnam.
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: AGAS 5 on April 14, 2014, 06:17:51 PM
Thanks for that Richard. 6005M was for the 88 & 6006M for the 109.
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: digger on April 14, 2014, 10:51:01 PM
A nice snap shot into the prep that had to be done.

wrt "less canopy, doors etc" and the BBB's, I thought that anotation was for the cencus 6005M vehicles. The contract date for those will give an approx period for their introduction.

What ever that period is will not relate to when that config was introduced to SVN.  eg  112-464, a cencus 6005M, was delivered in 1963. This of course pre dates 1ATF in SVN.

Pete

Check out VETs arn below. 1963.... he was in the first veh/equip delivery into vietnam to do the airfield defence for the yanks... (so therefore pre dated 1ATF)..
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Mike C on April 15, 2014, 01:26:50 AM
Might I suggest you read page 159 of Mud & Dust for a summation of these census codes and their application?

I thought the 'stripped' 109 was a CC 6028G, rather than a 6006M: or have I bugg**ed that up along the line somewhere?

Mike C

Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: AGAS 5 on April 15, 2014, 06:59:43 AM
Mike, according to REMLR they both are - good pick up (6005M, 6006M & 6028G).

Digger, that's a pretty unique vehicle ! You are very lucky  :)

Pete
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Phoenix on April 15, 2014, 08:21:49 AM
GS is 6028G and FFT 6006M, I should have been clearer I suppose!
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Mike C on April 15, 2014, 12:49:32 PM
OK, thanks for that, Richard: I've learned a couple of things: I'm not yet going potty, and that 6006M was the 'stripped' FFT (Fitted For Telegraphy )!

Mike C
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Phoenix on April 15, 2014, 01:35:05 PM
Tis a boring day that you don't learn at least one thing!

We are still working through the Census codes book at bandiana, but this is what we have so far. 

http://www.remlr.com/ARN/census-all.php
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: AGAS 5 on April 15, 2014, 04:26:56 PM
The other thing to note about the cencus numbers - and this is my assessment from viewing many vehicles - is that most of those numbers were not stamped on the nomenclature plate.  eg a vehicle that was categorised as 6005M on the BBB's only had 6005 on its plate. 112-464 is an example of this.

I think the nomenclature plates mostly had the generic cencus number for GS, FFT/FFR, WKSP, Ambo etc and not the number of the more specialised variant developed in-service.

Pete
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Diana Alan on April 15, 2014, 04:42:21 PM
This is not true about about the SIII FFR at least. 

I have seen both 6006 (Truck, Utility, 3/4 Ton, GS, Fitted For Radio) without the suffix letter and my FFR is 6006B (Truck, Utility, 3/4 Ton, GS, with winch, FFR, 24 volt system) and the suffix letter "B" stamped on the nomenclature plate although you have to look to find it.

In the "Census No." field, you see the 6006 aligned to the LH margin of the field, but the "B" suffix letter is aligned to the RH margin of the field.

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Auntikinus/Army%20Land%20Rovers/SIII-FFR-30-146/PICT1849.jpg)
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Diana Alan on April 15, 2014, 04:51:54 PM
I must also point out, that the "B" suffix was not an In-service mod because in the SIII, the vehicles fitted with winches don't have the brush guard angle bracket welded to the top of the chassis dumb iron.

This may be particular to the SIII models and not to the SII/SIIA models that were in service before them and that actually went to SVN.
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: AGAS 5 on April 15, 2014, 05:06:01 PM
I think the nomenclature plates mostly had the generic cencus number for GS, FFT/FFR, WKSP, Ambo etc and not the number of the more specialised variant developed in-service.

Most of those cencus numbers appear no where, other than in the BBB's.

Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Phoenix on April 16, 2014, 10:05:46 AM
Vehicles form the factiry for the most part wore data plates and census numbers to match how they were built. 

THe ceremonials for example were not stamped 6014, they all have their original plates.  B suffix for with winch for example is pretty common to appear on the plates, even if the description doesn't necessarily match.  One example is a 2a ambulance at bandiana whose data plate wording reads series 2.

So it is the vehicles who changed census numbers during their service life that normally were not re stamped, but noted in the vehicle log and ARN ledger.
Title: Re: Info about the 1ATF Tac sign
Post by: Carzee on April 16, 2014, 03:17:19 PM
Most of those census numbers appear nowhere, other than in the BBB's.

I think the census numbers are put in effect by the people in charge of Movements and stores. In a similar thing, current ADF members are all assigned ECNs. Codes are integral to organisation theory.

Here is the way Ordnance used the census numbers (in Vung Tau).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8IU0nN5LHB0/UUJ5Xn9YgOI/AAAAAAAACpk/GiRDbh27UB4/w1461-h500-no/2aod-forms-awm.jpg)

In contrast, here is a snip from a Infantry unit diary (in Nui Dat) showing their vehicle "deployment" or allocation. Note that the man who prepared the table has ignored the census system and assume everyone knows whats what.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JPSNy10GaMs/UUb6sWF_TFI/AAAAAAAACsk/Jv89e127gTk/w1186-h687-no/1RAR-dec65-vehicles-deployed.jpg)

This telex message ignores census codes but uses specific ARNs.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-H3wHNxfEEp8/UXaFW8XwvVI/AAAAAAAADB8/mfdImBcaT2E/w827-h567-no/blr-backload-vs-cannibalisation-oct-66-g.jpg)

Most shipping manifests do not use the census numbers either - they also rely on ARNs
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FDfeAeP5sPw/UutxvF1IuwI/AAAAAAAAGGA/_DtKfgVLIFs/w1080-h898-no/awm-vtf-load-www.jpg)

I would guess that nowadays the NSN codes trump everything; perhaps nowadays Movement Control guys have ditched the clipboards and just scan bar codes on vehicles and stores.